OMG Not another 99 cent store!!

cool the kid

MHA makes a damn good point

You can't move into a cultural enclave and complain about them not catering to you... and it's a little goofy to dismiss the businesses not catering to you as 'low quality'.

Plus again it's not like Franklin isn't a little walk away.

Take stock in what Nostrand has to offer. I come back to CH just for jerk seasoning & chicken patties

mr. met

1. The fact that nostrand has businesses and foot traffic isn't in dispute

2. Nostrand doesn't have everything

3. Demand for certain businesses dictates whether they should be there

4. No one wants to boycott the new store, so it doesn't really compare to the situation with the pawn shop. If the store flourishes, so be it.

5. Das Kapital is supposed to determine everything. That's the point of this thread -- according to data, demand doesn't seem to be being met.

cool the kid

Nostrand doesn't have everything for mr. met. But for the majority of people who live near it it has enough.

There aren't that many "urban" bars or clubs on Nostrand either. The only one I can think of is Starlight Lounge, which I believe closed down. Nostrand just doesn't seem conducive to becoming a Washington or Vanderbilt. Trust, business folks are looking east, but just not seeing the environment they would like to open something up on Nostrand.

whynot_31

CTK, I haven't read anyone propose that the demographics of Nostrand would support the types of businesses recently added to Franklin and Vandy.

Such businesses would probably fail on Nostrand.

Many of us seem to believe that the areas current demographics could support a greater variety of businesses.

.....this stops short of Krowonhill's assertion that new businesses should be encouraged to bring a greater mix of people in.

This "serve the current residents first" model of development is one I like in my role as an potential businessman because it seems to involve little risk and few assumptions.

nostrandpark

KOH:

The data speaks for itself.

Respectfully, you read the data wrong (as I clearly pointed out in my previous post). You read the community wrong. You read me wrong.

Though every single piece of documentation that I posted clearly supports what I was saying – that folks here want more diverse options on Nostrand than what is currently available – there still seems to be lingering questions, primarily about my motivations -

this despite the fact that what I wrote is consistent (1) with dozens upon dozens of conversations that I have had with numerous merchants on Nostrand Avenue, (2) recurring conversations with multiple property owners on Nostrand Ave, (3) multiple community board meetings that I have attended, (4) a survey conducted by the community board (the body that represents the community, (5) conversations that I have had with too many local residents to count and (6) data by a renowned retail consulting firm. Rather than just acknowledge that you got it wrong, you continue the attack on my character, which you know nothing about.

Thought I'd done my diligence, but please let me know how much higher these standards are that I have to meet before I can speak. Should I be more involved in the community than I am (see Community Pride Day, which I planned from start to finish. I'm in the picture at the bottom). When the data speaks for itself, what does it matter that I'm the daughter of an immigrant? That my grandfather was a taxi driver? That half my family was born in and still lives in the ghetto?

I honestly respect and appreciate that you challenged me, but then to not acknowledge that ultimately you were wrong, and to continue the attack and not know anything about me is counterproductive.

When polled by the community board, 63% of the residents polled - who've lived here an average of 22 years (not the hipsters and recent professional transplants that you suppose) - indicated that they do not shop on Nostrand and similar commercial corridors because "I can't find what I want there". 47% begrudge the "poor quality of goods and services" and the "lack of selections". Not to mention that the unmet demand for bars and restaurants in the neighborhood is one of the highest across various categories. Yet you declare that "Nostrand has EVERYTHING" and that lower-income residents do not "want" or "need" bars or restaurants.

Well, kudos to you (and MHA) for your omniscience. For knowing more than the community board. Knowing more than the property owners. Knowing more than the consulting company. Knowing more than the business owners. Knowing more than the property owners. Knowing more than the residents. Knowing more than me (heck, even knowing more about me than me).

Next time I embark on a project like this, I'll remember to go straight to the TRUE source for my information.

