GUEST POSTERS: Last Chance to Make Your Case

dailyheights

"Guest" posters: We are leaning strongly toward closing the comments to people who haven't registered a username. If you think that's a bad idea, please make your case as to why we should continue to allow anonymous comments.

Some of you "guests" are pretty prolific. I know of at least two of you (at least) that have posted more than 70 times each (and climbing). So what's your argument?

t-fal

buuuurn them anyway!

dailyheights

I'm aware that a lot of people want to see posting restricted to registered users. I just want to hear what the guest posters have to say. A lot of good points were made in EmilyM's "forum rules" thread:

http://www.dailyheights.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=378

"i don't mind the 'guest' option - i think if people wish to remain anonymous, they should have the option to do so."

"It would be a shame to stop people with a casual interest from posting meaningful stuff."

"The problem with turning off guest posting is that you raise the bar to entry. A lot of the guest posters have been neighborhood people with no experience with message boards. They have interesting things to say, and they might end up not sharing that info if they would have to go through a registration process to do so." (oh, wait... that was me who said that. ).

anonymous

So I guess I could register but I think it's bad for the board in general because it makes the group more closed.

Registration deters casual users which are the people that become regular users. If you require registration I think you'll see that there will be a limited group of people that post with no outside voices.

If someone does a search on google, comes across the site, and wants to post a comment to something they read, they may not want to go through the registration process for a one time post.

If that person can easily post, they may come back and post again, then again, then they become a regular and may register for the added benefits that offers. If they can't post that first time they may not come back.

Even if they don't become a regular the one post they make may add a valuable comment.

I haven't seen any problems with anon posters myself. The only thing I've seen is the occasional casino ad on the main page but even that is limited. I don't know how easy or difficult it is to put one of those things where you have to type in the word to have your post go through but that would block out the bots that post these ads.

dailyheights

Ben wrote: If that person can easily post, they may come back and post again, then again, then they become a regular and may register for the added benefits that offers.

Excellent points. This is exactly what has happened, time and again, on this board (the exception being YOU, Ben ) I have quit visiting several online communities that were once great because they became too closed and insular.

daveb

Bullshit, people will still post.

It takes two seconds to register and less than that to walk away from the account forever or create a new one. Registering doesn't require you to disclose any more identifying information than posting as a guest. Whether as a guest or user, I identify you by your IP address.

I'd hazard that with more info gathering and restrictive forums/websites, that might be true, but it's simply not the same situation. People are just not understanding what is required to be disclosed by registering, which is nothing more than a guest would disclose.

By removing the guest option, it gives moderators a little more control over mediatiing the cat-fighting. Rather than dragging out issues in the threads, we can contact users privately. Also, guest posting, especially concerning certain people, seems to really piss people off.

It's a simple request, if you're going to be a dickhead, at least give us moderators a way to communicate with you because if looking at the behavior in the past few weeks, assuming that it will not change, just ebb and flow, our only choice is to ban IPs and delete comments.

flute

I tend to agree with your "raising the bar" concept. There are indeed a variety of reasons why people post anonymously as "guest" and as you mentioned, many "guest" comments are quite interesting, well though out, relevant and enhance the quality of the discussions. I, personally, think you'd be shutting out some excellent commentary in imposing a "register or don't post" mandate.

HOWEVER, it does get very confusing (to me at least) to follow when there are multiple "guests" or "anonymous guests" all posting on one thread --- which guest said what, which guest are people responding to, etc. Perhaps people can register as Guest1, Guest2, Guest3, etc., if they are so intent on keeping their anonymity, which I think should be their perogative. Obviously, disrupting the board is not.

Plus, I like the kind of free-wheeling, free-form nature of the posts on this board. Some people go off topic for awhile, perhaps come to a few minor blows, but there generally seems to be a natural tendency to return to the subject at hand, often without the moderator's involvement.

Bottom line, imposing too many restrictions could possibly make it kind of, hmm, boring.

daveb

FLUTE wrote: if they are so intent on keeping their anonymity, which I think should be their perogative. Obviously, disrupting the board is not.

