prospect park is not the tour de France

carnivore

Idlewild wrote: For automobiles it's 30 mph. I believe for bikes in Prospect Park it's 15mph.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

anonymous

This is so SIMPLE. It is a ROAD. If pedestrians cross carefully, there is no issue.

Pedestrians have a WHOLE city to wander. Cyclists only have ONE place in Brooklyn to train.

Many seem to not understand cycling. To train you have to move fast. Expecting a cyclist to slow down several times each time around the park is like expecting a jogger to stop and stand still every 100 yards - it defeats the whole purpose. Furthermore, accidents can be very messy. Being clipped onto the pedals makes it more difficult to make abrupt stops. So one can not blame cyclists for being vocal with pedestrians who are not careful.

alafairnadia

kosherdave wrote: I still don't think the blindfolded person would be able to find the cross walk though!

so the blind people in nyc don't use crosswalks?
you may want to rethink your statement.
I see blind people using crosswalks in brooklyn and manhattan - some with the assistance of seeing eye dogs, some using just a walking stick and knowledge of the area.
in some areas - I've seen/heard this a lot in manhattan, actually - the crosswalk has a built in beepy noise, not only to tell a blind person where the crosswalk is physically located, but also to indicate how much time they have left to cross.

also, while your lawyer friends/family are somewhat correct, they aren't absolutely correct. if a driver can see clearly that say ... a crosswalk is too full/overflowing because either another vehicle is blocking the box or there are too many people/strollers/dogs/bikes taking up the space (say a typical weekend crossing from the library to the park), that driver has a duty to exercise caution. city streets are not a free-for-all, and people who take on additional responsibility by acquiring a vehicle and a license to operate that vehicle also need to exercise good sense. if a driver were to hit someone in a situation like that, they might not be criminally negligent (though an argument could be made that they are), but there's certainly a civil case to be made.

a biker in prospect park on a sunday afternoon cannot reasonably expect an unencumbered path through the park. it is COMPLETELY unreasonable. and it is an absurd expectation of bikers, above all other traffic, to believe they have the right of way in public parks.

anonymous

But bicycling is only ONE activity on that road. Do you really think it is fair that ONE activity gets to dominate. because if you are crashing into pedestrians, swearing at them, expecting them NOT to use the road so YOU can train, that seems a bit selfish to me living in a big city. I thought closing the road to traffic meant the road was available to use and instead not to be dominated by another kind of traffic. Maybe they just need to redraw the lines and give the cyclists less of the road since they are the minority of users.
I did speak to Prospect Park Alliance and cyclists MUST stop at all the crosswalks (HA) and pedestrians have the right of way at all times. They have had a lot of complaints and are trying to work with various cycling clubs to get some of these jokers in line but if not......things can be looked at again.

Anonymous wrote: This is so SIMPLE. It is a ROAD. If pedestrians cross carefully, there is no issue.

Pedestrians have a WHOLE city to wander. Cyclists only have ONE place in Brooklyn to train.

Many seem to not understand cycling. To train you have to move fast. Expecting a cyclist to slow down several times each time around the park is like expecting a jogger to stop and stand still every 100 yards - it defeats the whole purpose. Furthermore, accidents can be very messy. Being clipped onto the pedals makes it more difficult to make abrupt stops. So one can not blame cyclists for being vocal with pedestrians who are not careful.

linusvanpelt

Anonymous wrote: Many seem to not understand cycling. To train you have to move fast. Expecting a cyclist to slow down several times each time around the park is like expecting a jogger to stop and stand still every 100 yards - it defeats the whole purpose.

Too freaking bad.

The fact that nowhere else in Brooklyn suits you doesn't change the facts that the park, including the road, is a multiuse site and that pedestrians do have the right of way. You can't just arrogate the road to yourself--I am an athlete! Respect my authoritah!--because you want to.

Fact is, you want to pursue an activity --training at high speed without stopping or slowing -- that you can't do safely in the park without breaking the park rules and/or endangering other people. So it's on you to compromise. If you can't compromise, I have exactly no sympathy.

anonymous

You people are so dense. The road can be shared safely by pedestrians, runners, rollerbladers, high-speed cyclists, and anyone else, if everyone is paying attention and careful. Being careful does not mean a cyclist has to stop for a pedestrian wandering into the road without looking. Good cyclists ride in straight lines at a steady pace - totally predictable - it need not be an imposition on anyone to watch out for them. I ride in the park at peak weekend times, and the ONLY problem comes from people who are not paying attention (cyclists included) - people zig zagging around the road or moving onto it without looking.

anonymous

Anonymous wrote: You people are so dense. The road can be shared safely by pedestrians, runners, rollerbladers, high-speed cyclists, and anyone else, if everyone is paying attention and careful. Being careful does not mean a cyclist has to stop for a pedestrian wandering into the road without looking. Good cyclists ride in straight lines at a steady pace - totally predictable - it need not be an imposition on anyone to watch out for them. I ride in the park at peak weekend times, and the ONLY problem comes from people who are not paying attention (cyclists included) - people zig zagging around the road or moving onto it without looking.