-----

Oh and MHA - regarding the "irony" of overlooking the cultural niche along Nostrand - as whynot pointed out - see Destination Nostrand. Read more. Type less.

nearnostrand

As some one who lives "near nostrand" - the avenue that I walk everyday, I would like more choices. I occasionally pick up an item at the 99cent store, but IMHO, the 99 Cent Stores and other discount stores that exist on Nostrand are pretty much all the same, they are well represented in number and generally cater to a specific buyer. If I had my druthers, I'd prefer not to have another 99cent/bargain store when there are so many other economic possibilities. The fact of the matter is that there are a large amount of untapped dollars that leave the neighborhood for shopping and entertainment on a daily basis. I know mine often do. (A girl can only eat so much curry and roti.)

It would be great for everyone involved if more of that money from residents who started moving in about 10 years ago, thus slightly altering the demographics, stayed in the community. The question shouldn't be "discount store" OR "upper scale specialty shop," but how do we foster a landscape that accepts and encourages both. Did anyone else go to the, I think it was called, "Fulton First" meeting, at Restoration about 7 or 8 years ago wherein the representatives we so stunned by the data showing the large amounts of middle class money that had been steadily moving into the northern side of Crown Heights? They mentioned a huge gap between residents in the neighborhoods surrounding Fulton Street, those below the poverty line, and those above 100k while asking how do you satisfy both? More people with disposable incomes are moving in and the same question has yet to be answered. The money is here. It would be nice to keep it here.

nearnostrand

In regard to Crow Hill Bistro, just like Tavern on Nostrand before them, it's my feeling that they didn't read their customer correctly. Many younger 20-30 somethings, and even 40 somethings, those who use restaurants like kitchens, are looking for a more relatable atmosphere. Less fine finishes, less catalogue furniture, a little more home spun. It's not the weekend special night out customer that a neighborhood place needs, but the anytime regular who feels just as comfortable eating in their Chuck Taylor's as their Cole Haan's.

I wonder if we could support a good Japanese ramen shop on Nostrand.

mrs whynot

By way of disclosure, I was white and middle class as a child (still am though not a child). I grew up in a neighborhood that was more diverse (racially, economically) than most in NYC - though is not now. My childhood took place in the 1970s.

I am all for a diversity of places to shop. I don't have anything against a 99 cent store, but don't desire another one. And largely my wish list of stores mimics the type of places that I remember shopping at as a kid.

There was Williams Bar-B-Que chicken, Murray's appetizing shop, Morris Brothers children's clothing store, Rosen Brothers meat store, the Towne Shop (when shopping for clothes with Mom), Party Cake and Lichtmans bakeries, West Side Camera and West Side Judaica. There were a couple of restaurants Chun-Cha-Fu and Taj Mahal are the only ones I can name though there was also a steak shop. There was a Five-and-Dime (Woolworths). There were a couple of bookstores, though the one I went to most was around the corner from the New Yorker Movie theater. A couple of places that I can't name anymore I can still remember the names of the owners/people behind the counter - the pet shop was owned by Tom and later his daughter Kate, the toy store by Jim. And there were a couple of supermarkets - Red Apple, Daitch (sp?) and Key Food and a bank - Dime. There were also a lot of places we did not shop.

What strikes me about the list is that I can name places and workers who I haven't seen in decades. It is also diverse (I've not named a single place more than four blocks from the apartment in which I grew up) and did not involve chain stores for the most part.

But here is one issue with the list, almost none of the places still exist. They have been replaced by up-scale chains. And truthfully, that neighborhood needs another bank or Banana Republic about as much as Nostrand needs another 99 cent store. (Again just my opinion.)

A desire for shopping diversity hits up against two factors that did not exist back in days of my childhood - the big box (Target) and the category killer (Toys-R-Us). I don't know if my parents would have gone to Morris Brothers for my clothing if a Target had existed. And for low-income people, having the choice of lower-cost places to shop, both in the neighborhood and outside of it, is imperative. But for those of us who can afford it, there is a lot to be said for the personal service at Sisters rather than the discount at Lowes.

