Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

brooklynpotter

next time anyone gets asked, try to snag me one of those fruits that looks like the lemon (it's an etrog). i need the peel/rind for a project, and buying them yourself costs $25

kosherdave

doublediamond wrote: [quote=sweet tea]
i always regret having to say no.

Me too.

You can always convert j/k

doublediamond

kosherdave wrote: [quote=doublediamond][quote=sweet tea]
i always regret having to say no.

Me too.

You can always convert j/k

Almost did when I was 19! I had an epiphany right before I was to appear before the rabbinical court, that I didn't need to belong to a religion to be spiritual. Although, sometimes I look back and wish that I did, but it was a really difficult process to do all by myself, even though my family was very supportive.

brooklynpotter

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

lmboogie wrote: [quote=bklyngirl718][quote=lmboogie]
if the black kids instead asked me to pray with them and the hasidic men allowed me to pray with them. then maybe i'd be getting closer to a perfect analogy.

Wow. I have to seriously consider moving. I just don't know what to say.

what about my comment offended you?

i think she was offended because your comment was pretty, how shall we say, off-color.

the hasidic men do not way to pray with you, they want you to come to temple. they're not like the "black" kids selling candy because they're not trying to trick you.

do you get offended when the church kids stand at the top of the subway entrance and give you a baggie with juice and a granola bar and a little pamphlet?

here's my take on the whole "are you jewish" thing: i am jewish (not unlike kosher-dave, but possibly less jewish), but i don't like being approached. and i don't like sharing my business with strangers (unless you're a libertarian or republican and you're stopping me to talk about your election...). so i just tell them i'm not and i'm on my merry way. when they come to my HOME however, just like the watchtower people, i ask them to leave. they're on private property, and this makes a huge difference.

scout

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

lmboogie wrote:
my comments on how surprised i am at a jewish girl with tatts was to point out how ignorant that statement sounds. i was referencing the latest o'reilly commnets on black folks.

Well, to the ultra-Orthodox, a Jewish girl with tattoos would be breaking halakhic law. Tattoos are a really big no no and are expressly forbidden in the Torah.

Now the reform (and even conservative) Jewish branches don't have a problem with tattoos, but as the subject at hand is the Hasidim, her statement is not in the least bit ignorant. They probably would ignore a girl with tons of tattoos, as no one who is following their interpretation of Torah would have them.

brooklynpotter

you forgot to add that many of these customs have been overlooked because of the tattoing of holocaust survivors.

as for the men asking if you're jewish, it's my understanding that they're from the lubavitch sect, where "recruiting" is part of their job and where they'll basically bring as many people as they can over to their faith.

scout

brooklynpotter wrote: you forgot to add that many of these customs have been overlooked because of the tattoing of holocaust survivors.

The interpretation now (and I think always) was that the law only refers to voluntary tattooing.

Holocaust survivors' tattoos, therefore, would not be a violation, but caseopele's would.

sweet tea

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

brooklynpotter wrote:
do you get offended when the church kids stand at the top of the subway entrance and give you a baggie with juice and a granola bar and a little pamphlet?

last time i checked, lots of people complain about jehovah's witnesses.

i like a good awake now and then, but i'm pretty sure i'm in the minority.

and kosherdave, i've definitely considered it. but i don't like the idea of being called "stranger". and i miss the hymns at easter.

bklyngirl718

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

brooklynpotter wrote:

what about my comment offended you?

i think she was offended because your comment was pretty, how shall we say, off-color.



Thanks for your eloquence. I couldn't find the right words.

mookie wilson

the hasidim aren't trying to "convert" anyone. that's why they ask if you're jewish -- if you're not, they don't have time for you.

jamzer

It always amazes me how little tolerance people have for others. If you don't like being approached, ignore them. They won't come chasing after you. Look - you could always move to a cabin in New Hampshire. No Hasids, Jehovah Witnesses, pan handlers, AM New York distributors, Green Peace activists, or Democratic Party fund raisers there.

brooklynpotter

Mookie Wilson wrote: the hasidim aren't trying to "convert" anyone. that's why they ask if you're jewish -- if you're not, they don't have time for you.

not entirely true.

if you're in any way jewish, they want to bring you back to the religion. if you're not jewish, but are interested, chabad/lubavitchers may court you. but NOT on sukkot when they are approaching you on the street (the latter, not the former)

caseopele

See, what I find interesting is the reaction I get when I say I'm not Jewish. About half of the time it's as if I suddenly don't exist, like the second the words left my mouth, I disappeared. The ones who are usually nice to me are the young girls who ask.

brooklynpotter

cas, it's because the only time the men are allowed to talk to a woman who's not his wife, sister, etc., is when it's about business. they're not out there looking to make friends.

the women, however, are allowed to speak with other women. but not men.

mookie wilson

once i responded "no" to the question "are you jewish." he looked at me and said, "are you sure?" which i thought was a weird response, until i walked away and realized that the chain i wear around my neck (which features a star of david) was outside my shirt.

caseopele

brooklynpotter wrote: cas, it's because the only time the men are allowed to talk to a woman who's not his wife, sister, etc., is when it's about business. they're not out there looking to make friends.

the women, however, are allowed to speak with other women. but not men.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I didn't even think about that being the reason. I thought they just were completely disinterested in me since I wasn't Jewish. Makes sense now.

sweet tea

Mookie Wilson wrote: once i responded "no" to the question "are you jewish." he looked at me and said, "are you sure?" which i thought was a weird response, until i walked away and realized that the chain i wear around my neck (which features a star of david) was outside my shirt.

heh. after i said no once last fall, a woman pinned me to a BBG fountain with her stroller, narrowed her eyes, and said "you look jewish". all these little kids in matching clothes were staring up at me from her skirts. it was a great moment.

the chipster

as for the men asking if you're jewish, it's my understanding that they're from the lubavitch sect, where "recruiting" is part of their job and where they'll basically bring as many people as they can over to their faith."