You're missing the point. You're absolutely no less anonymous as a guest than you are as a registered user. Case in point, there's a few people that like to sign out, and post obnoxious stuff as a guest, thinking they're being sneaky, but it's just not like that. Registering gives you the option of including personal info, but you are not required to give that. You are also not required to limit yourself to one account.

flute

Maybe I am getting this wrong, but a Guest may not be anonymous to the moderators, who have access to their name and IP addresses; however, they ARE anonymous to the readers of the board.

And one more minor point - while it is extremely easy to register, sometimes it gets really annoying having to register a name, password, etc., over and over again at location after location to gain access to on-line stuff. I personally am always forgetting my passwords and log-in names.

dailyheights

I agree. I'm tired, tired, tired of registering passwords and usernames at every website on the planet. I can't be the only one.

daveb

dailyheights wrote: I agree. I'm tired, tired, tired of registering passwords and usernames at every website on the planet. I can't be the only one.

Oh shit, I gotta jump off topic and deliver some news to you Firefox users. I had the same headaches with passwords and being a security freak above and beyond the norm, I had quite a headache between managing passwords and worrrying over using the same password for multiple accounts (which is what most people do. Average user maintains 1-2 passwords for everything).

I was recommended a plugin by some of my cryptology buddies and I'm loving it. PassWordMaker works by generating random hashes from the URL you are setting a password for and whatever master password(s) you want. What I mean is, those of you that use one or two master passwords for everything, can still use them, yet generate random strings of passwords for any site. Since I'm seriously forgetful/ADD/paranoid, I ran it through a guantlet of tests and have been using it for 6 months and I can't live without it. Just the knowledge that I don't have to worry about all my info being protected by one password or having to maintain and carry a list of 50 passwords with me wherever I go is great. You should try it out. It's pretty secure and there's plenty of documentation.

Alright...back on topic.

herrick

Is there a way to limit the number of "guest" posts any given IP address can make?

I support being able to just jump into a discussion without having to log on. But I think doing this 70 times without creating a profile is a bit excessive. Can the moderators set alimit and after that you are "encouraged" to sign in and join the group?

daveb

Herrick wrote: Is there a way to limit the number of "guest" posts any given IP address can make?

I don't think so. I was looking at PHPBB Mod add-ons yesterday, perhaps I'll take a look back and see if there's at least something similar to suggest.

alex_richmond86

daveb wrote: ...some news to you Firefox users. I had the same headaches with passwords ...
I was recommended a plugin by some of my cryptology buddies and I'm loving it. PassWordMaker works by generating random hashes from the URL you are setting a password for ...

It works! Very cool.

anonymous

As a guest, I think you should keep the guest function. A lot of the function of the message board appears to be posters seeking information regarding various neighborhood events or businesses. I think it's less likely that someone will post an answer to these posts if you have to register.

Why?

People are lazy...and posting a quick message without having to register is the equivalent of giving somebody the time on the street. It's like chiming into an overhead conversation of someone who is lost on the street. Registering is a bit more formal and a bit more offputting, it's like putting down your tray at an already occupied lunch table...especially for people not really into message boards.

I don't think they will do so if you put in any minor hurdle. So much about the internet has become minor annoyances. Registering EVERYWHERE...for little benefit to the end user.

There are obviously opinions of other more experienced and message board regulars who believe that it is lazy and worthless to complain about registering. That's fine. I just know that I wouldn't register for this board, so there's one less person posting.

daveb

test wrote: [quote=daveb]...some news to you Firefox users. I had the same headaches with passwords ...
I was recommended a plugin by some of my cryptology buddies and I'm loving it. PassWordMaker works by generating random hashes from the URL you are setting a password for ...

It works! Very cool.