This brings up my question - one that I think is at the heart of Nostrand Park and many other of the people posting. How do we foster diverse economic development? One glimmer of hope is that the populace at all economic brackets in Brooklyn knows how to eat at non-chain restaurants. How do we similarly encourage shopping for everything else in the same way? And trust me, I don't have the answer to this.

eastbloc

i am tired of so many inoccuous discussions in this forum getting somehow get wrangled into being an Us vs. Them dichotomy. it's obvious that that's really all some people want to talk about. and that's fine. people can talk about whatever they want, but i'm not going to stop being annoyed about it.

Amen.

eastbloc

Next time I embark on a project like this, I'll remember to go straight to the TRUE source for my information.

Worker's Vanguard? The Militant? Or maybe Z-Magazine?

When you're armed with the ideology of class struggle mixed with subjective experience, who needs reason and fact?

snowboardqueen

As NearNostrand pointed out:

more people with disposable incomes are moving in and the same question has yet to be answered. The money is here. It would be nice to keep it here.

After moving to CHN from ParkSlope, nearly 2 yrs ago, it's simply doesn't make sense the amount of time and $ I spend shopping in my former neighborhood because of items I can not find on Nostrand or Franklin Ave.

And many times I'm referring to the most basic of basic items. It makes no sense, that for a simple non-breaded, no sauce of any kind, basic grilled chicken breast sandwich - I'm in Park Slope.., yet again.

I can't find 1 place on Franklin or Nostrand Ave to buy a simple meal of baked or grilled fish or chicken that's not fried or cover with sodium laden sauces. 1 simple, basic health conscious meal.

The only business I've found that serves fresh grilled vegetables is Abigal's Wine Bar.

As much as I've come to appreciate Caribbean cuisine, since moving here, I would like a better balance of choices.

It seems longtime residents and new comers are echoing the same sentiment - that we would like more diverse business's that serve better quality goods on Nostrand Ave.

And it seems, until that need is truly addressed, there will continue to be large monetary "leakage" into other neighborhoods commercial's strips - that could be well spent on Nostrand Ave.

whynot_31

In my fantasy role of businessman looking for a location, I hear you loud and clear SnowboardQueen and NearNostrand!

Mrs. Whynot and I have combined your input with our existing impressions of the neighborhood and come up the following fantasy story line:

We dreamt the lease of the Crown Fried Chicken located at EP and Nostrand is to expire on 5/1/11. However, the tenant -landlord relationship has grown sour.

In fact the following conversation between the landlord (LL) and the manager of Crown Fried Chicken (CFC) occurred just yesterday:

LL to CFC: "You got get your employees to stop dumping grease down the drain. This is the third time I have had to call a plumber in the last 3 months"

CFC to LL: "you are stupid, that does not cause the drain to clog"

LL to CFC: "I am stupid?! You are stupid for calling me stupid! I am not going to renew your lease May 1st. As stated in your lease, I will inform you by Feb 1 of my intention to not renew your lease. Ha!"

As a result, this property has become available and I have decided that it would be an excellent location for my future business.

....to be continued....

booklaw

Wait, this is all in your dream, right?

nostrandpark

The irony is I could not find a 99 cent store! I am sure they exist, but, where are the countless numbers of them griped about?

Hmmm..., let's take a li'l virtual tour, shall we?

Atlantic and Pacific

Dean and Bergen

Bergen and St. Marks

St. Marks and Prospect

Park and Sterling

(note this one is closed, but the new one will be a couple doors down)

Sterling and St. Johns

That's 11 within a 10 block span. And that does not include the numerous African variety stores, which generally are smaller outfits that sell the same type of merchandise.

whynot_31

Damn, Krowonhill and MHA just keep getting owned, like they deserve.

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booklaw to whynot wrote: Wait, this is all in your dream, right?

Yes, for now.

....but I already have some good ideas for whoever might somehow get a hold of the CFC site.

What are folks ideas as to what they would put in there?

Feel free to photoshop google's photo to reflect your ideas.

My ideas for the site are being finalized in my head.....

I'll reveal my master plan later and keep you in suspense for now.

mr. met

Lol @ all the pictures

mha

Chuckle away,Whynot. But if you laugh too hard you will miss my point: The IRONY of Nostrand Park's post is that NONE of the photgraphs here are of 99 cent stores ON NOSTRAND avenue; which was the point I made. I walked on NOSTRAND Avenue, and there were few 99 cent stores to be found ON NOSTRAND AVENUE. Instead of photgraphs of 99 cent stores on NOSTRAND, Nostrand Park illustrates pictures of 99 cent stores in OTHER areas. No one is 'owned' here except Nostrand Park. Pun intended.

