Why is america still stuck on black and white mode?

armchair_warrior

why does everything turn into a black and white thing, when we talk about anything on race or minority issues.

For example. if we are talking about interracial dating. it always about black and white couples. yet biggest interracial couplings are asian and whites.

largest minority group is now hispanics. I wanna see some token hispanic guys on tv more often.

I don't know white america there is more then just black and white out there now!!!

god i'm bored i need to sleep more.

doctorj

That's a very good question. It seems extremely weird and intense if you didn't grow up with it. The future belongs to mongrels, yet the media and the national discourse looks like a small dollop of blackberry jelly on white bread.

What I think is: anywhere in the world where there has been extreme oppression of a minority (or other extreme race or tribe-related events such as genocide), when it officially ceases, it takes at least until all the people who were young then have grown old and died, before the anger and guilt dissipates. If you count forward from e.g. the voting rights act, we're looking at circa 2045 in this country.

Because various kinds of Hispanics, East Asians, South Asians, etc. have historically neither been the dominant opressors nor predominating opressees in this country, they are not party to this weird, awkward transition period. As things loosen up and even out in the coming decades, assuming society stays on course, more and more people will cease to notice much less care which continent your ancestors came from, and the black-and-white dichotomy will recede and discourse and the media will become more genuinely representative by default.

That's my 2c.

bigguy

I generally agree with the need for generations to die before real change can come along. There are some things that can get in the way however, such as institutions and paradigms that persist generation after generation. The confederate flag is a good symbol of that kind of thing. People can stay locked into the same view for a long long time.

As an aside, I wonder how increase in longevity will impact social structures and rate of progress. If and when the old bastards are living for hundreds of years, it might be tougher to enact real change. Imagine Strom Thurmond living to 150. Of course, the thought of Einstein living to that same age softens the blow a bit...

sevenoneeighty

DoctorJ,

That is a very good concise assessment and it rings true.
As the world becomes 'smaller' and more intermixed, the arguments of the last centuries regarding race will slowly become less and less relevant. Some People seem to be stuck on "grandparents mode" (thinking as their grandparents did) when the world is certainly becoming more complex.

The issue and social construct of "race" itself is going to have to be re-examined as the world changes. We have to stop letting media outlets define who or what we are and resist the oversimplification and sound byte culture that is feeding this thinking.

Race is not simply about black or white as Armchair puts it, and the true discussions about the complexity of relationships are not happening in major media outlets. Most people are already "mixed" with something anyway so the argument is already flawed. And also, color or shade of skin is not a "race"as defined either but it seems like we always come back to that anyway. The whole thing is becoming more and more irrelevant as time goes on.

With respect to the new generations of human beings and "race", I think Brooklyn specifically represents a small, concentrated sample of what is happening globally.

Armchair and others, this is a great podcast and blog to check out on this topic and others:
http://www.addictedtorace.com/

doctorj

BigGuy wrote:
As an aside, I wonder how increase in longevity will impact social structures and rate of progress. If and when the old bastards are living for hundreds of years, it might be tougher to enact real change. Imagine Strom Thurmond living to 150. Of course, the thought of Einstein living to that same age softens the blow a bit...

I've often thought about that. One consequence is that the older people get, the more resistant they are to change, which is the definition of conservatism. We have generally seen a shift towards more conservative politics in countries with an ageing population in recent years, that could well continue. What defines conservatism also changes with time, so in 20 years, conservatives may be trying to preserve the golden age of the 1970s instead of the golden age of the 1950s. So this can cause the rate of political change and social adaptation to slow, which is probably not a good thing when the world is changing rapidly.

I agree with you about persistent social structures that can preserve ethnic tension or inequality after hostilities or oppresion have officially ceased. Religion+tribe is a classsic culprit. The overall pace of economic and social mobility is also important. That's why I think 'at least' 3 generations, once a reasonable approximation to equality under the law and equality of opportunity is established.

livetotravel

Black & White? More like Brown, Beige, Tan, Yellow, Red, Black & White

New York City: Population 8 million—non-Hispanic white-35%, Hispanic-27%, black/African American-24.5%, Asian-9.7%, mixed race-2.8%

For the math challenged, that's 35% white folks and 65% non-white folks.

