Forum rules?

emily

Does this forum need rules? If so, what would they be?

Obviously we are not bothered by rumor-mongering or bad language. Would turning off guest posting solve our other problems?

This is not to say that I personally have the power or desire to turn off guest posting.

pensodyssey

I think the thread title should be, "Forum RULZ".

ana.log

personally, i don't see a great need for rules. it's not like things are out of control as they are. an over-arching theme that should preside over any forum like this is, of course, one urging mutual respect and openness to others views, but from what i can tell, that already exists for the most part. rules will inevitably get broken, so the users of the board will be largely unaffected while the admins will have a lot more work (i would think?).

i don't mind the 'guest' option - i think if people wish to remain anonymous, they should have the option to do so.

carnivore

Is it possible to block specific IPs from posting? It would be a shame to stop people with a casual interest from posting meaningful stuff. However, the latest idiot has demonstrated the need to stop people without anything constructive to say from interfering with our community. If we can't stop specific individuals, I think it's better to limit posts to registered users rather than let things degenerate any more.

emily

The problem is, if there are no rules at all, we have no official means of getting people to stop being jerks without appearing arbitrary. I imagine that if we had rules here, they would be about 1/10th as strict as the rules most other forums have. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think we consider unsubstantiated information to be exceedingly interesting. :P Plus, we all love this dirty smiley: :idea: Ha ha.

11238

Not for nothing, whats the big deal about people registering and logging in? Everyone should be accountable. Every board I am in requires registration.

This board's popularity is going to increase and that means more assholes. :twisted:

emily

True. More people = more trouble. Plus, it really takes no time at all to register for a phpbb board. I think people who make one post and go away, not continuing to keep up with the board, fall into two categories:

--Trolls. Who cares if they're inconvenienced?
--People looking for info like apartment shares. Well, we're doing them a favor by considering their problem, so it's probably not too much to ask to ask them to register.

Basically, the reason I think we could benefit from rules is that otherwise anything we do will seem arbitary and possible tinged by favoritism. For example, a guest named Alex called our most recent trollish Guest a douche bag but he's not causing problems otherwise. So if I delete the insulting posts that the trollish Guest made, am I being unfair if I let the douche bag comment stand? I don't think the rule can be that you can only make comments that the majority of regulars here agree with, and that's not the problem that I have with the trollish Guest's posts anyway. I think he could have said in a productive way "I think it is disrespectful of you to take photos of a crashed car in which someone was evidently badly injured" and rhodamine could have addressed that, you know?

t-fal

i would suggest a no threatening/ ad-hominem personal attacks sort of rule, especially given the "local" nature of the forum.

as to where to draw the line? uhm, i guess calling someone stupid or asinine would be ok, whereas calling someone the c*bomb, or saying that everyone thinks they have a busted face, or that you plan to bust their face would be a no-no?

ana.log

i guess that's fair. i hadn't yet seen the posts in question on the Motor crash thread - yuck, there are republicans reading our board!? I feel dirty now.

emily

Good idea, t-fal.Maybe there could also be a "straw-man" rule. I thought that was the problem with "richblackgirl"--she had made generalizations about the people in the neighborhood, then imposed them on the posters on this board and somehow expected us to respond. Once again, a case of how someone could have made the same points more productively.

Okay, now who volunteers to explain logical fallacies to guests? :twisted:

rhodamine

ana.log wrote: i don't mind the 'guest' option - i think if people wish to remain anonymous, they should have the option to do so.

people can remain "anonymous" by creating their own random username. its good to disable the guest account because it will add a bit to the continuity of the board by not having every troll, logout-plauged-person and actual newbie post as "guest".

the other good thing is that ip logging and banning (trolls) is alot easier on regular accounts on phpbb than it is with "guest".

as for rules, i dont care about rules. save for banning obvious trolls :twisted:


also: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

ana.log

rhodamine wrote: people can remain "anonymous" by creating their own random username.

I guess that was kind of my point. We're all anonymous to some degree, anyway, so what difference does it make if you're anonymous as Guest or anonymous as RBG? But I do understand the concept of adding a barrier to entry for trolls.

rhodamine

ana.log wrote: [quote=rhodamine]people can remain "anonymous" by creating their own random username.