Is it me, or is it not a gripe of GRAND proportions to kvetch an immigrant coming in and opening their own business? Nostrand park trumpets their involvement in their community, yet kvetches about '...the numerous African variety stores...' in the community. What kind of sentiment is this!? And on what basis does he/she feel that they have the 'right' to expect different types of businesses in the community? What rational sense of privilege does Nostrand Park think they possess? Is it rational to approach a capitalist entity expecting services, as if Walgreens, Walmart, Target, etc, are social services owing an obligation to any community, and not capitalist conglomerates in bed with other conglomerates undercutting small businesses -- the backbone of this country? So with a fancy demographic study dictating what consumers want and 'expect', the capitalist conglomerate tentacles are to provide?? Doesn't this reveal a level of -- at the least -- class bias here? Just because YOU don't like it, it's not cool? WTF?

No, that's not the way the free market works. If you harken back to the early days of the other immigrant groups who found their way on Nostrand Avenue, and Franklin Avenues, and other merchant-driven businesses, mono-merchant selling is nothing new. Shucks, maybe everyone wasn't selling loosie cigarettes and beers, but they were all selling the same things. Just a different sort of homogeny for the time...

And here's the thing: I understand the groan of 'oy - not ANOTHER bodega', but it's one thing to have that opinion and yet another to think that public policy ought to dictate what comes here. And admittedly, I walk the line here, because if Nostrand Park said that emprical evidence shows there is a link between 99 cent stores and crack addiction, or 99 cent stores and the rise in crime (a la pawn shops), I'd say, 'okay, maybe public policy ought to dictate a change'; but Nostrand Park is trumpeting Syd's Sandwiches merely because it meets his/her bourgeois sensibilities, which, if you ask me, sounds like a narcissist's cry for change, and not a PRACTICAL call for change...

I can't get with that. If you walk northwards on Nostrand, there is a brother who had a coffee shop that recently went under; now that irks me, but hey, like Whynot said blithely in response to Nairobi's Knapsack's closing some months ago, 'the free market reigns...' So Whynot, why is it that YOU ignore your own free market rhetoric here?

I'll TELL you why. It is ignored because the businesses being opened don't appeal to boojie hipster sensibilities. If instead of 99 cent stores, Nostrand Park showed pictures of Pine Tree facsimilies, I doubt the rhetoric attached would be decrying the number of Pine Trees in the neighborhood, but would be instead saying, "Yippee! Look at all of these great Pine Tree stores in our community!" So yeah, NP's argument is emblematic of CLASS bias. It's undeniable. So I say, if there is a market for a yet ANOTHER 99 cent store on Nostrand Avenue, then what that means is that THOSE whom shop in it DEMAND it; The FREE MARKET REIGNS; and THAT's the hidden lynchpin of Nostrand Park's argument; that POOR people are so prevalent in that area, that there could afford to be yet ANOTHER 99 cent store, and Nostrand park wishes such was not the case; that he/'she wishes the hipsters would come their way and supplant the poor folks looking to buy near-expired Poland Spring gallon bottles of water for 99 cents, cuz at Pine Tree, that sucker is twice the price...

booklaw

There may be class bias, depending on how one chooses to define the term. But if there is bias on behalf of the middle class, and/ or the professional class, in favor of greater variety, then any preference on behalf of either the working class or the unemployed class for an infinite number of 99 cent stores would equally be "class bias."

mha

Agreed, but if such is the case, how do you traffic free enterprise? I take issue with someone bemoaning an immigrant trying to fulfill the tenets of the American dream just because they want fois gras and French bread on Nostrand Avenue....

Mr. Met, what goods or service do you see absent on Nostrand Avenue?