Awesome. I do keep an encrypted text file listing the generated passwords, just in case armeggeddon happens or the Pope turns Scientologist, but I've never had to refer to it.

carnivore

Doesn't that program cause a problem when you try to log in from another computer given that you don't actually know the passwords because you rely on the program to remember them?

daveb

Carnivore wrote: Doesn't that program cause a problem when you try to log in from another computer given that you don't actually know the passwords because you rely on the program to remember them?

It depends.

Using Firefox, you can just install the plugin wherever you may be. I have workstations at my office with limited user accounts and installing extensions does not seem to be a problem as the extensions are essentially just scripts run within Firefox and if you have permission to run Firefox, you shouldn't experience any restrictions on installing extensions.

Since the hash is determined by the URL and the master password used when generating it, you don't need to be at the same computer each time. You just need to navigate to the login page and have the extension generate the hash, if the master password is exactly the same each time, so will the hash be.

When I travel, I do carry an encrypted master list of the generated passwords using GPG installed on my palm or a USB keychain, just in case I get stuck using IE, but it's never really more trouble than it's worth to me.

dailyheights

I just thought of a problem with that password generator. It assumes that you use the computer in one place. What if you're at a friend's house/on the road/in an internet cafe and you don't have access to Mozilla with this particular plugin?

emily

dailyheights wrote: I just thought of a problem with that password generator. It assumes that you use the computer in one place. What if you're at a friend's house/on the road/in an internet cafe and you don't have access to Mozilla with this particular plugin?

Why would you want to go anywhere that doesn't have Mozilla?

daveb

dailyheights wrote: I just thought of a problem with that password generator. It assumes that you use the computer in one place. What if you're at a friend's house/on the road/in an internet cafe and you don't have access to Mozilla with this particular plugin?

Check my last post. Since nothing is stored and is generated on the fly using an algorithm you can specify and produced using two keys, the URL and the master password(s), you are not restricted to any particualr computer.

However, yes, it is a firefox plugin and therefore, is dependant on you using it. That's why you need to browbeat all your friends and relatives to quit fucking with IE and get with it! I threaten them with thumbscrews and castration, personally.

Since it is feasible you'll be stuck with an IE browser periodically, I keep an encrypted list on my palm and a USB flash drive as backup. However, I've never had to use it.

Or, you can use IE to navigate to the online version, hosted by the creators and use it with any browser. I think you can also install it on your own site too. I should look into that, might be useful for me. It's open source too.

I was just reading that the developers are working on several different products including a desktop version, but check 'em out, their FAQ answers a lot of questions: passwordmaker.org

cyn707

1. moderators: I think this thread is an excellent candidate for the split function - you have two totally different topics happening in the same thread.

2. seems there is a lot of support for the option of posting as guest. on another phpbb board i frequent, the moderator is in love with the lock function - he frequently locks threads that are outdated or that turn into abusive arguments. if you don't require logging in (and i don't think you should), that's a tool you can consider to deal with abusive posts. i also think a policy of "don't feed the trolls" is better than requiring logging in, although i acknowledge that it can be difficult, as it requires self-restraint on the part of all users.

3. i think many guest posts have been positive and guests have made useful contributions. even many of the "bad" guest posts have been interesting because, looking past the vitriol they often contain, the guest often voices opinions that are different from what you generally see here.

just my 2 cents.

daveb

1. moderators: I think this thread is an excellent candidate for the split function - you have two totally different topics happening in the same thread.

1. Whatever. People can just PM me if they want to discuss the plugin, it actually is somewhat slightly on topic as we were discussing the annoyances of passwords, but we're back on topic now. Nothing in this message board ever stays on topic. With that stated, we are now back on topic! :P

2. seems there is a lot of support for the option of posting as guest. on another phpbb board i frequent, the moderator is in love with the lock function - he frequently locks threads that are outdated or that turn into abusive arguments. if you don't require logging in (and i don't think you should), that's a tool you can consider to deal with abusive posts. i also think a policy of "don't feed the trolls" is better than requiring logging in, although i acknowledge that it can be difficult, as it requires self-restraint on the part of all users.