Well put. Seems people are missing the point. All people in the park should be careful and mindful of one another. We're ALL out there. Can't we all just get a long?

And alafairnadia, I said blindFOLDED people, not the blind. Blindfolded implies they are wandering around haphazardly. being Blind is a different story, and they use a cane/guidedog/someone's arm. I'm fairly certain no cycist, rollerblader, jogger, or stroller pushing mommie/daddie would yell at someone crossing in a crosswalk, with a long white cane or a guide dog. If they did, they'd just be Assholes.

kosherdave

Anonymous wrote:
Well put. Seems people are missing the point. All people in the park should be careful and mindful of one another. We're ALL out there. Can't we all just get a long?

And alafairnadia, I said blindFOLDED people, not the blind. Blindfolded implies they are wandering around haphazardly. being Blind is a different story, and they use a cane/guidedog/someone's arm. I'm fairly certain no cycist, rollerblader, jogger, or stroller pushing mommie/daddie would yell at someone crossing in a crosswalk, with a long white cane or a guide dog. If they did, they'd just be Assholes.

This site repeatedly refuses to auto-log me in! argg! The above was me.

alafairnadia

Anonymous wrote: And alafairnadia, I said blindFOLDED people, not the blind. Blindfolded implies they are wandering around haphazardly. being Blind is a different story, and they use a cane/guidedog/someone's arm. I'm fairly certain no cycist, rollerblader, jogger, or stroller pushing mommie/daddie would yell at someone crossing in a crosswalk, with a long white cane or a guide dog. If they did, they'd just be Assholes.

I sincerely doubt that anyone could tell that person was blind, given the crowd congestion in and around the park these last several weekends. another reason to take it easy.

linusvanpelt

Anonymous wrote: You people are so dense. The road can be shared safely by pedestrians, runners, rollerbladers, high-speed cyclists, and anyone else, if everyone is paying attention and careful. Being careful does not mean a cyclist has to stop for a pedestrian wandering into the road without looking.

No, it means a cyclist has to stop, or slow, for a pedestrian who looks, has the right of way, and crosses. Being careful does not mean that I do not cross the street if it would mean, God forbid, that a biker may have to slow down.

This whole argument is going, appropriately enough, in circles. Yes, everybody should watch where they're going. Common sense. I don't just step out in front of a biker or runner or blader who's too close to stop. Right of way is not a force field.

Bottom line, tho: one party has the right of way. In Prospect Park, that party is the pedestrian crossing the street. Period. But too many cyclists feel it shouldn't be that way, so they just refuse to recognize it.

The thing is, I personally do wait for cyclists when I'm crossing. I run and sometimes bike (for cross-training) in the park, and I don't want to screw up anyone else's workout. But they're not entitled to that treatment. I also sympathize with somebody pushing a stroller on a Sunday, waiting for bike after bike after bike whizzing by. Sometimes I have to slow down for walkers when I'm running, and that's just life.

kosherdave

alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Anonymous]And alafairnadia, I said blindFOLDED people, not the blind. Blindfolded implies they are wandering around haphazardly. being Blind is a different story, and they use a cane/guidedog/someone's arm. I'm fairly certain no cycist, rollerblader, jogger, or stroller pushing mommie/daddie would yell at someone crossing in a crosswalk, with a long white cane or a guide dog. If they did, they'd just be Assholes.

I sincerely doubt that anyone could tell that person was blind, given the crowd congestion in and around the park these last several weekends. another reason to take it easy.

What person? the one with the cane, or the one with the guidedog. Or do blind people wander around the city? If so, you're right they're hard to tell cause I've NEVER seen on. But I have seen people with canes on a fairly regular basis.

kosherdave

I cycle most evenings around 6:30 'cause that's when I get home and changed from work. There are usually not many cyclists out. At least I've never seen lines and lines and lines of them. I WISH there were more cause I get lonely riding out of a pack for miles and mile. I think Tuesdays and Thursdays are bigger cycling group days (but mostly it IS early mornings already). So just be a little extra careful during those times and everyone will be juuuuust fine.

