Strange Homeless Looking Guy ...

anonymous

I am relatively new to the area and was initally pleased with the diversity and the relative character of the neighborhood. However, recently I have noticed a few unsavory types lurking around. For one thing there is a man that looks homeless/crazy that gets off at the Classon Ave station and sometimes walks up and down the street sort of aimlessly. Also, I noticed that there tends to sometimes be an unsavory element around the bodegas in near the Classon Avenue subway and once when I was in the Chinese restaurant, there were some youngish looking girls, talking saying things like "they wanna give me 4 years ...I aint doin 4 years for nobody". These were young women talking about what I can only assume was prison!!! When I looked at my apartment, which is in a new building, I was initially worried about the housing project nearby, but was reassured that because there is a precint nearby the project is not really typical of what you would find in other areas. I bought that but now I'm starting to wonder especially with the presence of people that look and act somewhat criminal and/or like vagrants. I think this is a quality of life issue that should be brought up at the next precint meeting.

anonymous

Wow. Well I guess this is not of interest to anyone on this board. I am not sure what I have gotten myself into moving into this area, I really hope that I did not make a big mistake and I hope that the apathy of this board is not an indicator of the level of concern in the community.

escap

Anonymous wrote: Wow. Well I guess this is not of interest to anyone on this board. I am not sure what I have gotten myself into moving into this area, I really hope that I did not make a big mistake and I hope that the apathy of this board is not an indicator of the level of concern in the community.

?? If I'm reading this right there were 34 minutes between your posts. Give us a break!! The readership on this forum is not exactly that heavy. People have "jobs" or other "things to do" besides posting on this forum, despite what impression you might have from following Armchair Warrior's posts.

That being said, my impression of that area is that it's pretty shady. I personally would be hesitant to live there. But I live quite a few blocks away, so perhaps someone from the immediate area should weigh in. (just please give them more than 34 minutes)

thalia

what do you want exactly?

reassurance that your eyes and ears are deceiving you? :?

bifteck

This is still New York and there are still "unsavory types" everywhere, no matter how nice your real estate agent said the area was becoming. The key word there is "becoming" -- although the landscape is changing, there are still plenty of people from the "old guard," which is, frankly, what a lot of people like about the area.

Give it a little time. How long have you been living there? If you try being friendly (without being too in-your-face about it) rather than fearful, you might gain from it.

anonymous

ok so blame the victim. I live by Classon Lafayette and am about to buy a 700k condo located almost around the corner. Does this make my claim any more valid. If a 2 bedroom condo is in excess of 700k I think the area should not be scary sorry. What I expect is that people would want to know what the scary homeless looking person looked like so they could be aware. What I expect is that people would give advice as to what neighborly etiquette dictates in this case. Should I have called the police? I didn't because I thought perhaps he was the friendly neighborhood bum, but his obvious mental instability disturbed me enough to post on the board to see if others know him and to get their take. I guess I should just accept this and spend my 700k elsewhere. Perhaps when the property values begin to decline in the area, then it won't be so easy to dismiss my post as an over reaction. I am just one person who will now reconsider investing in this area. If this is the general attitude of most in this neighborhood, I will also make sure that others considering a move here are aware that the people in this nabe just don't care unless its within a 3 block radius of thier "area".

escap

Hmm, I'm pretty glad we've chased you off. You sound like a nasty, bitter, reproachful human being, not to mention naive. Can't see how your presence would have benefited the area whatsoever. You snapped at us after waiting a whopping 34 minutes for a reply, and then you got the honest advice you were looking for--namely that the area is in fact a bit shady but that a cautious friendliness might help you feel safer. You then reacted in a bizarre tantrum as if you had been insulted, and even referred to yourself as a "victim". Of what, exactly, of having seen an "unsavory type". :roll:

Furthermore, I'd never spend $700K for that area, so I guess the benefit is mutual. Please consider Hoboken.

emmaviz

Subject: Not impressed

All I can say is, there are a lot worse things that can happen to you in Brooklyn, like getting mugged, or walking by the pool of blood where those guys were shot the other day. Everyone I know has had something like this happen to them and they haven't completely flippped out and wanted to move out. So the fact that you saw a crazy person is really just not that impressive. You've been watching the evening news too much, that shit makes you crazy.

armchair_warrior

yeah alot of these guys have jobs . unlike me. anyway 700k seems a bit too high for that area. you could buy a house in some middle class areas for that price in brooklyn.