And that's why I choose to live here.

urjustadaylate

Subject: Unproked

Ikjkjk

quijibo

the anger and guilt is particularly evident on NPR's show schedule.

there are several prime time shows targeted for a black audience and none for its hispanic audience -- even tho' the hispanic population is now larger...

zura04

There are SOME shows containing Hispanic leads or themes....but not many.

doctorj

quijibo wrote: the anger and guilt is particularly evident on NPR's show schedule.

there are several prime time shows targeted for a black audience and none for its hispanic audience -- even tho' the hispanic population is now larger...

True. The thing is though, that as a native English speaker I can understand and enjoy an NPR show that's broadcast in Ebonics. I wouldn't listen to a hispanic-oriented show in Spanish, since unfortunately I barely know a word, and I wonder how much of the hispanic community would listen to the show if it were broadcast in English.

quijibo

doctorj wrote: [quote=quijibo]the anger and guilt is particularly evident on NPR's show schedule.

there are several prime time shows targeted for a black audience and none for its hispanic audience -- even tho' the hispanic population is now larger...

True. The thing is though, that as a native English speaker I can understand and enjoy an NPR show that's broadcast in Ebonics. I wouldn't listen to a hispanic-oriented show in Spanish, since unfortunately I barely know a word, and I wonder how much of the hispanic community would listen to the show if it were broadcast in English.
don't get me wrong. i'm not complaining about the lack of hispanic themed shows

while shows like "Tavis Smiley" and "Farai Chideya's News and Notes" gives a voice to it's african american audience -- i feel in the long term it hurts that same community as it fosters an alienated voice outside the mainstream.... the ebonics that you mention... hindering assimilation into the melting pot

quijibo

Flexichick wrote: There are SOME shows containing Hispanic leads or themes....but not many.

oh yes. i know of one show. it's broadcast every sunday morning @ 6:30 a.m.

homeowner

quijibo wrote: [quote=doctorj][quote=quijibo]the anger and guilt is particularly evident on NPR's show schedule.

there are several prime time shows targeted for a black audience and none for its hispanic audience -- even tho' the hispanic population is now larger...

True. The thing is though, that as a native English speaker I can understand and enjoy an NPR show that's broadcast in Ebonics. I wouldn't listen to a hispanic-oriented show in Spanish, since unfortunately I barely know a word, and I wonder how much of the hispanic community would listen to the show if it were broadcast in English.
don't get me wrong. i'm not complaining about the lack of hispanic themed shows

while shows like "Tavis Smiley" and "Farai Chideya's News and Notes" gives a voice to it's african american audience -- i feel in the long term it hurts that same community as it fosters an alienated voice outside the mainstream.... the ebonics that you mention... hindering assimilation into the melting pot

Okay, I'll admit to some ignorance on this point, because I don't listen to NPR, but are any of these shows broadcast in ebonics? And if not, how are they examples of fostering an alienated voice outside the mainstream? It seems to me that as traditional "black" culture continues to be marketed to the mainstream, the presence of a Tavis Smiley would serve to help assimilation, not hurt it.

doctorj

quijibo wrote:
while shows like "Tavis Smiley" and "Farai Chideya's News and Notes" gives a voice to it's african american audience -- i feel in the long term it hurts that same community as it fosters an alienated voice outside the mainstream.... the ebonics that you mention... hindering assimilation into the melting pot

Maybe. On the other hand, they may give valuable insights and viewpoints rarely expressed in the mainstream media. And there's no end of debate about whether "assimilation" is a desirable endpoint, as opposed to peaceful coexistence of equally empowered subcultures. I've lived in a society where the official politics was strongly assimilationist into a monocultural majority, and I didn't like it as much as I do here. I like to listen to these shows sometimes because as an outsider and recent arrival, it gives me a window on the concerns and realities of people living alongside of me who have by and large been dealt a very different set of cards. Like I watch CSPAN sometimes too, to try to understand how politics works and what the mindset in Washington is. Maybe if everyone listened a little more to each other, there'd be fewer alienated and shrill voices.

Plus, I think it's the main target audience that has first right to pass judgement upon whether those shows are helpful or not.

