HELP ! Noisy Neighbor in Co-Op

bkuser

Ok, I know this may be a dead horse, but this post is a mix of help me and rant. I'm awake right now not because of New Year's Eve, but because my neighbor upstairs is blasting techno on his stereo system made too large for apartments of this size and poor insulation between floors. I bought my co-op about 8 months ago, and slowly have come to realize the major noise issues. First it was the upstairs neighbor. I've asked him a few times to turn down the music, which on the most part he's done. Until recently, I also thought TV noise was coming from his apartment, but in fact, it's coming from the neighbor below who has some mega-TV system with speakers that are probably right near the ceiling.

I've been keeping a log of the times I've gone up to talk to the neighbor (after allowable hours) to turn it down, as well as times when it's just the constant beat of techno around 6 pm every night. However, that is nothing compared to tonite.

Yes, it's new year's eve, and therefore, the dilemma. I am highly tolerant of everyday apartment living noises. But this is really too much. It's currently near 2:30 am and the techno is at full blast where the bass has been vibrating my walls, fixtures, and distorted enough that I feel like I'm literally in a dance club and my ears ring each time the song changes (which is not often if you know techno). They are now whoo-hoo'ing and hey-ho'ing. I haven't gone up because well.. it's new year's eve. And wouldn't I look like the spoil sport? I actually opted to relax because I had a whirlwind visit from friends overseas and am exhausted.

What do I do?? Write management? Write the co-op president?? In fact, I just saw a co-op member who tried to bang on their door, but they refused to come to the door. And they just continue to play the music.

HELP! I think this guy is a renter too... I just don't want to get into this horrible situation where he's just going to get vengeful. I just want him to keep the music at a tolerable level. Even at 2:30 am on new year's day. (ok, he had his music from 8 to now at this full blast--it's enough!).

anonymous

You wouldn't be near ocean and woodward would you?

I think I live down the hall from this guy.

anonymous

me too. let's call the cops!

brooklynpotter

you need to do things if you are serious about dealing with this situation.

a: call 311 and have them come asap. it's 3 am, i don't care if it's new years eve. if i could tell the police which backyard in one of the houses behind me was having the keg party then i would call them about my own noise issue here.

b: make a formal complaint to your coop board. it is their LEGAL responsibility to make sure your apartment is habitable. trust me when i tell you that i am dealing with a tenant situation above me in a coop building where there are already lawyers involved. it's the coop's job to keep things sane so make them accountable.

bkuser

well i'm not on ocean and woodward, but out there enough (just past park slope). i know everyone says to call 311, but I am really more concerned about retaliation. call me a wuss, but let's be realistic. he's a big beefy guy who has strange hours. in fact, right now, i think it's one big sex orgy up there (ok, not positive... maybe all that rhythmic noise is the techno :P) . i think they can still cover it up by reducing the volume by half.

I've drafted up a letter to management and may be talking to the super (who in the past said he'd put in a word to the tenant if my talking to him didn't help). i plan to also send a copy to the co-op board. i've even considered selling the unit or subletting it later (it would behoove the co op board to want to keep things quieter if everyone did this!) although I really can't afford to and worse, don't want the hassle of moving once again. I would have to rent.

i have a feeling a lot of tenants in this building don't say anything. which is very odd to me. once, there was a big party at a house behind the apt. building (louder than even now), and someone called 311 but the police didn't come out.

anonymous

Also be realistic, I have called 311 several times about the party in my building and they honestly don't care, and tomorrrow mornnig when I call
for an update they will tell me that they did send someone.

Something I will patently know is false.

bkuser

it's now 3:47 and it's loud as ever. i want to cry.

bkuser

omg.. finally it stopped!!! how considerate of them to let me start sleeping at 4 am.

brooklynjack

By all means write to the management. That should get to the board but you can also CC them and send registered return receipt care of the management.

