Congestion Pricing

the drunken guest

You won't get nailed with the charge is you stay on the West side highway or on the FDR... you get nailed when you turn off. Apparently it is going to be like an EZ system... they say that 70% of people have EZ pass (which I highly doubt)...

Now the scarry part -- they are going to have cameras everywhere (every street off the FDR and WSD) taking pictures of licences plates for billing purposes... NOW, if you think that data is only going to be used for billing purposes you are out of your mind...

Did you know that Pizza Hut and Domino's hut sells their database of phone #'s and addresses on the open market twice a year? It is perfectly legal and highly profitable for them...

armchair_warrior

I am all for it. I make a living driving.

This would make some of the single drivers hopefully buy motorcycles and scooters or take trains.

Alot of people drive alone in cars.

doctorj

homeowner wrote:
[quote=doctorj]I'm talking of course about European-style cycle lanes with curbs, on every avenue and every fifth cross street.

I've got to admit, I don't get the logic behind bike lanes. In NYC using a bike as a daily mode of transportation is only really possible for six months out of the year. The rest of the time it is either too cold, or wet for you to really be able to do it. For people like myself who have to show up in business attire, riding a bike from Brooklyn into Manhattan in a suit in the rain just seems crazy.

It only seems crazy to you because you probably haven't experienced a city in action where it's been implemented, and about a quarter of the population use it as their primary means of transport year round. Most such cities have worse weather than New York. Stockholm, Amsterdam, Zurich, Copenhagen. The roads are clearer, the public transport comformtable, and the bike lanes full. The short answer to the business attire is that workplaces will provide the necessary changing facilities when it becomes normal for many of their employees, and/or adjust their dress code a little. And finally, for those that hate the thought of a bicycle, speed limited moped, electric scooter, rollarblade, personal vehicle for the movement impaired, and love driving and parking, or being crammed into public transport: how much nicer would it be for you if you could get a quarter of the people off both at very little cost to the city?

homeowner wrote:
I'm always amazed by how little bike lanes get used here in Brooklyn. There are blocks that I drive along where I never see anyone in the bike lanes, ever.

Obviously. What you are seeing is not a real bike lane. They're dangerous, potholed, exposed to traffic, obstructed by parked cars, and they're not on every single street where there's more than one lane. They do not have their own curb or separate traffic signals. Thus they're next to useless, and therefore at about 2% of capacity. Consider getting from Chinatown to Downtown Brooklyn: fastest way is via the bike path on the Manhattan bridge (I've measured it) and it could easily take 50 times as many people as it currently does and more than a car lane or rail track. But people don't use it because to get to and from it from your exact starting point to your exact destination, you do not have separated protected lanes when not on the bridge.

Bike lanes at capacity can move more people per square foot per second than car lanes, especially ones filled with parked cars. So if the system is built properly, every bike lane increases the ability of the road to transport people. But only when built properly so that a large fraction of the population will use it. And use it people will, as the cities that have done it attest.

limestonekid

Well I'm glad this topic is promoting some discussion. The amount of traffic on the streets is definitely an issue that the City, State and Federal governments need to look at.

I'm sure someone can quote more accurate figures but on my walk to work I'm willing to bet that more than 80% of the vehicles on the road are driver-only occupied.

You can't convince me that ALL of those driver-only occupied vehicles absolutely, poisitvely have to drive their car to work because public transportation is inaccesible to them.

Until such time as you provide disincentives to people to stop them from driving and provide incentives to get people onto public transportation the streets will continue to be clogged.

Obviously the $3+ per gallon is not having much of an effect on people's driving habits. Would $5/gallon? Hopefully.

My one fear about the $8 congestion pricing fee is that it's NOT much of a disincentive to driving. People will still pay it.

The $21 fee for trucks seems excessive when one considers that one of the reasons they want to reduce traffic on the roads is so the delivery of goods can be more efficient. Forcing the trucks to pay an excessive fee seems to be counter-productive as those fees will simply get passed along to the consumer and there hasn't been a proposal for how to move the goods more effectively. Just people.