I guess that was kind of my point. We're all anonymous to some degree, anyway, so what difference does it make if you're anonymous as Guest or anonymous as RBG? But I do understand the concept of adding a barrier to entry for trolls.

its a matter of... as i said above... ridding the forum of the ever-present "guest" mess. additionally, most people will think twice about posting a trollish, snarky comment if they have to sign up or log in.

the logic is simple.

emily

Plus, it's easier to monitor/ban people that way, if it gets to that point. If I look up the username "Guest," there is a list of maybe 200 IP addresses. Only a few of those people are annoying.

rhodamine

EmilyM wrote: Plus, it's easier to monitor/ban people that way, if it gets to that point. If I look up the username "Guest," there is a list of maybe 200 IP addresses. Only a few of those people are annoying.

thanks. thats exactly what i was trying to say earlier, but have been to scatterbraind with work today to pay as muc hattention to what i was saying as i should...

dailyheights

I voted "no" to turn off guest posting. Though it looks like I am in the minority.

The problem with turning off guest posting is that you raise the bar to entry. A lot of the guest posters have been neighborhood people with no experience with message boards. They have interesting things to say, and they might end up not sharing that info if they would have to go through a registration process to do so.

Besides, the trolls here have been hilarious--the "gol-durned librals" rants, and especially the attempts at race-baiting. I've been away for a week, so I don't know anything about this "richblackgirl" incident, but I'm sure it's a classic.

If specific anonymous trolls get out of hand, it is trivially easy to make sure they never. post. again. (said ominously with a hint of mafioso innuendo.)

t-fal

i read the forum in italian, in that language "guest" = "ospite" lending the trolls a certain air of euro trash fabulousness. in fact, i imagine that the "ospite" troll is actually donatella versace. it makes me laugh to think that those completely inflammatory posts are spewed forth from the collagen mouth of my favorite italian blonde leather handbag! at least that's how i cope

anonymous

Subject: Rules

I think you guys should do whatever you want, although I do not think that making people register will necessarily keep registrants from voicing opinions that you don't agree with---like I did. By the way, I registered, but forgot my password. For guys to be so progressive, you really get angry at people who express opinions of which you don't agree...Everyone who says something that you don't like isn't a "troll."

11238

There is a difference between an opinion and someone that is blatantly rude....

emily

dailyheights wrote: I voted "no" to turn off guest posting. Though it looks like I am in the minority.

The problem with turning off guest posting is that you raise the bar to entry. A lot of the guest posters have been neighborhood people with no experience with message boards. They have interesting things to say, and they might end up not sharing that info if they would have to go through a registration process to do so.

Besides, the trolls here have been hilarious--the "gol-durned librals" rants, and especially the attempts at race-baiting. I've been away for a week, so I don't know anything about this "richblackgirl" incident, but I'm sure it's a classic.

If specific anonymous trolls get out of hand, it is trivially easy to make sure they never. post. again. (said ominously with a hint of mafioso innuendo.)

If you prefer the "gang up on them and call them a douchebag" strategy, I can see why, but I think the problem will be a lot worse if we do a print edition and publicize this, rather than relying on word of mouth. Plus the trollery seems to distract people from other discussions, which is schade (too bad).

To echo Carnivore's question, can we block IPs? I spent a while today trying to figure out where our latest troll had been hanging out, and there are TONS of separate IPs for people who have been "Guest" with no name.

dailyheights

Subject: Re: Rules

RBG wrote: I think you guys should do whatever you want, although I do not think that making people register will necessarily keep registrants from voicing opinions that you don't agree with---like I did. By the way, I registered, but forgot my password.

RBG's forgotten password is exactly what I mean by barriers to entry ... RBG, if you click on "forgot my password" you should be able to retrieve your password. If it does not work, send me a private message and I will try to work it out.

RBG wrote: For guys to be so progressive, you really get angry at people who express opinions of which you don't agree...Everyone who says something that you don't like isn't a "troll."

You are exactly right. Unfortunately, the "respectful dissenters" are vastly outnumbered by kamikaze race-baiters who spew vitriol and burn out, never to be heard from again; the "ha ha ratner rules" types who just want to be puerile because they can do so anonymously; the jeering anti-liberals that suddenly appear from nowhere with both barrels a-blazin'; and so on.

We've had a few self-styled contrarians that come bearing politeness and flattery... but those behaviors quickly fall into the background as the arguments degenerate. It's hard to tell whether they started out with good intentions, or perhaps they are just in it for the thrill of provoking arguments--and then winning them at all costs.

On the other hand, the anti-Ratner crowd can be quite passionate and unrelenting. I don't have the example at hand, but I'm sure you could make the argument that some of them have stepped over the line into unfairly attacking "respectful dissenters," who in turn start arguing more loudly, and then they get called trolls, etc.

sje

Oh bullshit, RBG. There are definitely dissenting, respectful opinions here. Posting a different opinion with sound reasons to back it up is quite different from race-baiting and inflammatory and insulting generalizations and dumb falsehoods, and if you have half the education you proclaim, you'd already know that.