Ebonics is cool. I reckon it's a genuine dialect, like Scots, and about as hard for a non-native English speaker to pick up. No one would expect the Scots to actively change their grammar and vocabulary to match some kind of hypothetical standard American or British English.

raw

Subject: Re: Why is america still stuck on black and white mode?

armchair_warrior wrote: why does everything turn into a black and white thing, when we talk about anything on race or minority issues.

For example. if we are talking about interracial dating. it always about black and white couples. yet biggest interracial couplings are asian and whites.

largest minority group is now hispanics. I wanna see some token hispanic guys on tv more often.

I don't know white america there is more then just black and white out there now!!!

god i'm bored i need to sleep more.

I hear you! And who the heck here is %100 "black" or %100 "white" anyways? A tourist from a genetically homogenous population in Iceland?

oiseau

Ebonics is basically bad English.

If you think it's anything else, you are mistaken.

He be workin' = He is working [right now].

He be steady workin' = He is always working.

He been had that job = He has had that job for a long time and still has it.

Give me a break.

doctorj

Oiseau wrote: Ebonics is basically bad English. If you think it's anything else, you are mistaken.

Only judged by some American textbook standard that doesn't correspond to the broad variation in how people actually speak English around the world. If you think Ebonics is bad, then let me tell you I hear the most attrocious things from the mouths of standard American English speakers too, according to the grammar I was taught. In fact, sometimes it's so bad that I have to re-correct manuscripts where the grammar has been changed by some ignorant American proof reader and the intended meaning destroyed.

Now if by 'bad' you mean 'less prestigious' that's a whole different story.

Oiseau wrote:

He be workin' = He is working [right now].

He be steady workin' = He is always working.

He been had that job = He has had that job for a long time and still has it.

Give me a break.

These be legitimate constructions, I'll warrant, which follow their own rules (just not my rules). Be I right, you'll find very similar examples of infinitives getting a modal workout in Shakespeare's English.

And by the way, did you know that English is itself a creole? That's how we lost most of our inflections and multiplied our vocabulary. There's nothing new about simplifying verb forms; that's the track we've been on for a millenium.

The wikipedia page on African American Vernacular English is a good introduction to the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

bigguy

Please tell me that's not a hoe with a nappy.

doctorj

BigGuy wrote: Please tell me that's not a hoe with a nappy.

On its head, no less.

oiseau

doctorj wrote:
Only judged by some American textbook standard that doesn't correspond to the broad variation in how people actually speak English around the world. If you think Ebonics is bad, then let me tell you I hear the most attrocious things from the mouths of standard American English speakers too, according to the grammar I was taught. In fact, sometimes it's so bad that I have to re-correct manuscripts where the grammar has been changed by some ignorant American proof reader and the intended meaning destroyed.

Now if by 'bad' you mean 'less prestigious' that's a whole different story.

Just because a person has learned incorrect English from a person who has learned incorrect English does not make it right.

Oiseau wrote:

He be workin' = He is working [right now].

He be steady workin' = He is always working.

He been had that job = He has had that job for a long time and still has it.

Give me a break.

doctorj wrote: These be legitimate constructions, I'll warrant, which follow their own rules (just not my rules). Be I right, you'll find very similar examples of infinitives getting a modal workout in Shakespeare's English.

And by the way, did you know that English is itself a creole? That's how we lost most of our inflections and multiplied our vocabulary. There's nothing new about simplifying verb forms; that's the track we've been on for a millenium.

The wikipedia page on African American Vernacular English is a good introduction to the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

So fuggin' what?

Did you know all language goes back to when humans could only grunt?

English is what it is because it's been refined for centuries. Now just because some people can not speak English correctly does not make a new language. What I be tellin' you is da trut.

bigguy

English is what it is because it's been refined for centuries

English is what it is because it's been corrupted for centuries. A lot of meanings we use regularly today would make grammarians from the past shudder. Even simple word meanings have been completely altered. "Nice" used to mean "fine" as in fine threading - small and difficult. Now it means ... nice. And try to explain to the Angles and the Saxons what we did to their wonderful language (with a little help from the Normans).

The important thing is to be able to speak correctly when needed. And there are a lot of folks who can't do that - remedial English would help their lives and careers. But don't worry about English itself - you won't be able to understand it in 500 years anyway.

doctorj

Oiseau wrote:
[quote=doctorj]
Now if by 'bad' you mean 'less prestigious' that's a whole different story.