I think on its face the fact that CTK agrees with me is good comfort here... : ) Y'all betta recognize....

mha

Regarding whynot's request that I answer what remedy ought to exist for businesses. I think that public policy should impel that landlords do something about the quality of the property that they rent. I am sure innumberable health, hygiene, fire and logistic code violations exist, but are ignored; or, if there in existence, that little is done to impel that they are remedied.

You want upscale aesthetic, well then, ensure that a business doesn't have merchandise overflowing on the sidewalk and posing an impediment to egress -- which is the norm on Nostrand Avenue. Ensure that scratched plexi-glass windows are not the norm; that there has to be correlation between safety and visibility. These are the sort of quality of life changes that are NOT class specific, and ought to be what our elected officials are focusing on. In the stead of laser-like focus on the marginal, tangible issues, politicians focus on pie-in-the-sky bullshit like 'change' in the intangible abstractum, as if they are the public policy messianic equivalent to Jesus, or even bigger, Obama, when in fact, they are so incapable of even getting the snow off the ground.... I want Nostrand Park to reflect on these issues, and not whether big business should put a Tar-che' (i.e. Target) on Nostrand Ave.

davidb

This just in - actually this news is about three weeks old, but there are now two storefronts for rent on the Nostrand Block btw Sterling Place and St. Johns. If anyone has ever noticed, this is about the busiest foot traffic block along the strip (what with the Met Food Store across the street, a fish monger, the Chinese takeout joint and the Trinidadian Bake shop and yes a recently established 99c store that NP corrrectly photographed and located). Whatever types of businesses folks think ought to establish and open on the strip, this is about as prime an opportunity as one can get. And with apologies to Mr and Mrs. WhyNot that we won't have to wait for your dream business, the Crown Fried Chicken on the corner of EP and Nostrand was turned into a MetroPCS about 18mos ago. So instead turn your attention and fantasy business idea onto these two locations....otherwise one can foresee another branded cellphone store coming just to be close to T-Mobile and MetroPCS! See even "national chains" exert a herd mentality when it comes to where they locate their businesses...

mr. met

You're calling nostrand park a liar? Just want to be clear.

mr. met

MHA: are you just going to ignore all the data nostrand park posts?

And do everyone a favor and stop saying "hipsters" and "upscale." just say "white people." at least be honest.

snowboardqueen

MHA,

Dude, are you truly serious?

The IRONY of Nostrand Park's post is that NONE of the photgraphs here are of 99 cent stores ON NOSTRAND avenue;

- MHA

ALL the photos that she posted are of .99 cents stores that are ON Nostrand Ave. from Fulton to Eastern Parkway.

Perhaps you should re-visit Nostrand Ave and calmly and with a clear head, see that every pictured posted above is of .99 cents store that are on Nostrand Ave.

MHA, seriously, I've given you the benefit of the doubt in the past of perhaps confusing facts.., but now it seems quite clear that you will resort to saying anything in a desperate attempt to be right - even when every fact clearly illustrates that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You obviously do not even frequent Nostrand Ave on a regular basis. If you did, you would immediately recognize every .99 cent store ON NOSTRAND Ave that she photographed and posted above.

Sorry the facts do not conform the personal ideology you desperately want someone, anyone it appears, to care about.

nostrandpark

Chuckle away,Whynot. But if you laugh too hard you will miss my point: The IRONY of Nostrand Park's post is that NONE of the photgraphs here are of 99 cent stores ON NOSTRAND avenue; which was the point I made. I walked on NOSTRAND Avenue, and there were few 99 cent stores to be found ON NOSTRAND AVENUE. Instead of photgraphs of 99 cent stores on NOSTRAND, Nostrand Park illustrates pictures of 99 cent stores in OTHER areas. No one is 'owned' here except Nostrand Park.

Ummm, actually, MHA, those were ALL ON Nostrand Avenue. (You'll even note that two pictures include the Nostrand address and another includes the Nostrand street sign). What I listed were the cross streets. You may want to rewalk the district, if you ever really did.

I actually do not disagree with your point about Pine Tree. In fact, it’s a topic that we are exploring in “Gentrifying Brooklyn”. Not to mention that prior to this, I wrote a post called "coffee shops versus hair salons" exploring a recent article on Brownstoner about the number of coffeeshops in Park Slope approaching infinity, and the contradiction that the proliferation of coffeeshops is acceptable and the proliferation of hair salons is not. The post is to be published.