I'm all for registering, it's not rocket science! I don't believe it's helpful to bring everyone down to the level of the lowest common denominator.

anonymous

SBJ---Most people know that resorting to profanity is the quickest way to weaken an argument. Those of us who took a Debate 101 in college learned this...Then again, you might not know this seeing as your vitrol toward higher education leads me to believe you might be a drop-out. Don't get so worked up over the truth....RBG aka RichBlackGirl---and loving it!

jamesondean

I'll stop coming here if I know that trolls are waiting to inflame and shit all over any attempts to have a rational discussion about our neighborhood. Life's too short. Please require registration for all posters.

carnivore

RBG wrote: Then again, you might not know this seeing as your vitrol toward higher education leads me to believe you might be a drop-out.

RBG- did you mean vitriol? Or maybe you were as unclear about what it meant as you were about how to spell it...
SJE certainly didn't say anything that would imply that type of sentiment.

medusa

RBG wrote: SBJ---Most people know that resorting to profanity is the quickest way to weaken an argument. Those of us who took a Debate 101 in college learned this...Then again, you might not know this seeing as your vitrol toward higher education leads me to believe you might be a drop-out. Don't get so worked up over the truth....RBG aka RichBlackGirl---and loving it!

a) It's sje not SBJ

b) It's vitriol

c) you lost your cred as "strong Black queen of higher education" when you showed that you couldn't tell the difference between Ralph Ellison and James Baldwin. That's embarassing on many levels.

d) I read Invisible Man in high school, which is also where many people take debate class seriously. In college we moved on to tougher classes unless we had to make up some kind of requirement in a field we hated (lfor example, if Debate 101 could be counted as math).

e) When did sje actually display his vitriol toward higher education? I missed that.

f) Profanity does not, in itself, weaken an argument, but can be an indicator that the speaker feels their argument is weak. It can also be an indicator that the speaker feels very strongly about their subject. It can also be an indicator that the speaker has a potty mouth and simply forgets that they could express themselves without it.

g) There's nothing wrong with being a drop-out.

daveb

Steve Jobs=College dropout.

Just sayin'.

dailyheights

JamesonVandy wrote: I'll stop coming here if I know that trolls are waiting to inflame and shit all over any attempts to have a rational discussion about our neighborhood.

James, we are definitely considering required registration. In the meantime, PLEASE DO tell me, EmilyM, or daveb if you want us to look at a particular post (especially if verbally abusive or threatening).

dailyheights

RBG wrote: Don't get so worked up over the truth....RBG aka RichBlackGirl---and loving it!

I've just read through the recent comments of RichBlackGirl. Jack is right - they do bear a striking resemblance to the "Y'all Ain't Ready for the African-American Nouveau Riche" manifesto that was published in this forum several months ago.

Her comments also reminded me of this remarkable assertion, from Prospect Heights poet Patricia Spears Jones in The Brooklyn Rail: "My black neighbors always say 'Good morning.' My white neighbors still have to be reminded to speak."

RichBlackGirl seems very convinced of her worldview. You may find her comments aggressive, boastful, or even racist. You may find it amusing or irrational that this BMW-driving black woman, earning six figures, feels ignored and colonized by BMW-driving whites earning six figures. But maybe you should regard her comments as an insight into the true feelings some of your neighbors might be harboring behind a smile and a handshake.

Race relations are contentious in Prospect Heights (and beyond) because nobody wants to have a real conversation about race in public. Not the whites afraid of being labeled "racist." Not the tight-knit communities of Caribbeans, recent African immigrants, or American Blacks, who--much like the rich colonizing whites in RichBlackGirl's world--generally confine eye contact and idle chit-chat to themselves.

emily

dailyheights wrote: But maybe you should regard her comments as an insight into the true feelings some of your neighbors might be harboring behind a smile and a handshake.

True enough. The problem was when she went beyond expressing what she personally felt, and tried to ascribe her experiences with white people in general to the specific people here. Hence my comments about "straw-man" arguments, above. If you come in assuming that everyone in the forum dislikes you, they just might do so.

By the way, if anyone has registered and can't seem to recover their password: why not just create a new account? That's what I eventually gave up and did. Not to advocate cluttering up the system with tons of dead accounts, but if you haven't remembered the password over the course of a week, you're probably not going to.

daveb

I say we all get tattoos and group hug, god-dammit!