Starbucks on Franklin Ave?

homeowner

Absolutely. But part of the big box vs. Mom & Pop debate is about people's willingness to accept diversity in their neighborhoods. If you don't go into a 99 cent store, even though they dominate your neighborhood, and instead trek to Target, what hope is there that you'll see the value in one? If you don't use ethnic haircare products, of course, you'll decry the fact that there are three within 5 blocks of your house, while at the same time not understanding that its almost impossible to find those products in mainstream drug and big box stores. The fact that those stores don't serve you, doesn't mean they don't have the right to exist and to serve others in the community.

When economic development occurs around serving the "group-think middle" it doesn't just exclude Mom and Pop stores, it excludes anyone who doesn't service the group. So, even sucessful businesses like Cookies (children's clothing) won't have a place in Brooklyn because they sell inexpensive clothing for the masses and not $40 ironic tees for infants.

whynot_31

Correct.

When the masses prefer the homogenous, anything with individuality is at risk.

Clayfilms and I had a good discussion on this subject as it related to the threat CT Muffin poses to the Carib Bakeries on Nostrand. It is a pretty good read: http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/connecticut-muffin-coming-to-nostrand-ave

park place

This is a good discussion. As for what stores open, we have little control but as far as what stores survive, we have a great deal of control. It is the ultimate democracy and it is free of racism as I understand it. Simply stated, we vote with our dollars. Give the store your money and they stay. Do not give the store your money and eventually, they go.

As for me, i would never go to a Target if I could go to a mom and pop store for the same things. I would even pay a bit more if i had to but passing up a mom and pop to go to Target makes me cringe.

Vote with your dollars and see the results.

park place

homeowner said:

But, its not just that. Its some of the issues that come to mind from the "What should go on Washington Avenue thread". Why does EVERY neighborhood need a bagel shop, a craft beer place, a bookstore, a children's clothing store and no one need a roti shop, a beauty supply store, or a McDonalds.

At its core, its because the people who prefer the former don't use the latter. And certainly some of it is racial, but its more than that. Its the people who wish that Franklin looked like Smith Street or Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg, or 5th Avenue in Park Slope, and not from the perspective of every storefront filled, but rather that every place should look like every other place.

Its the sense that not being able to afford to live in Park Slope means that you need to remake where you live into a clone of Park Slope (pretty much guaranteeing that you won't be able to afford to live there eventually).

And yes, changes in immigration are affecting ethnic enclaves, and changes in economics and globalization are affecting local communities, but underlying all of that is a feeling that I have that the unique nature of neigborhoods and the melding of culture that made NYC such a special place to live and grow up is being replaced by a sense that there is a particular class/cultural outlook that is acceptable and everything else is unimportant or not valid.

I would want a neighborhood to have all of the things you mentioned and more as those stores seem to fill the needs of so many of the "average" people in terms of the demands they have for goods and service.

My favorite stretch of Franklin Avenue, from President Street to Park Place, if I could design it just for me, would have coffee shops (3), places for pizza (2 at a minimum) a food shop with meat and fish, a great pub/restaurant, a place to get great pastrami, 2 bodegas, a clothing store for some basics, a candy store, a bagel shop, a pharmacy, 5 or 6 very diverse restaurants a bookstore that was used books only and a place for ice cream.

It is late and I am tired so I wonder what I am missing. As an aside, I would be thrilled if each of these stores was a mom and pop store. I am also thinking that to turn Franklin Avenue into a main drag type of a street lie those in Park Slope would be sad.

A 99 cent store would be good because it is so very valuable in so many ways. What did I miss? Ohhhh, 2 or 3 places for breakfast. Nothing fancy or cute; just great eggs and bacon and strong coffee to start off a Saturday.

One last thought. I like the occasional Starbucks but I like it in someone else's neighborhood as I pass though, not in my neighborhood.

How did I do? Can I come back now? Apartments on Park Place available?

whynot_31

I think posters are getting at two things:

1. Whether you are a business or a resident, you end up being affected by (and/or furthering) changes in the neighborhood largely against your will, and without your consent.

2. People often act in ways to create and further "sameness", whether they realize it or not, and whether they like it or not.