I think until such time as companies stop reimbursing employees for parking then the traffic on the roads will continue to increase. The toughest job for Mayor Bloomberg will be convincing companies (and legislators) that the congestion pricing is in their best long-term interest. Right now I don't think too many of them see it that way.

jamrock

I own a car and I am for it. I take the train between 6 am and 6 pm during the week so it does not affect me. I think it is a good idea. Traffic is out of hand during the day.

erikka

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070429/7gridlock.htm
Wooo, forth worst commute in the country--go King's County!

Just found Anthony Weiner's report--same numbers but we're listed at #2 http://www.house.gov/weiner/report031008.htm

anonymous

I commute from Long Island to NYC by motorcycle most of the year (yes, can be chilly, but electric heated garments really work well these days). I hope the charge for motorcycles will be waived. Still can't find many garages that will let me park, though, and the potholes are murder.

I think the reason they can't offer a break to carpoolers is that there's no easy/reliable way of monitoring this.

sweet tea

if the charge is per vehicle, then there is already a break for carpooling -- cost can be split among people in the car, so a car with 4 people is 1/4 the cost (per person) of a car with only a driver. natural incentive with no need for city regulation.

armchair_warrior

they should charge out of city/borough cars more. alot of people i know use upstate and out of state plates to avoid paying nyc insurances prices.

second they should charge driving to busy parts more than other parts of all the boroughs.

third motorcycles and scooters shouldn't get charge a price at all.

limestonekid

Well it looks like our elected officials dropped the ball on this one. Lost a chance at $500 million to improve the quality of life for residents and workers in NYC as well as make commerce more efficient.

How does Sheldon Silver do anything with his head buried so far up his a$$?

guvna

Dont look at this in a vacuum. With Atlantic yards on the horizon, and congestion pricing (eventually), can you imagine what FG/CH will look like? We'll have so many people from other neighborhoods parking here to take the train or see games that residents will have nowhere to park. We would need resident parking permits to force the congestion pricing park-n-riders to leave their cars in their own neighborhoods. We would never get resident parking permits from the City unless we leverage it against congestion parking.

Anyone else see what I'm getting at?

guvna

raulism wrote: This is probably a great idea for Manhattan, but I still think the devil's in the details. And one of those details is our neighborhood. How many people will drive from other parts of Brooklyn and then park near us and then hop on the subway? Has this been studied? The more I see of City planning in action, the more I distrust it.

Just saw this. You certainly hit upon my concern there. All neighborhoods near manhattan with rail links should be concerned.

daver

Congestion pricing isn't a magical wand, and concerns about parking in neighboring areas are real and will need to be addressed. This is a big idea, and a big plan. I happen to be in favor of it, in general. There will need to be much tweaking and adjusting though, pretty much constantly, in order to ensure the plan meets its goals. Which also, incidentally, means that there needs to be concrete goals that can be measured against _before_ putting any plan in place. Exactly what are we trying to accomplish? How will we measure that are efforts are valuable? How will we tell if we succeed? Fail?

I can't imagine that some sort of resident parking permit for areas in Queens and Brooklyn (and possible the Bronx) will be optional.

boygabriel

Guvna wrote: [quote=raulism]This is probably a great idea for Manhattan, but I still think the devil's in the details. And one of those details is our neighborhood. How many people will drive from other parts of Brooklyn and then park near us and then hop on the subway? Has this been studied? The more I see of City planning in action, the more I distrust it.

Just saw this. You certainly hit upon my concern there. All neighborhoods near manhattan with rail links should be concerned.

This is a big issue for sure, but I certainly think the city can deal with it. And the benefits in revenue, traffic and health certainly make it worth dealing with.

guvna

Boygabriel wrote: [quote=Guvna][quote=raulism]This is probably a great idea for Manhattan, but I still think the devil's in the details. And one of those details is our neighborhood. How many people will drive from other parts of Brooklyn and then park near us and then hop on the subway? Has this been studied? The more I see of City planning in action, the more I distrust it.

Just saw this. You certainly hit upon my concern there. All neighborhoods near manhattan with rail links should be concerned.

This is a big issue for sure, but I certainly think the city can deal with it. And the benefits in revenue, traffic and health certainly make it worth dealing with.