ltjbukem

guest, you reek of a recent gentrifier who's just discovered that your dollar goes farther in brooklyn. get a grip! this sh*t has gone on for years in bed stuy and will continue to do so for a lot longer.

you're the reason why the natives are so upset. don't try and move into a neighborhood and immediately expect it to change, or think that you should call the cops for what you deemed a major incident.

nor expect pity from other ppl when they don't share your sense of urgency in how you can clean out the neighborhood!!

thalia

gotcha..700k on an apt? ok y did you not say so..

here's the scoop.. all those unsavory characters are really method actors from the local drama group practicing their craft

.

isla

Robin/Guest: this is the nature of a gentrifying area. It is just fact.

bifteck wrote: This is still New York and there are still "unsavory types" everywhere, no matter how nice your real estate agent said the area was becoming. The key word there is "becoming" -- although the landscape is changing, there are still plenty of people from the "old guard," which is, frankly, what a lot of people like about the area.

Exactly. Heck, I lived in Stuyvesant Town and saw just as many unsavory characters there as I do here. This is NYC. It is what makes many like it, like myself. I do not want homogeneous stores, neighbors, community members and the like.

No one is apathetic--they are realistic. I care, but I also respect the neighborhood and what it is. A mentally disturbed person does not bother me, as long as they are not directly causing me problems. Mentally disturbed people are everywhere. I care about my neighborhood so I help my neighbors, get to know people and businesses and spend my dollars here. But I also know it is package deal, so to speak. It might not be the cleanest, most homogeneous, chain store filled place, but that is what gives it character.

Awareness is key, you are right. It is essential to living in any urban area. But knowing a description of a possibly offensive character does not constitute awareness. Awareness is paying attention to your surroundings, know what is going on and not having your head up your bottom.

There are many places to live in NYC so if you are uncomfortable in a not quite gentrified area then you should consider elsewhere.

nicolamj

Sorry to break it to you Robin, but yes, that neighborhood is not very nice. It's better than it used to be, but still a rough place. Now, many people, including many on this board, don't care about that, but I'm sure it was a shock to you if you only now just realized.

You may be wondering, "But how could an expensive, luxury condo be built in a sketchy neighborhood?" All I can say to that is, "Welcome to New York." Lately there has been TONS of development in 'developing' areas. Some are devlopments in truly up-and-coming neighborhoods, but some are lush palaces that seem to be air-lifted into the most random and isolated areas that are still a long way from having any of the mod-cons that middle and upper-middle class homeowners expect.

Now, lots of people who buy and rent in that area know full well what they are getting into. They like the price cut, and they are aware of the good things about the neighborhood and feel that this outways the bad.

However, I don't think that was the case for you (in terms of knowing what you were getting into). If you don't feel comfortable in the nabe, then don't buy there. And the next realtor who tries to sell you on an 'up-and-coming' nabe - do some research and visit the nabe a few times and at different times of the day.

As was mentioned before, I'm not sure what you wanted to get out of this post. I think, more than anything, it's a testament to how greedy developers are plopping lux buildings all over the city, and then bloodthirsty realtors use every trick in the book to sell when the developers realize they're having trouble getting people to buy.

I'm just curious Robin - what was your renting/buying experience in NYC before this?

anonymous

You're right.

Anonymous wrote: Wow. Well I guess this is not of interest to anyone on this board. I am not sure what I have gotten myself into moving into this area, I really hope that I did not make a big mistake and I hope that the apathy of this board is not an indicator of the level of concern in the community.

escap

nicolamj wrote: I think, more than anything, it's a testament to how greedy developers are plopping lux buildings all over the city,

Why do you say "greedy"? Is this just some knee-jerk reaction or automatic adjective? Red rose, silent night, greedy developer? What's greedy about building a nice apartment complex in a bad neighborhood? On the contrary, do you remember the 70s and 80s, when no investor for miles would dare spend a cent on most of this area and all the housing stock and infrastructure was in a state of decay? Is it just the pursuit of money that makes developers greedy? Well, then I guess that makes pretty much all human beings greedy, so you might as well just substitute the word "normal". Sorry they don't build tons of housing and sell it at a loss; while they're at it, Kraft ought to be selling its food at a loss, Exxon should be selling gas at a loss, and surely all the small businesses in Brooklyn should be selling at a loss as well. Or do you consider them all "greedy" as well? Actually, I can think of one great example of a company that targets the working poor as its customers and makes every effort to make sure its product is sold at rock-bottom "affordable" prices: Wal-mart. And look at the thanks that gets them. :roll:

