Which neighborhood is this considered?

dakotas way

What neighborhood is the cornor of St.Johns' and Franklin? Is it Prospect Heights? Crown Heights? Or somewhere in between.
Just curious

alafairnadia

it's crown heights.

dakotas way

Thanks

annarebeck

Does it become CH once you cross Washington?

bojolais

Washington is the historical border to Crown Heights, although the real estate people are trying to extend it to Franklin...

carnivore

The real estate people would try to extend it to the Van Wyck if they could. It doesn't make it true.

alafairnadia

like I've said before, I kinda mentally extend the borders to almost classon - heck, I moved to PH because my friend lived on prospect btwn grand and classon (in that mint green house) and I loved PH. now I know that's not strictly PH, but that's how I think about it. but the minute you hit classon, my brain shuts off the open border policy.

doctorj

For bonus marks: what neighborhood is the bus depot on Grand between Dean and Pacific officially in?

chrispy

For bonus marks: what neighborhood is the bus depot on Grand between Dean and Pacific officially in?

You're still in Crown Heights. Prospect Heights has a northern border of Atlantic, western border of Flatbush, southern border of Eastern Parkway, and eastern border of Washington. Pretty simple.

alafairnadia

chrispy wrote:

For bonus marks: what neighborhood is the bus depot on Grand between Dean and Pacific officially in?

You're still in Crown Heights. Prospect Heights has a northern border of Atlantic, western border of Flatbush, southern border of Eastern Parkway, and eastern border of Washington. Pretty simple.

are you sure? just like CH can cross e.pkway, I think bed stuy or one of the mysterious clinton hill/ft.green (those borders make no sense to me, but whatever) can cross atlantic at a certain point. weren't people arguing for awhile on the CH board that part of CH north is bed stuy? or am I making this all up?

doctorj

chrispy wrote:

For bonus marks: what neighborhood is the bus depot on Grand between Dean and Pacific officially in?

You're still in Crown Heights. Prospect Heights has a northern border of Atlantic, western border of Flatbush, southern border of Eastern Parkway, and eastern border of Washington. Pretty simple.

I don't believe Crown Heights lays claims to any land West of Grand, and historically it's claims on territory North of Dean are shaky.

jack krohn

If Crown Heights begins at Washington, then why is the high school on the corner of Classon called Prospect Heights H.S.? Someone had better call the city and tell them to scale the building and chisel in the correct name.

apollonia666

doctorj wrote: For bonus marks: what neighborhood is the bus depot on Grand between Dean and Pacific officially in?

There's a bus depot there? I had no idea and I live a block and a half from there. Then again, when I head towards Atlantic I usually go down Classon or Washington.

alafairnadia

I tend to go down grand. it's closer to white castle.

whyfi

alafairnadia wrote: I tend to go down grand. it's closer to white castle.

A girl after my own heart...

doctorj

So here's what I've figured:

Fort Greene ends at Atlantic in the South, and Vanderbilt in the East, so it can't have the bus depot.

Because we go all the way to Atlantic, Clinton Hill can't have it.

Bedstuy ends at Classon in the West, so it can't have it, but historically it claims a few streets South of Atlantic, possibly as far as Park.

That boxes Crown heights out of those blocks; plus, it has a natural tendency to either end in the West where Bedstuy does at Classon, and beyond which it cannot extend in the South because of the BBG and the park on the corner opposite the museum. It might try claim some blocks North of Eastern Pkwy and West of Classon up to Washington, but past the corner of Grand and Park, it's really pushing its luck.

So, as long as we refuse to acknowledge anything East of Washington as ours, this glorious triangle of land that houses the scenic bus depot, will remain terra nullius.

alafairnadia

hilarious! did you notice that there are several shapes of unclaimed land in brooklyn?! there is the triangle that you brought forth, doctorj. also, did you see the mysterious star-esque chunk that claims a triangle south of PH, west of CH, north of PLG and is attached to prospect park, which completes the star?? and then there's that triangle next to greenwood cemetary, just north of borough park and west of kensington and parkville? and there's a wavy rectangle south of windsor terrace. badass. and another triangle between CH, brownsville and bed-stuy.

oh my. time to make up names, people.

doctorj

alafairnadia wrote:
oh my. time to make up names, people.