1 and 2 seem to bother some people more than others. Some people aren't bothered at all; They just accept them as facts of life.

whynot_31

Bump.

Readers may not be aware, but Franklin Avenue and the surrounding area have already reached the level that they are no longer within the the reach of new, start-up businesses.

Most of the businesses that have opened up over the last 2 years have other locations, and substansial capital to invest in renovating the spaces.

As this process continues, franchises are the next step. As with prior phases of the process, it will not be within the control of individuals.

The change will be governed primarily by market forces, and restricted "only" by things like the zoning code ...not things like whether individuals or groups want them.

newguy88

The laws of hipster cool dictate that once a place gets a Starbucks it has officially sold out. Of course no hipster will recognize the laws of hipster cool since there are no hipsters.

In all seriousness Franklin getting a Starbucks would royally suck. But whynot is yet again correct it's up to market forces not us.

P.S. I am not a hipster.

epiclylaterd

Hey Newguy, im not a starbucks supporter at all but why would it royally suck?

I feel like the Starbucks franchise to some is the equivalent to the new, hip bars and restaurants along Franklin to people who've been here a long time. Change is constant.

whynot_31

I'd like to dismiss the concept of "selling out", because it seems to imply that there was a common ethos that the neighborhood used to have, but now doesn't.

For example, we didn't all not want "upscale" franchises like Starbucks in the past. We don't all want them now, and we won't all want them in the future.

This is simply a question of whether enough people with the means and desire to purchase their products are perceived to now live (and pass through) this area, and/or whether enough such people will live in this area in the near future.

Upscale franchises are concluding the answer is "Yes". As a result, the franchises will soon arrive.

As a result of reaching a different conclusion in the past, such businesses were not here.

vaportrail

Whynot, what are the businesses that have openend recently that have had owners of other similar locations?

epiclylaterd

Excelsior, the bike shop owns a bike shop on smith street, Crown Heights Animal

Hospital is partnered with the Prospect Heights Animal

Hospital, the owners of Franklin Park own Crown Heights Inn but also Soda Bar and before that Southpaw, is Mayfield owned by one of the Stone Pony owners? Etc etc

tsarina

Yes starbucks would be the Kiss of death.

eastbloc

I did some research. It's hard to get a Starbucks franchise. It takes more than money, and I doubt they'd bother trying to do it here. Starbucks wants to be where there is a lot of foot traffic and turnover (i.e. transit hubs, heavy retail and business districts) not where there is an area already saturated with coffee shops and where people are more likely to want to linger with their laptop rather than stand in line for coffee to go.

whynot_31

I am not aware of a relationship between Cool Pony and Mayfield.

But, just about EVERY bar and restaurant that has opened (or is presently in the process of opening) is owned by an owner/LLC that has other locations, and several investors.

Lots of money, skill and tolerance for risk is required to create the places we now eat and drink.

Franchises are the next step. Many of the small mom and pops won't be able to compete but, they won't be the kiss of death unless you describe places that have them as being dead.

Needless to say, a lot of people new to an area (or here for the day) prefer franchises because they offer a homogenous, known product.

vaportrail

Cent'Anni, Mayfield, Docklands, new coffee shops on St Johns and Park Place, Catfish, Cafe Rue Dix, Pretzle place, Island CZ, Cool Pony all seem to be the only store owned by the proprietors. What am I missing here?

whynot_31

We seem to be having confusion regarding how I am using the terms "substantial investment", "start-up", and "experienced", likely because I am being far from clear.

The terms are very relative, and I have not bothered to try and quantify them.

That said...

Several of the venues you list are far from my definition of "mom and pop", and have active investors behind-the-scenes who have stakes in other establishments.

Likewise, the visible owners/principals are quite seasoned.

Basically, I am arguing that Franklin between EP and Atlantic is no longer a venue where small, inexperienced, cash poor proprietors can open up shop. When they do, they don't stand much of a chance in the face of the pros.

My advise to non-pros is to learn their trade elsewhere first, or get really good, highly involved investors.

....because if they think it is tough at the moment, it is about to get a lot tougher as the next wave of even more experienced proprietors and the franchises arrive.

epiclylaterd

Whynot, I meant Stone Park Cafe, not Stone Pony which I made up. I looked it up and one of the Mayfield owners was a chef there, not an owner I believe. Anyway.

whynot_31

Needless to say, many of the building owners encourage this trend by requiring substantial deposits, and lengthy leases.

