Congestion Pricing

queencallipygos

j.b. wrote: that's a good point - I find the MTA service advisory page useless. They always seem to be 8 hours behind on actual events. (If you could even get to the service advisory page yesterday. What a joke of a set up.)

well, I'm inclined to cut the MTA some slack for the site crashing, because they probably had what, a 500% increase in the number of people trying to access it at once? I've even seen Google crash from an upswing in traffic that big.

the fact that it didn't have accurate information on it when you finally got to it, now, that's something else again.

daver

queencallipygos wrote: well, I'm inclined to cut the MTA some slack for the site crashing, because they probably had what, a 500% increase in the number of people trying to access it at once?

I'm willing to cut them slack on it once. Not every time there is a major disruption. At some point they need to step up and upgrade and plan a little better for these things. "Oh, we weren't ready" is not an acceptable excuse time after time.

queencallipygos wrote: the fact that it didn't have accurate information on it when you finally got to it, now, that's something else again.

Exactly. And why is there no mechanism for spreading info out to employees driving the buses and manning the booths, which would then get the info into the hands of the poor folks waiting on the platforms, standing on the streets, and walking back and forth between stations? Someone down there needs to get some heads together and make a plan. There isn't anything here that is not totally doable. Yes, there will be disruptions and problems. The weather yesterday was pretty damn severe. The problem lies in the response, and proper communication of the same.

daver

Nice article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/09/nyregion/09commute.html

After a heavy rainstorm crippled the subway system in September 2004, an investigation laid the blame on New York City Transit, saying that the agency had neglected basic maintenance of its drainage system, and that once the tunnels started to fill with water, the response was haphazard and ineffective.

The agency promised major changes.

But yesterday, the subway was paralyzed again, when a strikingly similar storm dropped 1.7 inches of rain on Central Park between 6 a.m. and 7 a.m., just before the morning rush. <snip>

Yesterday’s disruptions were accompanied by complaints from many riders that it was difficult to get information from the transit agency. That applied to employees in trains and stations, who often had little or nothing to tell riders, and to the transportation authority’s Web site, mta.info, which was difficult to reach during much of the morning.

The Web site also broke down during a power failure in June that disrupted the evening rush. Jeremy Soffin, a spokesman for the transportation authority, said that after that crash, it upgraded some computer equipment, but that problems were then encountered with the new equipment.

As a result, he said, when a rush of users tried to use the Web site yesterday morning, only some could get through. He said the authority was working to fix the problem.

markroth8

LimestoneKid wrote: ... "Yeah, well do you remember the storm on August 8th when the whole system got flooded out?"

But that's the whole point! The money from congestion pricing will go to improve mass transit, which is nearing capacity.

dolcefiore

please wake up stop dream

dolcefiore

please wake up stop dreaming

daver

markroth8 wrote: But that's the whole point! The money from congestion pricing will go to improve mass transit, which is nearing capacity.

That is putting the cart before the horse. The system needs to be expanding BEFORE dumping a bunch more people into it. The system needs to be expanded regardless of congestion pricing, it just becomes more imperative with it.

homeowner

markroth8 wrote: But that's the whole point! The money from congestion pricing will go to improve mass transit, which is nearing capacity.

Also, just from a practical standpoint, how this is going to happen is very much up in the air. The MTA is a State Authority. They are a creature of State law and are financed at the State level. While the various localities (Upstate counties, NYC, LI and CT) kick in small amounts for the service in their particlar area, the bulk of their money comes from the state. Farebox (fees collected from riders) are not enough to support any of the MTAs transit systems (NYC bus, the Green line buses, commuter buses, LIRR, Metro North or the subways). The State subsidizes the entire system.

So the question becomes if NYC is collecting fees for congestion pricing, how exactly are they going to pay for subway upgrades? Are they planning on increasing the payment they make to the MTA? The City has historically fought against such increases so I'm not sure that they would simply agree to do so now. Especially when all the money is rolling in and could just go into the general fund. If they don't increase their payment to MTA will the State allocate additional funds for subway improvements over Metro North or LIRR improvements?

daver

I fucking love congestion pricing.

BUT! My transit cost using MTA just shot up well over $100 a year with the latest increase.

AND- The new Paterson budget includes a $60M CUT for the MTA. Granted, I believe it is an across the board versus a targeted cut, but still.

I'm starting to think about how great this will be if the congestion pricing passes. A bunch of new folks will get dumped into an already overtaxed transit system which will need another fare increase and is getting its budget currently cut further anyway. Chaos.