Actually, I support the rights of indigenous peoples to self-determination. Let those who live in these no-man's-lands speak forth, and decide for themselves whether they wish to federate with an established nabe or seek recognition as an independent enclave with a moniker of their own choosing.

I for one don't wish to foist Prospectheightsdom on neighborhoodless people eeking out a living near the cnr of Dean and Grand, but would accept them willingly (this side of Classon) should they choose to join us.

sterlingguy

I just finished writing a paper for a community organizing class on the history of Prospect Heights/Crown Heights. Anyone who think they have a definitive answer is fooling themselves (as is anyone who scorns the role of real estate agents in defining neighborhood boundaries). And for those of you with a little time on your hands, read on (if you dare)...

For what it is worth, here is what I learned while researching my paper:

The area known as Prospect Heights was farmland until the 1860's. After the completion of Prospect Park, developers wanted to create the next big wealthy neighborhood in the young City of Brooklyn. Brooklyn Heights had filled (East Side Swiss and Germans, I believe, around when the Brooklyn Bridge was finished) and Park Slope was getting there, so they bought up the blocks of Flatbush to Washington, Atlantic to Eastern Parkway (today's borders, although some reports do extend them to Bedford -- ridiculous, but if enough people believe it, that's all it takes...).
The blocks were filled with brownstones almost overnight.

Then with the incorporation of Brooklyn into the consolidated Greater New York City in 1898, development stopped (as did work on the Brooklyn Museum and the whole of Eastern Parkway). The neighborhood did not fill up as planned, so developers put ads in the New York Times (seen in the archives) for really cheap rents (not unlike Tish James attempts to secure agreements for less explensive rental units in the new "luxury condos" filling the neighborhood). Prospect Heights filled with mostly Italian immigrants, with some Irish and Jewish immigrants, of working and middle class. There was a Prospect Heights hospital and Prospect Heights Tennis League until the 1930's and early 40's.

In the 40's and 50's, the post-war boom allowed these families the wealth to move to the suburbs. In their place came Caribbean immigrants. In the 60's and 70's, crime and poverty rose dramatically in Brooklyn (as throughout the city). By the 70's, all mention of Prospect Heights ceases and only Crown Heights is named (mostly for race riots and crack).

In effect, it seems the Caribbean immigrants annexed Prospect Heights to Crown Heights and these blocks went under that name until the 80's. The border of Crown Heights (again, from research in the New York Times archives) seems to have been Vanderbilt (yes, that far over) with a no-man's land between Vanderbilt and Flatbush. Prospect Heights re-emerged for a moment in the late 80's, as tenant associations arose and coops started to form. The name disappeared again until the mid 1990's.

At that time, dropping crime states and interest rates created the real estate boom that so many have written about. Businesses and real estate agents started using the name "Prospect Heights". Residents iin gentrified neighborhoods started taking notice (especially renters from Park Slope, where 70% of all new residents have moved from -- taken from surveys performed by myself and Pratt Institute). According to long-time residents I have talked to, however, the blocks known (again) as Prospect Heights were still Crown Heights until about 2003 (this date was reported with amazing frequency). So we have come full circle: the blocks known as Prospect Heights became Crown Heights, but are once again Prospect Heights, which seems to be eating into Crown Heights.

If anyone read all of this posting, wow and thank you. If anyone can point to historical sources that contest ANYTHING of what I have said, I welcome it! DailyHeights was one of my sources for research as well, and I love talking and learning about the history of the neighborhood.

sprite

Very interesting, SterlingGuy. Thanks for posting!

sevenoneeighty

Thanks for the post very interesting.

Not sure if this contests anything or not but this monument is in the park naming Prospect heights...I'm also curious about the time between 1900-1940 and the naming of the neighborhood and its boundaries. The monument names prospect heights in November 1922 for a revolutionary war battle (the battle took place in was known as PH as of 1922...) the neighborhood was mentioned in the text on the plaque.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_your_park/historical_signs/hs_historical_sign.php?id=11746

DONGAN OAK MONUMENT
Prospect Park Battle Pass

One of several small monuments in the vicinity of what is known as the “Battle Pass” in Prospect Park, the Dongan Oak Monument commemorates events which took place in this area during the Battle of Long Island on August 27, 1776. During this significant battle of the Revolutionary War, a large white oak mentioned in 1685 in the patent of Governor Thomas Dongan (1634–1715), was cut down by Colonial soldiers and thrown across the road to impede the advance of the British army.

