Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear?

whynot_31

So far, this protest has provided nothing to undermine.

It is merely showing the police and the left at it worst.

Of course, vested members of each group are immune to criticism about how they could improve.

Minority of police: Those girls deserved to be tear gassed.

Minority of those who believe wall street is in need of reform: sleeping on Wall Street will make a difference and be constructive in solving the problem.

boygabriel

Greenwald speaks to your lack of respect for the protest.

But I think you're immune to the criticism.

whynot_31

Greenwald has been unable to change my mind.

I do sincerely hope that the police and the protesters decide this is a lose - lose soon.

If they promise to blame the rain, I promise to order both sides pizza.

The media is stating that the protesters really seem to like pizza, and cops have been scene in pizza places for decades.

Maybe a Pizza Summitt would end this?

whynot_31

Boygabriel said:

No, he offered thoughtful analysis of why many on the left are enjoying jumping on, criticizing and/or undermining Occupy Wall Street.

Such as yourself.

I finally have something in common with left. Politics really does make strange bedfellows.

I feel so dirty all of the sudden.

boygabriel

whynot_31 said:

Greenwald has been unable to change my mind.

Shocking.

I'm pretty sure the protesters feel the same way about your thoughtful Mother Jones advice.

In the meantime, it will continue to be a grassroots protest, started by people who can afford to take time off work (or can't find work to begin with), that organizes itself as it goes along.

Like almost every major protest in the history of the West.

But hey, they didn't send you a personal, engraved policy paper so I'm sure they're not worthy of your respect.

whynot_31

Code Pink and Move On have yet to send me such an invite, and I respect them.

Hmmmm

boygabriel

The idea that if they produced a policy paper you'd respect them is quite amusing.

You really are my very own David Brooks.

whynot_31

Policy paper?

At this point, if they merely cut and pasted sections of something like the Port Huron statement and called it their own, my respect for them would increase.

Knowing a good document to plagiarize takes skill.

P.S. I didn't even know who David Brooks was until I googled him just now.

boygabriel

You are a serious and wise person.

Hopefully these rascals and their useless protest heed your sage advice.

whynot_31

Is this the part where everyone except the protesters gets blamed for the externalities capitalism again?

...the part where we are all assumed to be FOR the bank fraud/poverty/homelessness/police brutality/whatever because we aren't at the protest and give our reasons? (this is my favorite part)

Yes, I do hope the protesters are open to advice, and seek out "elitist, establishment" professionals who might know what they are doing. They should not come to me, but if they do, I'll help them as best as I can.

I'm a nice guy

boygabriel

I didn't say they should come to you, I said they should heed your sage advice.

To date you've deemed their protest useless.

This whole thread is an exercise in how to criticize people who are out there making their opinion heard without actually doing anything to help them, while making yourself feel more serious and wise by being cynical and describing them as nothing more than "entertainment" for you.

whynot_31

I feel no obligation to support people or methods that are not worthy of my support; My support must be earned.

...even my criticism must be earned.

While they have successfully earned my criticism, they have not come anywhere near earning my support. To remedy this, I have given them advice on how they could get me on their side.

....it is my experience that many causes want me on their side, but if they do not want me, I will support someone else.

armchair_warrior

I'm sure they are winning against wallstreet. maybe wallstreet will pack their bags and put their heads between their thousand dollar pants and run towards Europe or some tropical paradise.

the protesters sure learn them and teach them their place.

peaceful protest for the win!!!

whynot_31

AW-

Our present situation shows that externalities of unbridled capitalism are not morally acceptable. While I do not believe the current protest on Wall Street will effectively assist the government in empowering the SEC, OR cause bankers to consider the long term effects of their actions, there are non-violent methods and regulations that could successfully move us toward a better society.

While I am not a utopian dreamer or an anarchist, I am also not a cynic or fatalist.

I believe that the banking and finance industries can be controlled to greater degree than they are now, and (if done correctly) said methods would not cause the industries to merely leave the country.

If tropical paradises of semi naked women exist, I seek to leave the bankers here. I (along with my wife and dog) will move.

armchair_warrior

real change could of happen if they let those fools swim in their own bad bets. instead they got rewarded for their political connections towards both parties.

short term pain vs long term damage.

look at europe now. lol long term.

this didn't happen in the Asian financial crisis. and the imf said at the time, this is why we don't have asian head of imf because they wouldn't do the hard choices. you need a outsider thinking etc...

Too bad imf and world bank and western institutions aren't taking their own advice.

the same jerks who stuff the government are from financial institutions who they are suppose to help reform LOL and keep watch.

whynot_31

Yup.

Campaign reform is needed, and equally elusive.

Banking reform must occur globally in order to be most effective.

Regulatory agencies must be empowered to enforce their regulations.

whynot_31

Boys and Girls,

I hope you had the opportunity to watch Al Jazeera's episode I linked a few pages ago, because it is now time to watch your second homework assignment on the financial crisis that is partially responsible for this mess.

Al Jazeera's episode two of Meltdown: "A Global Financial Tsunami"

I hope you have a good connection.

boygabriel

whynot_31 said:

I feel no obligation to support people or methods that are not worthy of my support; My support must be earned.

...even my criticism must be earned.

While they have successfully earned my criticism, they have not come anywhere near earning my support. To remedy this, I have given them advice on how they could get me on their side.

....it is my experience that many causes want me on their side, but if they do not want me, I will support someone else.

Right, you are agree that we have serious problems on Wall Street and with investment banks, but you can't be bothered to help these folks.