PEDs should use some common sense, look BOTH ways, use a cross walk... then I agree they should have the right-of-way.
Cyclists should be mindful of the slower people, expecially in crosswalks, but also to watch for the morons that bolt out of nowhere/out of bushes and cross like THEY own the place, with or without strollers.

Bottom line, it's a road, be careful. If you have the right of way or not, you still should not be a moron, or some other moron is going to run you down be it on a bike, blades or $100 sneakers (or even an SUVstroller). Then regardless of fault, two people are going to be really hurt. and you can cry faut or not, but I'm sure we'd all like to avoid the pain in the first place.

As for the people threatening the throw shit or put stuff (caltraps!?! crazy PS ninjas) in the roads to harm cyclists... that's brilliant. Try that. You seem to be the biggest problems of them all, though I doubt anyone on this board is really psychotic enough to go aftersomeone and brutally harm them, just 'cause they have their panties in a bundle that some cyclists ride too quickly.

As for the cyclists shouting rude comments to move, stop it, you give us all a bad name, just watch the road and know there are people strolling aimlessly.

And everyone, watch out for those blindfolded people!

anonymous

linusvanpelt wrote: Being careful does not mean that I do not cross the street if it would mean, God forbid, that a biker may have to slow down.

Yes it does!! Why is it too much to ask for you to wait a few seconds? Waiting for a cyclist to go by DOES NOT impose on your your enjoyment of the park for a stroll! But for cyclists to have to slow down for every pedestrian would SERIOUSLY impose on their enjoyment of the park for a ride.

alafairnadia

kosherdave wrote: [quote=alafairnadia][quote=Anonymous]And alafairnadia, I said blindFOLDED people, not the blind. Blindfolded implies they are wandering around haphazardly. being Blind is a different story, and they use a cane/guidedog/someone's arm. I'm fairly certain no cycist, rollerblader, jogger, or stroller pushing mommie/daddie would yell at someone crossing in a crosswalk, with a long white cane or a guide dog. If they did, they'd just be Assholes.

I sincerely doubt that anyone could tell that person was blind, given the crowd congestion in and around the park these last several weekends. another reason to take it easy.

What person? the one with the cane, or the one with the guidedog. Or do blind people wander around the city? If so, you're right they're hard to tell cause I've NEVER seen on. But I have seen people with canes on a fairly regular basis.

actually, amusingly enough, crossing 5th ave in manhattan today with a huge pack of tourists and lunching worker bees, I realized that the guy right behind me was blind cause he kept nicking my flip flops with his cane. the pack of people crossing was so so so huge I doubt anyone from the outside could have possibly seen him.
that's what I mean, though - when groups of people are so big it's hard to see 3 or 4 deep into the pack to notice the blind person (or slow person, or parent with a couple of kids, or whatever might be there).

in any case, given your post above, I figure you're not one of the menacing cyclists. I do wish, though, cyclists in this city would STAY OFF THE SIDEWALK. gah.

ahab

Screw it. I'm selling all my bikes and getting THIS THING.

whyfi

Ahab wrote: Screw it. I'm selling all my bikes and getting THIS THING.

:shock: That thing cut the grass, too?!

stacey

I think the point most people are making is you must be alert because YOU (bicyclist, pedestrian, etc.) are not the only one in the park, But I would just like to add that while adults can be aware of their surroundings and be cautious alot of children use the park and they can get away from even the most attentive parents in a NY second and those bikes can really hurt a child.

So with that I post this law:

"May bicyclists drive side-by-side on a roadway?

* Yes. They may drive two abreast on roadways, but they must drive single file when being overtaken by other vehicles. Bicyclists may only travel more than two abreast on a shoulder, bike lane or bike path intended for bike use if there is sufficient space. However, they must be in single file when passing vehicles, pedestrians or other bicyclists (Sec. 1234(b))."

Where on the road may a bicyclist drive?

* If there is usable bike lane, the bicyclist must use it. If there is no bike lane, or it is unusable due to parked cars or other hazards, the bicyclist may drive either on the right shoulder, or near the right edge or curb of the roadway. A bicyclist may move further left to avoid hazards such as parked cars or debris, but the bicycle driver must avoid undue interference with other traffic (Sec. 1234(a)).
* You should generally bicycle as far to the right as is practicable. If there is a safe shoulder, use it instead of the traffic lane. Smart cyclists plot a line straight down the roadway 3-4 feet from the curb or parked cars. This allows them space to avoid road hazards and to be more visible to motorists and pedestrians.