If this is a problem tenant and a renter they might want him out just as much and welome something in writing that they can use as ammunition.

brooklynpotter

tenants/renters are pretty hard to get rid of; nearly impossible if they're rent stabilized.

that said, this is your home. and, again, the coop has a legal obligation to you. take this seriously.

and in the meantime, buy yourself some earplugs.

nathan

Next time,

1. Position your speakers on the top of two ladders aimed up at the floor of their bedroom. (If you're able, shim things up so that the speakers actually touch the ceiling.)

2. Wait until approximately 1/2 hour to 45 minutes after they've turned off music. (give them time to doze off.)

3. Crank up something really loud and UN-techno. I suggest the finale of the 1812 Overture. (Make sure you've got the cannons dialed in for maximum effect.)

Childish, but fun!

brooklynpotter

Nathan wrote: Next time,

1. Position your speakers on the top of two ladders aimed up at the floor of their bedroom. (If you're able, shim things up so that the speakers actually touch the ceiling.)

2. Wait until approximately 1/2 hour to 45 minutes after they've turned off music. (give them time to doze off.)

3. Crank up something really loud and UN-techno. I suggest the finale of the 1812 Overture. (Make sure you've got the cannons dialed in for maximum effect.)

Childish, but fun!

if you're looking to incur wrath, this is pretty much the way to do it.

bkuser

Yeah. It's something I'd love to do, but I feel it would give them the feeling of justification to be more obnoxious. I have cranked up my own music before to mask theirs, and it helps, but then it rules out my enjoying dinner or watching a tv show. Unnerves me to no end.

Oh, and as for rent-stabilization, I don't think his apartment is. I believe he rents it from the owner for about 5 yrs now. I'll have to ask the super, but he did tell me he rents.

By the way, just factual information (not anything I have a problem with), but just about 80% of the owners in this apartment are from the same country. So I have fun language barriers as well. I just find it hard to believe no one else complains about this on his floor (he's on the top floor). I dont' know if it's because they just don't collectively like to complain or what, or it's one countryman looking after another.. who knows.

I'd like to handle this in a diplomatic (read: manipulative) way without incurring wrath.

brooklynpotter

bkuser wrote:
I'd like to handle this in a diplomatic (read: manipulative) way without incurring wrath.

there's really no diplomatic way to deal with assholes.

in my last apartment my landlord refused to do anything about a very loud situation above me. i ended up taking the tenant to court: the judge sent us to mediate, she refused to mediate. we went back to court and i was given the option of letting them see my log of incidents and having her fined for each and every one, or having the judge threaten her with that. i chose the latter, not because i'm nice but because it pretty much kept her in check.

keep a log. take it seriously, otherwise you really have nothing to complain about. (this isn't meant to sound snotty, it's just really the way it is)

quig

A couple of things to check out:

Look the bylaws, offering plan etc. with a fine tooth comb. Most co ops have specific rules about renting out apartments i.e. length of time co ops can be rented. In many cases, co ops will overlook long term rentals, just because they don't want to deal with the hassle of evicting a tenant.

Also, depending on the bylaws they may have to have to have 80% of the floor carpeted.



Remember, the devil is in the details.

bkuser

i have been keeping a log. Although, it wasn't til recently I realized it's mixed now between what I've heard from below and above (music is usually indicating it's from above; tv is from below).

In any case.. do the logs when it's excessively loud even during house rule hours matter??

I was tempted to write the management months ago, but I really wanted to be able to say that a) i waited a while to see if it would remedy itself, b) that I had approached the guy at least twice , and c) that I had talked to the super. The last I still have to do.

But they may very well have the attitude: that level of noise was special just to new year's eve. The fact of the matter is, how much are they going to care that 3-4 times a week, they put on pounding techno around dinner time?? Of course, after last nite, that level seems blissful now.

brooklynpotter

bkuser wrote:
In any case.. do the logs when it's excessively loud even during house rule hours matter??

yes, excessive noise is excessive noise.

you're letting these idiots bully you and you need to stand up and stop it. unless you think they have guns. and if that's the case, sublet or move.

bkuser

quig wrote: A couple of things to check out:

Look the bylaws, offering plan etc. with a fine tooth comb. Most co ops have specific rules about renting out apartments i.e. length of time co ops can be rented. In many cases, co ops will overlook long term rentals, just because they don't want to deal with the hassle of evicting a tenant.