I agree. I go further to suggest that although we agree in principle with congestion pricing, we in FG/CH should not do so without first geting city permission for us to have resident parking permits. Without that sort of leveraging, I seriously doubt the city would give it to us later.

rebmarel

if this is really going to go through, mass transit, bike lanes etc must be in place BEFORE this happens--- many of the train lines are running at there maximum capacity ALREADY! i think there are too many questions about what might happen, and that not enough has been set into place to make congestion pricing valid now--- which isnt to say that it wont happen in the future. the issue of the cameras is also frightening... i know there are many all around the city, especially for traffic issues (like running red lights etc) but, it's crazy to think how many more there will be if this gets put into place...

jamzer

The city can do so much to reduce congestion without instituting congestion pricing. It can narrow or close roads, reduce street parking, close parks to vehicles, add tolls to the East River bridges. I am a supporter of congestion pricing, but I wonder why the city does not do some of these other things too.

rebmarel - you are right about the need to improve mass transit, but it is a chicken and egg thing. It costs A LOT OF MONEY to improve mass transit. The congestion pricing plan would dedicate its revenues to improving mass transity. That will be a very good thing for the city.

crownheightsproud

What about the people who will be really hit up hard by this? I mean the small business people - sole proprieters like building tradespeople, delivery services, or even people from the ends of Queens, Bklyn and the Bronx with lousy subway connections? Many of these people can't afford congestion pricing. Bloomberg et al go on the assumption that it's no big deal to shell out $8, because he hasn't bought anything that was $8 since he was a teenager. But for many, it is a lot of money, especially day after day. They will not easily be able to pass it along to customers, their profit margin is small enough as it is.

How are they implementing this? An EZ pass kind of system? That assumes something else - that everyone who drives into this city has a charge card or a bank account. Lots of lower income people, do not. People coming into the city from out of town may not have EZ Pass either. Are they going to have toll booths? Where? Will they have to grab property through eminent domain to build toll booths? Where will they be?

The whole thing is not thought out, which is typical. Urban planning should be planned, not reactive after the fact. The mass transit alternatives, parking lots, etc should be built and implemented before the first car is charged a toll.

There also needs to be a serious look at how all of these cars which will be parking all over, so commuters can get on the trains, are going to impact the environment, especially in our communities where childhood asthma levels are already too high. Harlem, South Bronx, Bushwick, Gowanus, anywhere where suburbanites and outer borough people are going to be mobbing to park.

If we are going to do this, it should be done right, fairly and with some common sense.

new2hood

Subject: me too!

I'm for it. /

armchair_warrior

I'm for it and i make a living delivery stuff. hmm once it starts. i have to pass it off to my customers.

few bucks more i don't think they would mind.

anonymous

Subject: congestion pricing

as a lifelong native of brooklytn and not some yuppie(excuse me hipster) who moved here four years ago this is just another tax on the middle class there will be more polution and more cars in the boroughs when everyone parks and then rides the train in from bk bx and queens but then we are told we will get parking permits yea rite another tax on us does anyone remember the great otb and lotto scams which were supposed to save our schools coincidently another lame duck politico switched the revenues from only for education to the general fund. this is just another elitist idea from the mayor who knows as muych about lliving in middle class ny as he does about 86 year old men digging there cars out in after a snow storm(o yea they all wanted to sleep in that day) a novel idea lets put it to a vote nah the elitist know better

j.b.

The newspapers have covered the point that it's not based on the EZPass system.

If it were no big deal to pay $8, it'd hardly be serving its purpose. The whole point is that people won't be able to take it for granted.

Looking at it in the form of a toll is a mistake, and perhaps contributes to why you feel it hasn't been thought out.

daver

Congestion pricing is not elitist. Middle class folks are NOT going to be paying it, unless you are stretching the definition quite a bit. Middle and lower class NY'ers already take mass transit. Who can afford the bridge/tunnel tolls and parking day after day? Not po folk, that is for sure. An uncle drives in from Staten Island every day, $6 through the tunnel, $6 over the NJ bridge, $400/month for downtown parking. $12/day * 20 days per month = $240/month + the $400 = $640/month. Or he could get anywhere over the buses, ferry, and subway for $76/month, unlimited metro. Which way do the po folk swing on this issue? The thing is, though, he isn't worried about congestion pricing anyway, because they will take the tolls off it and it is only going to cost him an extra $2/day, or $40/month, which isn't much on top of the $640/month he is already paying.