And to be fair:

Which traffic laws apply to pedestrians?

* Pedestrians must obey traffic control signals when they are crossing a street (Sec. 1150).

What if there is no crosswalk?

* If there is no crosswalk, a pedestrian must yield the right-of-way to all vehicles on the roadway (Sec. 1152).

carnivore

Ahab wrote: Screw it. I'm selling all my bikes and getting THIS THING.

That is the most absurd invention since "Mr. Tea" on SNL!

carnivore

Anonymous wrote: [quote=linusvanpelt]Being careful does not mean that I do not cross the street if it would mean, God forbid, that a biker may have to slow down.

Yes it does!! Why is it too much to ask for you to wait a few seconds? Waiting for a cyclist to go by DOES NOT impose on your your enjoyment of the park for a stroll! But for cyclists to have to slow down for every pedestrian would SERIOUSLY impose on their enjoyment of the park for a ride.
Yes it does? The rules say otherwise. The fact that the rules inconvenience you doesn't entitle you to disregard them. If you think they should be changed, then work to change the rules. Until that happens, you are in the wrong if you don't give the pedestrian in a crosswalk the right of way.

The cyclists' sense of entitlement is really astonishing here. The park is not your private training ground. Just as pedestrians have to look both ways before crossing, you also have to accomodate them. You can't expect to not have to adjust your course or change speeds when you're sharing the park with other people.

mdgately

What if there is no crosswalk?

* If there is no crosswalk, a pedestrian must yield the right-of-way to all vehicles on the roadway (Sec. 1152).

In other words, just stepping blithely into the street, away from a crosswalk, does not give the pedestrian the right of way, whether over cars or over bicycles. Of course, it makes sense to jaywalk only when there's a clear view of potentially oncoming traffic, and bicyclists really ought to obey basic traffic laws - stopping for stop signs and red lights, etc. - if they wish to be treated as vehicles. Does anyone know whether it's the law in NYC that all vehicles must stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, even away from traffic lights, as it is in New Jersey and elsewhere?

anonymous

Carnivore wrote: [quote=Anonymous][quote=linusvanpelt]Being careful does not mean that I do not cross the street if it would mean, God forbid, that a biker may have to slow down.

Yes it does!! Why is it too much to ask for you to wait a few seconds? Waiting for a cyclist to go by DOES NOT impose on your your enjoyment of the park for a stroll! But for cyclists to have to slow down for every pedestrian would SERIOUSLY impose on their enjoyment of the park for a ride.
Yes it does? The rules say otherwise. The fact that the rules inconvenience you doesn't entitle you to disregard them. If you think they should be changed, then work to change the rules. Until that happens, you are in the wrong if you don't give the pedestrian in a crosswalk the right of way.

The cyclists' sense of entitlement is really astonishing here. The park is not your private training ground. Just as pedestrians have to look both ways before crossing, you also have to accomodate them. You can't expect to not have to adjust your course or change speeds when you're sharing the park with other people.

Again, this is so SIMPLE. If, as you say they should, pedestrians look before crossing, there is no issue and this whole thread is in vain.

steve

It seems pretty obvious to me that the bicyclists here have no interest in actually obeying the law, either by stopping at a light or yielding to a pedestrian in the crosswalk. This conversation reminds me of the way some bicyclists act whenever they feel inconvenienced during critical mass or on the bridges, like a bunch of spoiled children.

anonymous

steve wrote: It seems pretty obvious to me that the bicyclists here have no interest in actually obeying the law, either by stopping at a light or yielding to a pedestrian in the crosswalk. This conversation reminds me of the way some bicyclists act whenever they feel inconvenienced during critical mass or on the bridges, like a bunch of spoiled children.

OMG, the head-up-the-a** stupidity here is driving me nuts. fricking fascists citing the law. lets talk common sense and courtesy.

asking cyclists to stay under 15mph and stop at all crosswalks and yield for all pedestrians is the same as telling them they can't ride at all. it is as absurd as telling everyone else that you aren't allowed on the grass - it would defeat the whole purpose of our enjoyment of the park.