2. "Don't feed the trolls" is the way to go, I completely agree. Unfortunately, many people here either do not agree or cannot control themselves from behaving just as badly, so it doesn't quite work out. Locking the posts...well, it ends the thread... I guess in extreme cases...maybe it's warranted. I'm more inclined to penalize individual posters, which is why I advocated registering because that lets me open private dialogs with them to mediate.

3. i think many guest posts have been positive and guests have made useful contributions. even many of the "bad" guest posts have been interesting because, looking past the vitriol they often contain, the guest often voices opinions that are different from what you generally see here.

3. Yep, lotsa people with dissenting opinions and if you read the threads, you'll see that admin, myself and lotsa people on this board bend over backwards to keep them contributing, but the issue is respect. At issue is the abusiveness, blatant trolling. Some of these guys do listen and end up contributing constructive dissenting posts only to be slammed by registered users. It comes from both ends, however currently, the worst is coming from unregistered users.

daveb

You know, I do believe there's an option/mod that lets moderators/admins dole out suspensions... Say 48-72 hour spankings for not behaving.

anonymous

Subject: quick last case for keeping guests, compromise

Everyone -

I think the case for keeping it open can be illustrated by the post I just made in the Charleston thread. I hope it contributed to the discussion, but there's no real reason for me to register. I'm not a resident of Prospect Heights, and I doubt I would have much to contribute on a regular basis. I was pointed to the thread by a friend who is a resident and regular contributor.

Yes, passwords take 2 seconds to make and can be fogotten forever, but for those of us who would post rarely, it would give us the choice between creating another unique password (that we'd likely forget between postings), or just using a generic password that we use in a lot of places - and making it just a bit less secure.

I think the solution would be a compromise, if possible. Anonymous people, like me, should be allowed a certain number of posts, say 5 a week, and we cannot start threads. Otherwise, we'd have to register. That keeps the occasional posters interested while forcing the regular contributors (and detractors) into the spotlight.

You've probably mentioned this solution before, though I didn't have time to read all the other ideas.

Best -
Jamie

carnivore

daveb wrote: You know, I do believe there's an option/mod that lets moderators/admins dole out suspensions... Say 48-72 hour spankings for not behaving.

That's an excellent idea.

dailyheights

Carnivore wrote: [quote=daveb]You know, I do believe there's an option/mod that lets moderators/admins dole out suspensions... Say 48-72 hour spankings for not behaving.

That's an excellent idea.

Wouldn't really change anything, because it would only apply to registered users. "Recurrent problem posters" are never registered users; they are always unregistered guests. I suppose banning the guest's IP address for 48-72 hours would have the same effect.

anonymous

Regarding the problem of multiple "Guest" posts from different people, is it possible to require that a username is entered? As I understand it if nothing is entered the user just shows up as "Guest" leading to possible confusion. If some name, any name, is required then at least if someone wants to respond to a particular post they can reference the name.

This would be like someone posting in grey on craigslist.

dailyheights

Ben wrote: Regarding the problem of multiple "Guest" posts from different people, is it possible to require that a username is entered? As I understand it if nothing is entered the user just shows up as "Guest" leading to possible confusion. If some name, any name, is required then at least if someone wants to respond to a particular post they can reference the name.

This would be like someone posting in grey on craigslist.

It doesn't appear to be an option with this BB system. EmilyM may know? It seems like such an obvious feature to have... I'm surprised it doesn't exist.

daveb

dailyheights wrote: [quote=Ben]Regarding the problem of multiple "Guest" posts from different people, is it possible to require that a username is entered? As I understand it if nothing is entered the user just shows up as "Guest" leading to possible confusion. If some name, any name, is required then at least if someone wants to respond to a particular post they can reference the name.

This would be like someone posting in grey on craigslist.

It doesn't appear to be an option with this BB system. EmilyM may know? It seems like such an obvious feature to have... I'm surprised it doesn't exist.

I think there's a mod you can install, I'll check it out sometime today.

captain m

Is there a way to change your name without losing "Grand Master" status?