In fact your only concern with them to date is to mock them in a public forum.

Greenwald was spot on.

boygabriel

armchair_warrior said:

real change could of happen if they let those fools swim in their own bad bets. instead they got rewarded for their political connections towards both parties.

short term pain vs long term damage.

look at europe now. lol long term.

this didn't happen in the Asian financial crisis. and the imf said at the time, this is why we don't have asian head of imf because they wouldn't do the hard choices. you need a outsider thinking etc...

Too bad imf and world bank and western institutions aren't taking their own advice.

the same jerks who stuff the government are from financial institutions who they are suppose to help reform LOL and keep watch.

Correct, real change will happen when there is a political price to pay for supporting the banks as they destroy our economy.

Perhaps a public grassroots movement could help make this happen......

whynot_31

Boygabriel said:

Right, you are agree that we have serious problems on Wall Street and with investment banks, but you can't be bothered to help these folks.

In fact your only concern with them to date is to mock them in a public forum.

Greenwald was spot on.

I feel no need to help people who are going about solving any problem the wrong way.

I feel entitled to mock people who believe that a solution that works for one problem with work for all problems.

I support those who I feel come up with intelligent solutions to complex problems.

armchair_warrior

lol the republicans already destroy the tea party from within when it started as a grassroots movement and the dems lol didn't help it out a bit from the media prospective by making them mostly to look like fringe nuts.

tea party movement was more of a libertarian movement to begin with they were mostly like ron paul supporters in the beginning but things change quickly when the two sides got down with it.

boygabriel

whynot_31 said:

I feel no need to help people who are going about solving any problem the wrong way.

No solution can be used to solve all problems; Different problems have different solutions.

Not only that, you've felt the need to mock them publicly for days now.

boygabriel

armchair_warrior said:

wrong thread for some reason.

The Tea Party was never really a grassroots movement.

It was funded by the Koch Brothers, the biggest Republican organizers and financiers in the country, in direct opposition to Obama's push for health care reform.

Also the tea party never really advocated for anything that wasn't already part of the Republican Platform.

Smaller govt. Lower taxes. Privatize everything. End social services, blah blah blah.

On the other hand, people arguing for real banking reform and policies to address our massive wealth disparities are most certainly breaking away from the Democratic platform, and Obama specifically.

whynot_31

Boygabriel said:

Not only that, you've felt the need to mock them publicly for days now.

I will mock them until they get their acts together, or they are taken over by a group that does have their act together.

Which ever comes first.

boygabriel

Yes, that is clear.

Why a grassroots movement who is still getting its act together (like almost every other grassroots movement ever) is worthy of mockery, is really the question.

whynot_31

To me, it is clearly their naivete that warrants mocking.

Did they really believe they could change the world with a few twitter accounts and a webpage?

Did they really not understand the importance of a leader?

Did they really think people would come out to support "change", without any definition what would replace the current realities, and how we would go about getting there?

Did they really not know anything about the finance sector is much like every other industry, in terms of pursuit of self interest?

Are they completely unaware of how everyone who wants to be in front of a camera tries to take over such events?

Had they never been to a protest before?

Were they completely unaware of how large and intractable the externalities of capitalism, "greed" and "police brutality" are?

....why was I aware of these things at around age 14, yet they are not aware at age 22?

boygabriel

You're not that familiar with public protests, are you?

Many start leaderless.

Many take a while to crystallize their demands.

Not all. But many.

No, they didn't expect Wall Street to quake in fear and throw down their arms. These people were simply demonstrating their opinions in public.

See how those two things can both be true? Crazy huh?

A pretty simple and worthwhile gesture that's gaining traction.

These people were unorganized but passionate, and decided to simply publicly demonstrate and see what would happen.

Mocking them is nothing but masturbatory condescension on your part. It makes you feel wise and serious to write off political neophytes who simply wanted to make a public statement.

Which, by the way, they've been successful doing.

Not taking them seriously is one thing. That's entirely your call. But publicly mocking them over and over again is pathetic.

This is an extremely important issue.

Our political process is extremely broken.

These people are getting off their asses and out from behind their computers.

Mock the lazy American people, don't mock the ones who actually care about what's going on.

They are just getting started and yet you couldn't move fast enough to mock them on a public message board.

It's strange who you choose to start mockery threads of.

Strange and telling.

whynot_31

While "Occupy Wall Street" has the right to demonstrate as they choose, I am also free to critique (or mock) their methods should I choose.

I suspect the present group will be consumed by more established groups that have already been conducting organized demonstrations at Wall Street, and suspect that either being consumed (or adapting their tactics) is the best way for them to get any respect outside of the far left.

For example Sharpton, Weingarten, Liu, Williams, et al have all made it a habit of protesting on Wall St pretty regularly over the last decade, and had future events planned before this effort.

I like their events because they have focus. The recent event I picture wanted no funding cuts for schools.

boygabriel

Of course you're free to mock political neophytes for expressing their opinion in public before forming a coherent platform.

It's condescending, self-serving and pointless, but it's your choice.

I find endlessly amusing your faith that "moderates" or "the right" or any part of the traditional media are ever going to take a critique of our political and economic structures seriously.

I do wonder what wonderful world you're living in where this is possible.

Maybe it existed in the 70s?

whynot_31

I do not imagine utopia ever existed, or ever will exist.

I do not seek utopia.

I have accepted that I live in a capitalist society, with token aspects of democracy.

I seek out people whom I believe are engaging in thought out methods to make it less harsh.