What I don’t get is why, as mr. met inquires, you ignore every piece of evidence that discredits your silly posts. Just like you ignored that the pictures were obviously from Nostrand Ave. Ironic indeed. Oh well. My life continues. In the end your desperate need to appear right in the face of being tragically wrong is beyond my ability to comprehend or address. Please do continue to walk down Nostrand Avenue purposefully blind to what is really going on.

snowboardqueen

I was raised to view all individuals with empathy and respect and to not kick anyone, especially when they are down.., so I will say this as respectfully as possible, given the unique circumstances..,

MHA, what ever ails you, there is more than likely a medical prescription for it, diagnosed by a qualified practitioner...., if help is sought.

But please stop trying to use the many valid issues that affect Crown Heights and the residents who reside here, as an excuse to spread your particular brand of crude, vulgar, insular, myopic, short sighted, emotionally driven irrational arguments as some sort of carefully research facts that truly address any of the issues at hand.

nostrandpark

You're calling nostrand park a liar? Just want to be clear.

More specifically, I believe I'm being called a boojee liar.

cool the kid

Lol

:popcorn:

whynot_31

davidb wrote: This just in - actually this news is about three weeks old, but there are now two storefronts for rent on the Nostrand Block btw Sterling Place and St. Johns. If anyone has ever noticed, this is about the busiest foot traffic block along the strip (what with the Met Food Store across the street, a fish monger, the Chinese takeout joint and the Trinidadian Bake shop and yes a recently established 99c store that NP corrrectly photographed and located). Whatever types of businesses folks think ought to establish and open on the strip, this is about as prime an opportunity as one can get.

...while I am disappointed that I was unable to benefit from CFC's disappearance, I believe my business will do well at these locations as well.

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Meanwhile, regarding the changes that NostrandPark would like to see, whenever she is questioned about her motivations and desires for the strip, she has presented evidence that she is:

a. entitled to her opinion.

b. expressing the views and desire of many people.

nostrandpark wrote: When polled by the community board, 63% of the residents polled - who've lived here an average of 22 years (not the hipsters and recent professional transplants that you suppose) - indicated that they do not shop on Nostrand and similar commercial corridors because "I can't find what I want there". 47% begrudge the "poor quality of goods and services" and the "lack of selections". Not to mention that the unmet demand for bars and restaurants in the neighborhood is one of the highest across various categories.

As a result of her consistent ability to respond to queries with thought out, evidence based responses, I continue to perceive her as someone who has built a megaphone to give CH's diverse community a voice.

Obviously, my views are in sharp contrast to those of MHA and Krowonhill, who seem determined to portray her efforts as someone simply yelling into a megaphone on behalf of people she has never met and knows nothing about.

Like Nostrandpark, I do not know why they continue to insist on portraying her in this manner. However, in my role of wanna be businessman, I frankly don't care about petty squabbles.

MHA and Krowonhill-

I completely agree with you that there are large numbers of people in CH who lack a voice and are in need of assistance. Nostrandpark (and many other individuals and non-profits) consistently reach out to them.

They consistently find that they want job programs and government intervention.

However, this is not the goal of the small business owner I dream of being. Using actual money and expertise that I lack, real small businesses will be attracted to the strip primarily on the basis of whether it will "MAKE ME MONEY".

But, I have now come to the time in this post when I will wish people luck:

I wish the owners of Nairobi's Knapsack's better luck in their next venture.

I wish the owners of Pine Tree similar luck in their present venture.

I everyone luck in getting CH's poor to advocate for themselves, and getting them to take active roles in their own futures.

I hope to finish my ideas for the vacate storefronts by this evening. I think SnowboardQueen and NearNostrand are potential customers.

mha

Actually, I took as your description of the location of these stores where the stores were. I did not know you were referring to 99 cent stores on Nostrand Avenue. In that sense, you are right, and I am wrong. Those stores are on Nostrand Avenue.