Just because a person has learned incorrect English from a person who has learned incorrect English does not make it right.


It makes it different. If it's just one family, then it's called an ecolect. Unlikely to be very useful, especially if others have trouble understanding it, and thus very likely to die out. If it's tens to hundreds of thousands, or millions of people, and persists geographically or within an ethnic group, it's called a dialect or ethnolect. Many languages have dialects that persist for centuries. My wife is bidialectical in her native language, just like many AAVE speakers are bidialectical (e.g. speak one way to whites, another way to blacks). On her home island of 50,000 people (and in her sleep) she speaks in a very different way from how she speaks in the city, so much so that native speakers from the city, and myself, have trouble understanding it. Her parents speak almost 100% dialect, unless making a special effort to communicate with someone from outside the island. It has different vocabulary and grammar and pronunciation from the 'standard' language, just like AAVE does with respect to English, but it's the same nation and much too close to be a different language. No one calls it 'bad' or 'wrong', because those 50,000 were always citizens, not an underclass or slaves.

So, if AAVE has all the linguistic characteristics of a dialect, and you want to call it 'bad' and 'wrong', I have to ask: is this not simply prejudice and a symptom of inequality?

doctorj wrote: These be legitimate constructions, I'll warrant, which follow their own rules (just not my rules). Be I right, you'll find very similar examples of infinitives getting a modal workout in Shakespeare's English.

And by the way, did you know that English is itself a creole? That's how we lost most of our inflections and multiplied our vocabulary. There's nothing new about simplifying verb forms; that's the track we've been on for a millenium.

The wikipedia page on African American Vernacular English is a good introduction to the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

Oiseau wrote: So fuggin' what?

Well the point is simple: when two languages collide, because of some historical event that causes two previously remote groups of people to live together, such as the Norman conquest of England, or the slave trade to the Americas, you typically get a dialect or a creole among the second generation, which is different from both parent languages. English was already fully bastardized compared with most Indoeuropean languages (e.g. Italian, German, Russian, Greek, Persian) long before AAVE arose.

Oiseau wrote:
English is what it is because it's been refined for centuries. Now just because some people can not speak English correctly does not make a new language. What I be tellin' you is da trut.

So tell me: what's correct English, and where can I find someone who speaks it? Because something that's normal and correct in Newfoundland might be unintelligible in New Zealand, and something that sounds correct to a New Yorker could sound totally wrong to a Scot. Try going to one of these places and telling the locals that their English is wrong, and see how far you get. My native English may be tricky for white Americans, and difficult for an AAVE speaker to understand and vice versa. Last time I checked, there was no book, committee, or king of the world, with the authority to impose 'correct' English on all speakers. That kind of centralized authority used to exist, but I heard Americans fought a war in order not to have to submit to it.

oiseau

Yeah, but I don't call my incorrect English a language.

doctorj

Oiseau wrote: Yeah, but I don't call my incorrect English a language.

I don't call AAVE (African American Vernacular English) a language, I call it a dialect (or a family of dialects, since it's not homogeneous). People who speak it believe (correctly) that the language they're speaking is called English.

Here's an anecdote of why it's a dialect: my English is not American, but it's closer to 'standard' American than to AAVE. I work in an office sometimes with a variety of black and white Brooklynites. It's rare when speaking to the whites that I have to get them to repeat something or that they have to get me to repeat something. But plenty of times I've heard the blacks giggle and say 'what'd he say? I can't understand a word he said' and I also have to concentrate more to understand them. Whose English is wrong in this situation, theirs or mine?

alafairnadia

wait. oiseau, have you taken a linguistics class? dialects and languages have construction and grammatical standards that are followed, no matter how 'flawed' they are based on their source dialect or language. the french object to the current slang of their language - it is based on a blend of arabic and french. but it, like ebonics, follows a structure and grammatical structure that makes it a dialect, which is a valid linguistic standard.
there are radio stations in miami that broadcast entirely in spanglish. I love listening to them. they make me feel truly at peace with my languages and ethnicity. being a cuban hillbilly can be a tough thing, you know.
and I'm with quijibo and armchair - I do want more shows with hispanic and asian characters that aren't token or obvious caricatures. it's fucking boring to watch the same 10 white people behave like fools.