This doesn't mean that billionaire Bloomberg and his retarded alternate side snow storm rules aren't retarded, just that if you are driving into Manhattan daily, you probably aren't just a regular working stiff or something, you ARE elite and deserve to pay for that privilege. I haven't talked about commercial because that is a totally different can of worms, some of those folks have real issues here. But not "middle class ny" suit and tie guy driving in to work in the city every day, fuck him, let him pay a little extra and help the true middle (and lower) class with his money going to increase mass transit service.

homeowner

My question is will taxis be charged the $8. Because the bulk of manhattan congestion is cabs. I remember when all the yellow cabs went on strike a few years ago. There was no traffic in the city for those two or three days. And that was after the mayor lifted the limitations to allow livery cabs to make street pickups in Manhattan. None.

doctorj

homeowner wrote: My question is will taxis be charged the $8. Because the bulk of manhattan congestion is cabs. I remember when all the yellow cabs went on strike a few years ago. There was no traffic in the city for those two or three days. And that was after the mayor lifted the limitations to allow livery cabs to make street pickups in Manhattan. None.

As someone in and among the traffic most days, I think you'd see a similar radical decrease if you took out all the busses and AccessARides, or all the commercial vans, or all the SUVs and private transport. You don't need to cut the number of motor vehicles by much before everyone moves more freely. There's a lot of taxis to be sure, but they're a relatively efficient use of resources and space as far as vehicles go, they're mostly in use and rarely parked (on street parking is the real crime). I would hope they also get charged and pass the cost onto customers, like everyone else.

I fear though that the entire measure is moribund and we won't see action in the near future.

anonymous

In my opinion, congestion pricing could be implemented fairly and in a way that defuses much of the criticism directed against it. As it stands, I believe the proposal does place an unfair burden on those who live in the outer reaches of the borough, far from the mass transit options that others take for granted. So, my suggestion would be to provide people with a permit that allows them to continue driving into the congested areas free of charge so long as they live x number of miles from the nearest subway station, or in certain areas, or however you want to work out the details. Everyone else has to pay.

daver

Anonymous wrote: In my opinion, congestion pricing could be implemented fairly and in a way that defuses much of the criticism directed against it. As it stands, I believe the proposal does place an unfair burden on those who live in the outer reaches of the borough, far from the mass transit options that others take for granted. So, my suggestion would be to provide people with a permit that allows them to continue driving into the congested areas free of charge so long as they live x number of miles from the nearest subway station, or in certain areas, or however you want to work out the details. Everyone else has to pay.

More Park & Ride lots.

daver

doctorj wrote: As someone in and among the traffic most days, I think you'd see a similar radical decrease if you took out all the busses and AccessARides, or all the commercial vans, or all the SUVs and private transport.

You'd also see a radical decrease if everyone quit their jobs and just stayed home. Some solutions are realistic, some aren't.

livetotravel

I'm for it big time - and hope they actually price it higher then the cost of the suburban buses in the north Bronx - make it hurt!

My friends who live in the far reaches of Brooklyn where they are seriously under-served by mass transportation either drive their cars to nearby subway locations or take the "dollar" vans to them - they do not drive into Manhattan.

The real problem is that there are way too many high earners who's parking in Manhattan is subsidized by their employers - this group will be hard to impact.

armchair_warrior

Livetotravel wrote: I'm for it big time - and hope they actually price it higher then the cost of the suburban buses in the north Bronx - make it hurt!

My friends who live in the far reaches of Brooklyn where they are seriously under-served by mass transportation either drive their cars to nearby subway locations or take the "dollar" vans to them - they do not drive into Manhattan.

The real problem is that there are way too many high earners who's parking in Manhattan is subsidized by their employers - this group will be hard to impact.

how bout taxing the guys who drive suv's and Luxury cars more. and also single riders more. instead of the car pool guys etc...