The monument, which commemorates the contribution of this important tree was commissioned at a cost of $2,000 by the St. Nicholas Society, and was dedicated on November 25, 1922. It consists of a bronze eagle mounted on a granite pedestal inscribed with dedicatory text. The sculptor of the original eagle was Frederick W. Ruckstull (1853–1942), whose public commissions also include the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Memorial in Major John Mark Park in Jamaica, Queens.

The eagle was stolen in 1974. In 1991 the Prospect Park Alliance sponsored the restoration of the monument and replication of the bronze eagle. Sculptor John Metrovics modeled the replacement based on historic photographs, and Alexander J. Ettl, the president of the Sculpture House, the original foundry, again supervised the casting of the replica. The restored monument was rededicated on June 6, 1991. The reinstallation included site improvements and new plantings around the monument. Unfortunately, the eagle was stolen again, but through additional contributions to the Prospect Park Alliance, a second replacement was made and attached to the plinth. Today, it stands proudly as a testament to the fortitude of the Colonists and the park’s caretakers.

Here is the battle:
http://www.brooklynonline.com/history/battle.xhtml

drano

Murphy's rule of neighborhoods: If you find yourself asking what neighborhood a given address is in, you may safely assume it is the less "desirable" of the two choices you have in mind.

sterlingguy

SevenOneEighty,

I think this monument is consistent with what I learned, since 1922 would be when the Prospect Heights Hospital and Prospect Heights Tennis Club were in their heyday and the neighborhood was a thriving community of Italian, Irish, and Jewish working and middle class families (first and second generation by this point, I would assume, since these families began moving in around the 1890's and 1900's). Thanks for the info!

For anyone else interested in Prospect Heights, there is a good entry in Wikipedia (which includes discussion of the Prospect Heights reservoir, where Mt. Prospect Park is today, behind the Brooklyn Library). There are also some good Brooklyn history sites with "genealogy" in the name (sorry, don't have my notes with me to give the urls, but google will find these easily). Also, NYC.gov has tons of great information, old and new.

the yarn monkey

Split the difference and call it Funky Town.

doctorj

SterlingGuy wrote: I just finished writing a paper for a community organizing class on the history of Prospect Heights/Crown Heights.

By the way, where does "Crow Hill" fit into the story?

sterlingguy

Check out http://www.dailyheights.com/archives/517 -- it tells the story of Crow Hill. You can also try Googling it or checking out Wikipedia.

My paper focused on the blocks currently known as Prospect Heights, which for many decades was considered a part of Crown Heights. That said, Crow Hill did pop up a few times in my reading. Very interesting.

sevenoneeighty

Here are some images of the old reservoir which is not Mount Prospect Park ( the second highest point in Brooklyn):

http://tinyurl.com/yolurt

http://tinyurl.com/2x9due

What is the appropriate BBCode or HTML code to make the images post??

sevenoneeighty

Also,
Check out this map showing the reservoir:

Was Lincoln Place (my street) Degraw Street, back in the day..?
Enlarge the map and see what I mean...Look North of Eastern Parkway...

http://tinyurl.com/yvednz

dh

hhhmmmm. That's interesting, because I have lived in PH since the 80s and as best I can remember it was called Prospect Heights the whole time I've been here.

carnivore

dh wrote: hhhmmmm. That's interesting, because I have lived in PH since the 80s and as best I can remember it was called Prospect Heights the whole time I've been here.

Well if he's using only documented references to the name, it's going to be really biased for that period. The reason why? Because the tabloids and local news during the 80s routinely referred to any crime in Brooklyn as occurring in either Crown Heights or Bed Stuy, even when it was nowhere near either of those neighborhoods. Since crime is the most of what those sources report on for local neighborhood news, it's not surprising that other small neighborhoods nearby escaped mention in the press during that time.

sterlingguy

That is a great point, Carnivore, and I think that is exactly what my research indicates -- the Times called everything around here Crown Heights when it was about crime and poverty and race issues.

But, that said, I talked to many folks (mostly long-time African-American and Caribbean-American residents over 55 with grandchildren) insist that this neighborhood was Crown Heights until about 2003.