On the other hand, this may be the thing that finally gets me off my butt and into a car. I realize this is the exact opposite of the intention, but seriously. There is only so much I can stand. I can probably pop down through Staten Island and back up into NJ faster than can through the MTA in Manhattan if things continue in this direction.

carnivore

This just passed the City Council.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=79949

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/nyregion/01congestion.html?ref=nyregion

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/31/council-panel-approves-congestion-pricing-measure/

The plan is for the Port Authority to kick in $1 billion to cover New Jersey drivers (who won't pay the congestion fee, which is total bullshit). Plus it will qualify us for $354 million in federal grants.

caaahyoko

doctorj wrote: [quote=j.b.]It's a great idea, so long as the money goes towards specific mass-transit improvements...

Or better yet, spend it on the one and only improvement for city commuters that's
* cheapest to build
* cheapest to maintain
* cheapest to use
* healthiest for the commuter
* best for the environment
* requires least space
* most accessible to the disabled
* never goes on strike
* about as fast as cars and public transport for typical city trips up to about 10 miles
* barely exploited so far, rather than maxed out

I'm talking of course about European-style cycle lanes with curbs, on every avenue and every fifth cross street.

Yes, goddamn it. I just started biking to and from work, and all I can say is yes, yes, yes.

I am so happy this passed even if they don't add any more bike lanes--but I hope they do.

Edit: doctorj--here's a great little video that I ran across a while ago that first made me go "duh!" Like the guy in the video says, "You switch the location of the parked cars and the bike lane so it would go--sidewalk, bike lane, parked cars."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONS2ptAR4mo

daver

I'm all for congestion pricing, but this plan seems pretty bullshit to me. Pretty much only people from Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn will have to pay it. And possibly Long Island. I'm not familiar enough with that area. If I choose to get a car and drive to work in NJ, I won't have to pay anymore than what I would pay today. Folks I know driving to work in Manhattan from Staten Island won't pay any more. People driving to work in Manhattan from NJ won't pay any more either. So what is the point? Nail the people in the boroughs? Fuck that, nail the people outside NYC too!

So. In a nutshell, I am for congestion pricing, but I hope this changes a bit to make it not so fucking retarded.

caaahyoko

I'm guessing that it will change over time as the kinks get worked out. I think the idea was just to get it started to get the federal funds, right?

Don't the people who drive from Staten Island have to go through Brooklyn to get to Manhattan by car? Unless they go through NJ, I guess...

daver

caaahyoko wrote: I'm guessing that it will change over time as the kinks get worked out. I think the idea was just to get it started to get the federal funds, right?

Don't the people who drive from Staten Island have to go through Brooklyn to get to Manhattan by car? Unless they go through NJ, I guess...

They have to go either through NJ and pay a toll (Holland, Lincoln, or GWB) or through Brooklyn and pay a toll (Verrezano, or back through NJ and then Outerbridge, Bayonne, or Goethals). Depending on the order they go through the toll they are already paying will get credited against the congestion charge or vice-versa, meaning that they will pay the same.

And "I'm guessing that it will change over time" scares me a little bit.

OK, a _lot_ bit.

I haven't seen anything that would imply that it is going to address the issues that I have seen raised in this thread.

pitu

Gowanus Lounge has lots of links and the particulars of the vote...

Gowanus Lounge wrote: Yesterday afternoon, the Mayor's congestion pricing plan passed the City Council by a vote of 30-20. The vote in the Brooklyn delegation was 9-7 against the plan.

Brooklyn City Council Members voting in favor were: Simcha Felder, Sara M. Gonzalez, Letitia James, Domenic M. Recchia, Kendall Stewart, Albert Vann and David Yassky.

Brooklyn Members voting against Congestion Pricing were: Diana Reyna, Charles Barron, Bill de Blasio, Erik Martin Dilan, Mathieu Eugene, Lewis A. Fidler, Vincent J. Gentile, Darlene Mealy and Michael C. Nelson.

armchair_warrior

from what i hear its flawed. it doesn't take in consideration of motorcycles and car pooling.

daver

armchair_warrior wrote: from what i hear its flawed. it doesn't take in consideration of motorcycles and car pooling.

Dude, that is the fucking tip of the iceberg as to the flaws with the plan in its current form.

Motorcycles don't get much of a break as far as tolls around here anyway as far as I've seen.

As as as as as as.

jamzer

daver wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]from what i hear its flawed. it doesn't take in consideration of motorcycles and car pooling.

Dude, that is the fucking tip of the iceberg as to the flaws with the plan in its current form.

Motorcycles don't get much of a break as far as tolls around here anyway as far as I've seen.

As as as as as as.