OF COURSE, if cyclists riding they way they do were an imposition on everyone else, then they shouldn't. but it is NO IMPOSITION!!! someone tell me why waiting a few seconds for a bike to go by is a problem! would you step out into the road in front of a jogger and expect them to stop for you? of course not! there is no difference between waiting for a cyclist and waiting for stroller to pass. look, cross the road when it is clear, and enjoy your day - what is the problem?????????

carnivore

Anonymous wrote: [quote=steve]It seems pretty obvious to me that the bicyclists here have no interest in actually obeying the law, either by stopping at a light or yielding to a pedestrian in the crosswalk. This conversation reminds me of the way some bicyclists act whenever they feel inconvenienced during critical mass or on the bridges, like a bunch of spoiled children.

OMG, the head-up-the-a** stupidity here is driving me nuts. fricking fascists citing the law. lets talk common sense and courtesy.

asking cyclists to stay under 15mph and stop at all crosswalks and yield for all pedestrians is the same as telling them they can't ride at all. it is as absurd as telling everyone else that you aren't allowed on the grass - it would defeat the whole purpose of our enjoyment of the park.

OF COURSE, if cyclists riding they way they do were an imposition on everyone else, then they shouldn't. but it is NO IMPOSITION!!! someone tell me why waiting a few seconds for a bike to go by is a problem! would you step out into the road in front of a jogger and expect them to stop for you? of course not! there is no difference between waiting for a cyclist and waiting for stroller to pass. look, cross the road when it is clear, and enjoy your day - what is the problem?????????

kensingtonmom wrote: I looked left and right before proceeding--all was clear. When I got to the center a pack of bicyclists came up over the hill (not in the bike lane) and then started cursing me for being in their way. "Watch where the f your going." "GET OUTTA MY WAY asshole."

anonymous

Carnivore wrote: [quote=Anonymous][quote=steve]It seems pretty obvious to me that the bicyclists here have no interest in actually obeying the law, either by stopping at a light or yielding to a pedestrian in the crosswalk. This conversation reminds me of the way some bicyclists act whenever they feel inconvenienced during critical mass or on the bridges, like a bunch of spoiled children.

OMG, the head-up-the-a** stupidity here is driving me nuts. fricking fascists citing the law. lets talk common sense and courtesy.

asking cyclists to stay under 15mph and stop at all crosswalks and yield for all pedestrians is the same as telling them they can't ride at all. it is as absurd as telling everyone else that you aren't allowed on the grass - it would defeat the whole purpose of our enjoyment of the park.

OF COURSE, if cyclists riding they way they do were an imposition on everyone else, then they shouldn't. but it is NO IMPOSITION!!! someone tell me why waiting a few seconds for a bike to go by is a problem! would you step out into the road in front of a jogger and expect them to stop for you? of course not! there is no difference between waiting for a cyclist and waiting for stroller to pass. look, cross the road when it is clear, and enjoy your day - what is the problem?????????

kensingtonmom wrote: I looked left and right before proceeding--all was clear. When I got to the center a pack of bicyclists came up over the hill (not in the bike lane) and then started cursing me for being in their way. "Watch where the f your going." "GET OUTTA MY WAY asshole."

i dont think there are many, if any, real blind turns where this is an issue. but keep looking as you cross and if you see them coming, take a quick step or two. not a problem.

rose

steve wrote: It seems pretty obvious to me that the bicyclists here have no interest in actually obeying the law, either by stopping at a light or yielding to a pedestrian in the crosswalk. This conversation reminds me of the way some bicyclists act whenever they feel inconvenienced during critical mass or on the bridges, like a bunch of spoiled children.

The cyclists really haven't done themselves any favors with their posts on this thread.

anonymous

Rose wrote: The cyclists really haven't done themselves any favors with their posts on this thread.

When the first several posts cry for vigilante justice on all bike riders, it is difficult to respond in a positive manner.

Yet, several of us did.

But, go ahead and focus on the trolls. It's what they want anyway.

ahab

Me again. @%^#%# logon. :oops:

carnivore

Rose wrote: [quote=steve]It seems pretty obvious to me that the bicyclists here have no interest in actually obeying the law, either by stopping at a light or yielding to a pedestrian in the crosswalk. This conversation reminds me of the way some bicyclists act whenever they feel inconvenienced during critical mass or on the bridges, like a bunch of spoiled children.

The cyclists really haven't done themselves any favors with their posts on this thread.
I know. I didn't have a problem with the cyclists before (sometimes I'm one of them), but now I want to go take a walk to the park and assert my right to the crosswalk. I might even carry my things over my shoulder with a long pole.

whyfi

So... are you the one carrying the pole or the one sitting in the basket? :?