Also, depending on the bylaws they may have to have to have 80% of the floor carpeted.



Remember, the devil is in the details.

The guy does have carpeting. Goes to show how loud that music is that even that doesn't work. And there is an 80% rule.

Also, as many know, some co ops are more lax than others. I have a feeling many people break most rules in this building and no one does much because they all are doing it. Not sure how management would be. They seem nice enough but not sure how they deal with these things.

A small glimmer of hope is that the board appears to be trying to make changes little by little by selling to people who are more caring of their apartment. This area is changing and more "park slopers" are coming in. Unfortunately, the owners in place all know each other, and when they sell, they seem to sell to another immigrant from their country. (Again, nothing against them... but it does make a slight difference to the general attitude here. Not to mention, most of them are very very heavy smokers.

brooklynpotter

ok, here's the deal (at least in my opinion, and bear in mind that i am grumpy and tired):

don't accept excuses. you have ONE problem: loud and inconsiderate neighbors whom the coop board won't deal with. if you go to the board with all these complaints, which stem from this ONE problem, then you may very well get nowhere because it will appear it's too much to deal with.

you're making this harder than it has to be. unless you're living underneath a tenant whose behavior you can't stop/change (like me, but that's another whole story), then hop to it.

bkuser

brooklynpotter wrote: ok, here's the deal (at least in my opinion, and bear in mind that i am grumpy and tired):

don't accept excuses. you have ONE problem: loud and inconsiderate neighbors whom the coop board won't deal with. if you go to the board with all these complaints, which stem from this ONE problem, then you may very well get nowhere because it will appear it's too much to deal with.

you're making this harder than it has to be. unless you're living underneath a tenant whose behavior you can't stop/change (like me, but that's another whole story), then hop to it.

I plan to just address the noise complaint. I agree it's too much for all the complaints. I am not yet sure if the co op is unwilling to deal with it. But at least I can get it a record started.

brooklynjack

You might also consider getting a sound pressure meter like one of these;

http://www.action-electronics.com/dbmeter.htm

You might also find this some interesting reading;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E5D9103BF932A25750C0A9679C8B63

bkuser

BrooklynJack wrote: You might also consider getting a sound pressure meter like one of these;

http://www.action-electronics.com/dbmeter.htm

You might also find this some interesting reading;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E5D9103BF932A25750C0A9679C8B63

thanks! good tip on the decibel reader. I seem to see those noise questions a lot in the papers, and it's often in the favor of the noise maker. As they said in the article... they expect that one should be aware it's part of city life. Like I said, i'm more than tolerant about many things. But this was intolerable.

brooklynpotter

somehow, my psycho upstairsicka got the city DEP guys to come with their decibal meter to measure the sound of my a/c--one of five, i might add, in our airshaft. stupidly, i let them in. stupidly, i turned it on and off for them to read the decibals. my luck, since my a/c was the closest to hers, turning it on again made the meter jump.

(before this, when i refused to move it, she spent one evening shining a bright flashlight in and out of my bedroom window as i was trying to sleep.)

ergo, i had to move the a/c (though i was told by the city that if i didn't want to let the guys in again i didn't have to, and that then there would be no way to prove it. but moving it seemed easier than having to deal with the wrath. that was a mistake.

drano

brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=Nathan]Next time,

1. Position your speakers on the top of two ladders aimed up at the floor of their bedroom. (If you're able, shim things up so that the speakers actually touch the ceiling.)

2. Wait until approximately 1/2 hour to 45 minutes after they've turned off music. (give them time to doze off.)

3. Crank up something really loud and UN-techno. I suggest the finale of the 1812 Overture. (Make sure you've got the cannons dialed in for maximum effect.)