It takes into account car pooling. If one person drives in a car, they pay $8. If two people share a car, they pay $4, if 3 people.... wait, my math is not that good. @#$%$

daver

Jamzer wrote: It takes into account car pooling. If one person drives in a car, they pay $8. If two people share a car, they pay $4, if 3 people.... wait, my math is not that good. @#$%$

Lol. I'll fix your post:

It takes into account car pooling. If one person drives in a car from Brooklyn, Queens or Bronx, they pay $8. If two people share a car from Brooklyn, Queens or Bronx, they pay $4 each, if 3 people share a car from Brooklyn, Queens or Bronx, they pay, uh $2.75 each and throw a quarter in the fountain to make a wish for whirled peas. Mmm, good.

If any number of people drive in from Staten Island or NJ they pay the same as they are paying right now, as they get a credit against congestion pricing since it is only for people for Brooklyn, Queens or the Bronx.

wtgirl

Yes, the plan is flawed but it is a start. There are concessions and changes being made by the hour. And with the looming recession.....when will we EVER be getting that kind of cash from the Federal Gov't again?

So we can sit here and bitch or else do something. I am for Congestion pricing and plan to spend 20 minutes this morning calling members of the State Assembly urging them to vote FOR the bill and also letting them know what I see as the problems:

Our state assembly representative is:
James Brennan, 44th District: [email protected]
718-788-7221
518-455-5377

James Brennan supports congestion pricing but wants to introduce a bill with some changes.....one being the fact that New Jersey residents won't be paying the toll (how unfair is THAT?)

Speaker Sidney Sheldon does NOT support the congestion pricing bill.
Sidney Sheldon, Speaker, [email protected]
212-312-1420 518-455-3791

This is the assembly leadership page: http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?sh=lea

Does anyone have suggestions who of the leadership committee we should call and voice support of the bill?

daver

Yeah, I suppose I'm being negative. I'm sure that this $354M won't be diverted from transit like most other money has. Nor will the tolls, for once they will go to transit and not to subsidize other unrelated projects. </sarchasm>

And as far as where money like that could possibly come from? Well, the Port Authority apparently has $1B (3X what the feds are offering) to ensure that NJ drivers don't have to pay the congestion charge.

This thing needs some serious work. I can't see them putting it together in a reasonable form in the time frame they have left, but I wish them luck. And two (count 'em, TWO!) cookies.

bklynpetunia

daver wrote: If I choose to get a car and drive to work in NJ, I won't have to pay anymore than what I would pay today. So what is the point? Nail the people in the boroughs? Fuck that, nail the people outside NYC too!

That's what the $1 billion kicked in from Port Authority is meant to address, but Sheldon Silver apparently has the same problem with it you do - he wants the individual drivers to pay more rather than get it back through the entity collecting their bridge and tunnel tolls.

I don't quite understand why it's being done this way either, but I have a couple of totally blind guesses: because they are NJ commuters and the pricing plan fees/federal funding go solely for the MTA, not Port Authority, the NJ/NY crossings won't see the mass transit upgrades promised for the rest of us.
Or - is it too difficult to charge two different prices depending on what tolls have already been deducted from a particular car's EZ-Pass? I imagine that's not the reason, but like I said, these are blind guesses.

I see your point about carpooling, but wouldn't dividing an $8 fee among two or four people be a bit of incentive right there?

I don't think the plan is perfect either, but I'm so so so happy it passed this hurdle. There's so much to be gained for anyone who walks, bikes or takes mass transit on any regular basis.

And I will NOT forget how Bill DeBlasio voted! He wants to replace Marty Markowitz (who, by the way, almost derailed the new car-free Prospect Park hours last year), and there's no way I can support someone with a similarly regressive attitudes toward traffic and environmental issues.

longtimesloper

Well, thank you for the phone numbers WTGirl, I will be spending part of my morning calling and urging them NOT to pass the bill! My husband drives (independent contractor) for a local courier service and the congestion pricing will just be another financial burden on us.

I can't believe people think the money will truly benefit mass transit or help our city in any way that any of us will see-just another way for the city to make a buck off of the backs of the working class.

carnivore

LongTimeSloper wrote: ...just another way for the city to make a buck off of the backs of the working class.

Real "working class" people take the subway.

bklynpetunia

LongTimeSloper wrote: My husband drives (independent contractor) for a local courier service and the congestion pricing will just be another financial burden on us.
I can't believe people think the money will truly benefit mass transit or help our city in any way that any of us will see-just another way for the city to make a buck off of the backs of the working class.

Please don't trot out the "working class" argument. If you can afford the gas, insurance and upkeep of a car, plus have enough leisure time to be posting on a message board, you are no more or less working class than anyone else posting here.