Rant over.

thalia

raises hand on the subject of W-mart..u think its ok for them to screw employees over??

for the most part I agree wid you about developers..they often take chances no one else will...prime example the brownstone in which i currently rent an apt..l/lord and partners bought it back in '81..now when I freak out about certain buying in certain parts of the nabe he just laffs at me basically yu juss decide to deal wid it or not..but spare me the I'm not in Kansas anymore routine

nicolamj

In terms of greedy developers, I was actually thinking more of the buildings that are billed as luxury, but are actually low quality. The whole 'slap up any old crap, it'll sell like hotcakes' thing, which is actually an insult to the community. Probably a bit off topic, since the building Robin was talking about may actually be well-constructed.

I should probably say 'disengenuos' developers/realtors then, since the building and it's neighborhood were clearly misrepresented to Robin.

As far as the whole, 'Remember the 80s when no one would build in NYC...' song and dance - I fail to really see how that's really relevent now - yes, hurrah for those developers who had faith in the city, but times are vastly different now, and the old policies that helped then (like tax abatement) are laughingly ridiculous now.

I'm a capitalist, but a bitter one from trying to scrape by in the NYC housing market, just like everyone else.

ANYWAY, Robin, although your idea of asking about the crazy guy was a good one, and you should always be active in your neighborhood's associations and meetings, nothing you're describing is actually illegal. The community is actually very vocal and active in trying to make Bed-Stuy a better place to live, but they may have trouble taking you seriously if you complain about one crazy dude and a few girls talking about jail time.

I think many on this board may have overreacted to your statements, and hope you continue to contribute to this board, but realize that many people on THIS board live in Bed-Stuy and like it very much, so they may have strong feelings about these subjects. We're all good people here, so don't insult us by assuming/accusing us of apathy or getting all incensed and talking about taking your 700k elsewhere.

anonymous

"Friendly neighborhood bum"? Do you really talk like that? Or is this whole posting some sort of joke? Of course it is. It is is an attempt by the webmaster to provoke a mob to drive the naive 700k condo-buying snob out of town. Almost got me!

anonymous

I did not mean to offend anyone. First off, I am currently renting near Classon and Lafayette. I checked and that is still Clinton Hill. What's more important is that I am moving very close by almost around the corner in a development called the Shoe Factory. I currently live one block from the Choice market to give you a better idea of where I am located-not in bedford stuyvesant though if I found a brownstone on a nice block I would not hesistate to move to bedford stuyvesant either. You see, it is not the name of the neighborhood that matters but the people that live there. Where I am currently there are beautiful well kept brownstones and there is the appearance of a community that cares. This is one of the reasons that I considered purchasing a condo at market rate well over 700k in the neighborhood. I know it may be easy for some to shrug this off but that is still alot of money for some people and I do expect a return on my investment. The return I expect is to not be afraid when I leave my home. I never had that feeling in this neighborhood the fact that there is a housing project nearby notwithstanding. However, the reaction that I recieved on this board is interesting in that I was warned that in some neighborhoods people resent change especially when initiated by an "outsider". This puzzles me because I would think that everyone would be behind an initiative that would only benefit their quality of life. No one wants to see a psycopath walking around a residential neighborhood. Would I accept the psycho in Times Square?? Sure. I would not like it but I don't live in Times Square, so why are we so blase about these things in our own neighborhhod? Young girls discussing prison time and we brush it off? These people are openly announcing that they are criminals and they are in our midst? Should we not attempt to discourage these types from being so visible? I am sorry if I offend anyone but I honestly do not think that what I am saying is far fetched. Another poster asked about my previous living/buying history in NY. Let me preface this by saying I am a young professional African-American woman. I grew up in Soho before it was really fashionable to do so. My mother was an attorney and my father an artist. I moved out of NYC for a period of years to complete college and then I moved back to NYC I bought my first apartment on the Upper West Side and then moved and bought my second apartment in Soho. I was one of the kuck people that actually benefitted during the dot-come days, I know many did not. When Soho lost its appeal, I began looking for a place in a more 'colorful, lively and diverse' area. Several friends suggested brooklyn and so long story short here I am. So yes, I have plenty of experience both owning and renting in this city and I am not very picky but there are some things I will not compromise on. Quality of life is one of them.

escap

Nicolamj, I was so pleasantly amazed to see that you had responded to my off-topic rant with a thoughtful, polite response. Wow!! Thanks! I will agree that developers/brokers are certainly getting ballsy in the prices that they are asking, and are trying to take advantage of the housing bubble by pretending that highly suspect properties are in fact "luxury". Certainly, as always, buyers must beware.