The processes one needs to endure to get an alcohol permit and DOH approval also present substantial barriers to entry, but those are not new in the same way that the market conditions are.

Note: I am only talking about the upscale franchises arriving, not dominating.

homeowner

vaportrail said:

Cent'Anni, Mayfield, Docklands, new coffee shops on St Johns and Park Place, Catfish, Cafe Rue Dix, Pretzle place, Island CZ, Cool Pony all seem to be the only store owned by the proprietors. What am I missing here?

Luna Bagels (St John's & Nostrand) have another shop in Williamsburg. Island CZ owner has another restaurant in Flatbush. I think both Mayfield's and Catfish are owned by people that were long-time restaurant employees. There is definitely a relationship between experienced ownership and those opening up in the neighborhood.

vaportrail

Details homeowner details. Lula (not Luna) Bagel (no s) is on Lincoln Place. Also you should notice it was not on my list.

Catfish was started by first timer owners. http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2013/01/catfish-bar-and-restaurant-opens-on.html?m=1

The same for Mayfield. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/dining/reviews/hungry-city-mayfield-in-crown-heights-brooklyn.html

They may have had in editors which enabled them to design the space and spend money as well as had the necessary working capital to survive the beginning.

But I think the main point of whynot's bump is spurious. These two restaurants and Gladys (food trucks don't count IMO) show that mom and pops still have plenty of opportunity here. Granted to whynots point they must be well financed and experienced in the industry, but not necessarily owners.

I think this distinction is important because seeing this means it is not eminent that franchises will crowd out opportunities for ambitious people with no ownership experience.

whynot_31

October 12, 2013

I think it would be disingenuous of me to not disclose that I am aware a major franchise is coming, but have been sworn to secrecy re: the name of said franchise.

Carry on.

epiclylaterd

The question is, when can you break the news?

terekete

or... trade area of said franchise? There's a big difference between TD Bank, Applebees, and Starbucks....

eastbloc

We would kill for a DR or a Walgreen's at EP and Franklin.

whynot_31

I do not fulfill wishes. I only know of things before others.

urbanexplorer

" I do not fulfill wishes. I only know of things before others."

Spooky, do you also see dead people?

whynot_31

I saw some here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodies:_The_Exhibition

But we may be getting off topic.

vaportrail

Hmm. Understood whynot. But I would like to point out that the presence of franchises does not preclude small operators opening up innovative retail or restaurants. We had Wamu/Chase and Dunkin Dounuts (EP & Nostrand) before individuals began innovating with restaurants and retail in Northern Crown Heights.

Whynot, can you offer any clues? Is it food? Which Avenue is it on/near?

xlizellx

whynot_31 said:

I think it would be disingenuous of me to not disclose that I am aware a major franchise is coming, but have been sworn to secrecy re: the name of said franchise.

Carry on.

Secrets don't make friends.

homeowner

vaportrail said:

Details homeowner details. Lula (not Luna) Bagel (no s) is on Lincoln Place. Also you should notice it was not on my list.

Catfish was started by first timer owners. http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2013/01/catfish-bar-and-restaurant-opens-on.html?m=1

The same for Mayfield. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/dining/reviews/hungry-city-mayfield-in-crown-heights-brooklyn.html

They may have had in editors which enabled them to design the space and spend money as well as had the necessary working capital to survive the beginning.

But I think the main point of whynot's bump is spurious. These two restaurants and Gladys (food trucks don't count IMO) show that mom and pops still have plenty of opportunity here. Granted to whynots point they must be well financed and experienced in the industry, but not necessarily owners.

I think this distinction is important because seeing this means it is not eminent that franchises will crowd out opportunities for ambitious people with no ownership experience.

I got details. I didn't say they previously owned restaurants rather that both Catfish and Mayfields were started by long time restaurant EMPLOYEES (ie. people with a strong background in the industry). When I referenced experienced ownership it was experience in the industry, which all of these owners have, vs. people coming to the restaurant industry without having a lot of experience in hospitality/food service.