I fully expect anyone who drives for business to pass the added cost along to his/her customers, same as the bagel guys on the corner charging more due to the high cost of flour.

Please try to consider the benefit to everyone along with any inconvenience to yourself.

And yes, I do believe that we will see a benefit from fewer cars and better mass transit options. Actually, I think it's a bit naive to believe the naysayers - do you know who's been funding those anti-pricing ads? Owners of parking garages, that's who.

longtimesloper

Carnivore wrote: [quote=LongTimeSloper]...just another way for the city to make a buck off of the backs of the working class.

Real "working class" people take the subway.


Wiseguy-real working class people drive small trucks also to make deliveries in and around the 5 boroughs to make a buck. Believe me-my husband and I are working class, this is how he makes his living and helps NY businesses make their living too..

And, if the city was truly worried about congestion and not just money, they could implement carpooling plans, etc. to cut down on traffic in Manhattan!

longtimesloper

bklynpetunia wrote: [quote=LongTimeSloper] My husband drives (independent contractor) for a local courier service and the congestion pricing will just be another financial burden on us.
I can't believe people think the money will truly benefit mass transit or help our city in any way that any of us will see-just another way for the city to make a buck off of the backs of the working class.

Please don't trot out the "working class" argument. If you can afford the gas, insurance and upkeep of a car, plus have enough leisure time to be posting on a message board, you are no more or less working class than anyone else posting here.

I fully expect anyone who drives for business to pass the added cost along to his/her customers, same as the bagel guys on the corner charging more due to the high cost of flour.

Please try to consider the benefit to everyone along with any inconvenience to yourself.

And yes, I do believe that we will see a benefit from fewer cars and better mass transit options. Actually, I think it's a bit naive to believe the naysayers - do you know who's been funding those anti-pricing ads? Owners of parking garages, that's who.


Really? Because I can afford a car and insurance means I am not working class (the car is literally 20 years old!)? What is working class to you anyway? I know this is the neighborhood of 100k-200k incomes, and hubby and are I nowhere near that range. he is a truck driver-that's not working class to you? I am sorry, it is hard to see the benefit to all when we are sinking into a hole here-as for passing the price along to customers-yes, customers love that-and no chance that they would quit the company he works for and go with a bigger outfit that can provide better prices right? I guess I am just nuts to be concerned for my husband's job.

Also, another aspect of passing along the cost to clients. If you pass along to the clients, then those clients pass the cost along to their clients and so on and so forth until all of our prices go up.

Maybe I am just jaded, but, if the goal was to see the benefit to less cars, than carpooling laws and such could do the same thing without taking more money from NY'ers

longtimesloper

And yes, I do believe that we will see a benefit from fewer cars and better mass transit options. Actually, I think it's a bit naive to believe the naysayers - do you know who's been funding those anti-pricing ads? Owners of parking garages, that's who.

I am sorry, I think that is a naive point of view. The MTA just had a fare hike and still say they can't improve what they said they would. I just don't see it happening, maybe I am the one who is naive but, whenever in all the years I have heard that this or that will help mass transit, I have never seen it come to fruition.

daver

LongTimeSloper wrote: Wiseguy-real working class people drive small trucks also to make deliveries in and around the 5 boroughs to make a buck. Believe me-my husband and I are working class, this is how he makes his living and helps NY businesses make their living too..

Not getting in the middle of the argument, but as an FYI if your husband is driving deliveries into Staten Island he is already paying a daily toll, there is no other way onto it. Therefore the current congestion plan isn't going to cost you anything, the congestion charge will be credited against your same day bridge toll into SI.

So yay you.

bklynpetunia

What I said was that you are no more or less working class than anyone else on this board, and there's a distinction there. What I object to is, when you start using phrases like "working class", there is an unspoken insinuation that those of us who support congestion pricing must be better off financially, when in fact owning a car is out of the financial reach of many. Lew Fidler has been making a similar argument, which reminds me of the way bar owners all claimed they'd be put out of business when the smoking ban was enacted.

Also, by saying that I expect costs to passed on, I am saying that those of us without cars will probably be "charged" a little in that way as well. The cost-benefit in terms of better air quality/traffic safety still has everyone coming out ahead.

And re- the MTA's budget woes, you are forgetting that fact that Giuliani and Pataki had been slashing the MTA's budget for years, causing the current deficit. I don't want to defend the MTA, but I see who is fighting against congestion pricing, and who is fighting for it, and the ones against it have less than transparent motives. In this case, I don't think being optimistic about change is the same as being naive.