Childish, but fun!

if you're looking to incur wrath, this is pretty much the way to do it.

I hate to say it, but that attitude is precisely why the assholes of this world get away with as much as they do. Clearly - and perhaps not without reason - these idiots aren't too worried about the OP's wrath even though they are the ones fucking with him/her. Maybe it's time for that to change.

But yeah, if you think you might get shot up, don't do that.

anonymous

I had exactly this problem. Tenant renting from owner who was incredibly obnoxious, noisy, and also flooded my place three or four times. I wrote to the board. I called board members. Nothing happened. I hired a lawyer. He wrote to the board. He spoke to the board's lawyer. In every communication we pointed ut that this tenant had stayed longer than the proprietary lease allowed, but still, nothing was done.

My advice: write one letter to board saying that if they don't do something about this situation pronto, that you are hiring lawyer to take them to court for warranty of habitability issues, potentially illegal subletting, harassment, intentional infliction of emotional distress (and anything else you can think of). And then you have to do it.

Good luck.

anonymous

Oh, yeah...one more thing. Both me and my lawyer suggested that sound attenuation be installed above me, paid for by the owner of the unit, or, alternatively, by the board. (At one point, though, I offered to pay for half.) This was a big mistake. It gave the board more options to endlessly consider. Cut to the chase. Write that letter and hire a lawyer. Don't get into it with the tenant. Your real beef isn't with him. It's with the board who won't do anything about him.

brooklynpotter

exLofter wrote: Don't get into it with the tenant. Your real beef isn't with him. It's with the board who won't do anything about him.

though it sounds like bkuser hasn't really pushed the whole thing with the board yet. i don't know how small or large your board is, but i think you can be firmer at first with a larger board in a larger building.

most small boards don't know all the laws regarding the corporation's obligations, and i'd think it best not to come in with guns blazing. plus, if it's a small building you'll be running into these people all the time, so i'd try to keep it as civil as possible in the beginning.

and none of this says you shouldn't do this and do it with gusto.

8thandprez

We're having a similar situation in our building. New tenant moved in a few months ago... had the misfortune of ending up in the apt below our building's resident 200-year old deaf tenant. She listens to the radio at full blast and falls asleep with it on. The poor guy has been going out of his mind trying to get her to wake up... but, she's deaf and can't hear him pounding on her door. The bldg owner installed sound-attenuating tiles on his ceiling, but he says they've done nothing.

He's gotten more aggressive lately, pounding, kicking on the door, shouting "Shut off the goddamn music, you old hag." I'm two floors above and off to the side and I'm frequently amazed by how loud he can pound on her door. Last night, at 1:00 am, I was surprised to find him outside on the fire escape (!) pounding on her window (!!).

I have mixed emotions... I feel really bad for the guy. This woman can't take care of herself and needs to be in an assisted-living facility. The bldg owner can't get her out. The radio is truly loud, although we can't hear it inside our apartment. At the same time, he's making a huge amount of noise and is disrupting sleep for the rest of us. Thoughts?

brooklynpotter

8th and prez., has anyone actually spoken to her? does she know about the problem and just isn't doing anything about it? perhaps the board can offer to buy her those infrared hearing devices for TV? they're pretty cheap.

have you spoken with anyone in her family? her church? does the city have any community outreach for aging? (they do for mental health, btw. this, also, has not deterred my untenable psycho upstairsicka... but i digress)

unfortunately, this should be taken care of by the building owner. and your window-pounding neighbor should go to nolo and find out how to hold rent in escrow for when an apartment in uninhabitable.

8thandprez

Apparently the besieged tenant has spoken to her, as has the bldg owner. She's very, very old and not 100% present. She's definitely not fit to live alone.

I don't know about your infrared device suggestion... she listens to the radio, not tv. Plus, there's no board to buy the device (it's a rental bldg). The owner says he's unable to do anything to get her out, I assume bc she's rent stabilized.

brooklynpotter

but the owner isn't fulfilling his obligation to give you a habitable place to live.