Which brings us to Robin. I doubt you'll find much sympathy with the notion that we need to reduce the visibility of girls who discuss prison time. More importantly, I can confidently say that there's little you can do about it. What are you planning, exactly? Background checks required for all CH residents? The only process likely to reduce the sort of element you're complaining about is called gentrification, and openly espousing it will not likely win you many friends.

My problem is that your logic seems to go like this: "I'm paying a lot, so the area better be good." But isn't that backwards? Shouldn't the price conform to the product, not the other way around? I guess we're all screwed as buyers in this city, but if you're set on that area then you will need to be patient. My parents bought a place in Fort Greene in 1976 after renting in Clinton Hill for several years before that. The area was horrendous, and they basically had to just grit their teeth and bear it for a couple of decades. But at least it was cheap! You need to have a critical eye for appropriate pricing, and a lot of patience, to make it pay off. That area you're describing is certainly "up and coming", but it is not Soho.

thalia

Robin..The Shoe Factory apts are very nice...I briefly considered them. I totally understand where you are coming from..I have lived in brownstone Clinton Hill for 15 yrs and I'm now moving to what I personally do not consider a desirable part of FG..however the apt and bldg are very nice. When I found out how close I would be to the projects I was far from thrilled.. for all the same reasons you cited..ROI, safety etc..so please don't mistake my comments for apathy or lack of concern..it was more a reaction to your tone.

How do you suggest this element be encouraged not to show themselves? Bearing in mind that they live here and have the same rights as everyone else. Honestly if it concerns you that much perhaps you should return when the nabe has been properly sanitised..but wait..by then that 700K apt will be how much?/

anonymous

Robin:

People are concerned about quality of life issues in the area you are talking about, but mumbling mentally disturbed guys and girls discussing prison time are poor examples. There's nothing to be done about such people because they are not doing anything illegal in the description you gave above.

The tone of your email became antagonistic so quickly, for lack of an immediate response, that you received an earful, and imo rightfully so.

That said, whether 700K is market rate for what you are bidding on is hard to say without knowing the property in detail and the location. In the end, the edge of BedStuy/Clinton Hill is still up and coming. Heck, in 2002, people still called prime Fort Greene up and coming. People in the community are concerned about quality of life issues and do make their voices heard. There will always be those who equate change, even when it is for the better for everyone in terms of reduced crime etc., as part of the evils of gentrification. I think that is misplaced anger and is not worth discussing. If you want to move into a gentrifying area, you will have to deal with that sort of attitude from time to time.

I can understand your concern, regardless of the tone you used. If an up an coming area is not your cup of tea right now, then have a good think about whether this is where you want to be right now. There is still a real mix of truly rough ghetto/ex-con/drug dealer types, buppies, yuppies, hipsters, artists, young professionals and their new families, students and combinations of the foregoing in the area you are considering. I know that the down and out criminal element is what concerns you, and it concerns most residents. Just don't be blind to it when considering buying here, but at the same time understand it does not dominate the character of the area either. In time, it will be gone, but not in the immediate future, though things are changing quickly.

nicolamj

Thanks, escap. I believe that we are all awesome/mature enough to discuss the meat of Robin's post without degenerating into a flame war, even though no one could have intentionally crafted a post that would be more likely to cause one (which Robin probably didn't know). I did consider a guest's above suggestion that it was a fake (ha!), but I thought I would try to give the post the benefit of the doubt.

jimmylegs

Robin, it just seems very odd of you to ask about one crazy homeless guy, as though he is the only one in the whole city. if you are really as familiar with the city as you claim, it seems like you would be used to crazy guys, as well as the other less-than-well-off types. (and the girls in the chinese restaurant, couldn't they have been talking about probation?) bottom line, if you don't feel safe in the neighborhood, then that's your answer about buying in it.

that said, i've lived across the street from the 'shoe factory' lofts (we used to just call it 'that empty building over there') for 6 years. i think the neighborhood has been wonderful but in the past couple of years it's actually gone over the top with its gentrifying forces. the place is getting too swanky for my tastes, but it may suit you better. there are certainly fewer homeless people on the street these days.

tommyill

Robin,

If you still plan on staying in Clinton Hill I have a few suggestions for you:
1. The people who you want to be less visible are someone's children, and have as much right to live in this neighborhood as you do: show them at least a little respect.
2. Many people in the neighborhood do care that there are people that are less advantaged around us. If the reality of there being mentally ill and people with criminal records in the neighborhood is unpleasant to you, maybe you can volunteer to help people change their position in life. Getting involved with local government is also a good idea, you can help us ensure that we get the money we need to improve and protect our neighborhood.
3. Do some more research. I am frankly a bit surprised that you have these concerns after buying a 700K apartment (we all agree that is a lot of money). Get to know some people on your new block. Express your issues to them and see if they are as put off as many of us were - if so, maybe it's not a good fit.
4. Don't look to a message board for the answer to "Should I feel safe here". At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. I feel safe in the neighborhood, but I am a man in my mid-thirties who grew up in the Bronx and have lived in Brooklyn for almost ten years. I can't say how I would feel if I were you, and I don't think anyone can.

anonymous

Subject: Oh yeah, and don't buy it

Nobody really mentioned this either: by buying a crazily overpriced apartment, you're just encouraging those inflated prices they insist are "market." Without the many versions of you buying, the demand goes down. Market price goes down. Don't buy a place in a sketchy ass area at 700k. That's nuts.

queencallipygos

Robin:

Do yourself a favor and avoid the Lower East Side. Something tells me you wouldn't like it there either.

(Even though, personally, I first moved to the LES twelve years ago, before it was gentrified, and actually felt LESS safe when the "unsavory element" was kicked out -- because the local mom-and-pop places went with them. And the mom-and-pop business owners all recognized me and said hello and knew who I was, and I knew that if I were ever in trouble I could run inside their shops in an emergency and they'd probably look after me -- but once it got gentrified, and all the upperclass boutiques came in, I knew the high-end shopkeepers would probably want to take a NIMBY approach, and didn't know me from a hole in the ground anyway.

(I got priced out anyway, so it's just as well.)

anonymous

Subject: Um, I thohgt we lived in New York City

Last time I checked, Brooklyn was part of New York City. As someone who was born and raised here, the sight of a homeless man, rowdy kids who may do time and the deli thug is not really shocking. I've been in the West Village and seen this and the property values are much higher than in Clinton Hill. In fact, I've never know a neighborhood NOT to have these elements. Even SoHo has them.

This is what city life is like. Now, if you were looking for some utopia, I would try the suburbs, maybe Jersey. But honestly, you will not find it there either. It just is harder to spot.

If the "crazy" homeless guy bothers you, just call the cops. And while I'm sure those sketchy guys on the corner are just trying to sell some drugs - if they bother you, just call the cops. As for the kids, I have no idea.

Unfortunately, the Giuliani administration was not able to eradicate every example of the unfortunate side of city living. So we do have to live with people who are not as well educated, well funded, or, um, legally inclined(?). You either have to live with it, help out, or move out.

anonymous

Subject: homeless in c-h follow up

well there are some sketchy characters around the neighborhood, whatever you income and/or portfolio, and there are actions to be taken accordingly.

i live on myrtle and washington and was recently verbally harassed by the older black man with the sunken eyes who is frequently outside the a-rod bodega, often standing in the middle of the sidewalk in some kind of daze. the a-rod staff often allow him to loiter inside and the owners of the liquor store across the street sometimes give him worwashing their windows. at first i thought this was sweet and caring. after being screamed at by him and called a "faggot" in broad daylight with scared children present, i no longer hold that opinion. in this specific instance, all enabling of this man should stop. he is a menace and, frankly, an asshole. there are more deserving hard-luck souls in the hood who deserve this warmth. i called the cops on him immediately and he hasn't spoken to me since nor do i see him out on the street as often.

this is one specific case, and by no means my "rule" when it comes to vagrants and the homeless. i encourage people to behave similarly if PROVOKED (and only if!) and to speak to those who might encouage him/her to remain in the neighborhood so they are aware of abhorrent behavior.

the changeling

I think I know the guy you're talking about. One afternoon when I came out of Myrtle Thai he was standing outside halfway bent over in a daze. I don't know why the owners of the local stores would even allow him to hang out around there.

bifteck

While I definitely try to avoid this kind of people, and ignore them if they try to talk to me, I can't help but feel pity rather than contempt. In all likelihood he is severely mentally ill and not receiving any help for his illness. If this is the case, he probably can't help much of his behavior. Calling the cops on him might put him put in jail temporarily, but he'll be released eventually only to begin the cycle over again. My heart goes out to these people even though they might be a nuisance or an eyesore -- and even though I may initially feel apprehensive.