Jews don't recruit or do missionary work. They do believe in getting "jewish" people back in the fold though. And from their perspective; I undertand it, but will not go off on organized religions just yet.

We have always done whatever it is they offer--blowing of the shofar, holding the citron (?)whenever I have the time. It's a mitvah! It's street performance!! And we have never been asked to join their temple. Never.

"The atheist in the foxhole"

bklyngirl718

The Chipster wrote: as for the men asking if you're jewish, it's my understanding that they're from the lubavitch sect, where "recruiting" is part of their job and where they'll basically bring as many people as they can over to their faith."

Even the Lubavitch are forbidden to "recruit' during holy days, or (forgive me, I don't remember the exact phrase).

this being Sukkot (and other holy days of observance thrown in) they are only doing a mitzvah.

Take it or leave it - it's your choice, and no one is insulted if you say no.

kosherdave

I ran into some in Union Sq last night when my gf and I were coming back from dinner. This time I did the prayers with them and even went into the sukkah for a snack ... 7-up and some white/black oreo-type cookies. These guys know how to party!

jeffrey

I was approached while walking with my kids at the corner of Vanderbilt and Park Place late yesterday.

They had a flatbed truck with a little "house" on it with a roof made of leaves and branches set up on the SW corner for the occasion.

The guy was really nice when he approached us, said hello to the kids and asked if we'd like to shake the branch and say a prayer. I mentioned that we're not Jewish, but asked if the kids could still do it anyway.

Unlike other reports, in our case, the guy didn't just turn away. He said "absolutely," and helped the kids do it in an extremely friendly manner, and then had some very nice words as we said good-bye.

All in all, it was a very good experience and definitely reflective of why we enjoy living here.

8thandprez

I've been all over the place on my reaction to the (seemingly frequent) "are you jewish?" question I get around the Grand Army Plaza 2/3 stop. Usually I ignore, or say no. More than once, when feeling particularly aggressively atheist, I'll inform them that I believe in nothing, or that I believe in science. Sometimes I find it offensive, mostly it's just strange. Of course, being gay, I'm coming at it from a slightly different place... I don't think Othodox Judaism is particularly kind towards the gays.

sprite

caseopele wrote: [quote=brooklynpotter]cas, it's because the only time the men are allowed to talk to a woman who's not his wife, sister, etc., is when it's about business. they're not out there looking to make friends.

the women, however, are allowed to speak with other women. but not men.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I didn't even think about that being the reason. I thought they just were completely disinterested in me since I wasn't Jewish. Makes sense now.
This was my reaction too. Thanks for the explanation bp!

filmlover44

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

lmboogie wrote: i walk out of the grand army plaza train station and there are two hasidic men standing there asking folks (not me of course) "are you jewish?". they both have these plants in their hands. ok, i start going for my wallet cause i'm thinking maybe they are begging for money but then stop myself. walk down one block to 8th ave and there is a little hasidic boy with a another man, asking (not me of course) "are you jewish?
i keep walking to 7th ave and find yet more guys asking (not me of course) "are you jewish?" so i finally stop and say... no, but what's this about? and they literally walked away from me.

Damn it! can't i leave the train station without being asked my religion. why don't they get jobs. shouldn't they be at work. where are the damn parents. stop bothering me, i'm just trying to get home. why are there so many of them on each corner. that is it, i'm calling the cops. they should be arrested. arggg. get a job! sound familiar.

any way.... anyone know what that's about?

I doubt that these were regular Hassid. They were probably Lubovitch. They are a cult who try to "convert" non religious jews during the jewish holidays. It's not even really considered to be a conversion, since the non religious jews are already jews.

brooklynpotter

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

filmlover44 wrote:

I doubt that these were Hassid. They were probably Lubovitch. They are a cult who try to convert non religious jews during the jewish holidays.

the lubavitch are hassidic views, and they are not a cult. saying so is insulting and pretty anti-semitic. you may not like them, but their outreach programs extend far further than the guys on the street. they run the "chabad" houses, branches of which are in most major cities in the world and offer refuse and help for ALL jews, regardless of affiliation.

jeffrey

Probably a good time to throw in this tangential piece that made the rounds earlier this year:

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/03/orthodox_jewish.php

Now if Amelie Poulain could just get her father's perambulatory garden gnome to pose in front of each...
(I guess she'd have a Travelocity commercial)

jeffrey

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

brooklynpotter wrote: the lubavitch are hassidic views, and they are not a cult. saying so is insulting and pretty anti-semitic. you may not like them, but their outreach programs extend far further than the guys on the street. they run the "chabad" houses, branches of which are in most major cities in the world and offer refuse and help for ALL jews, regardless of affiliation.

The nice fellow who offered to pray and shake the branch with my kids was with a group from the Chabad Prospect Heights, which I noted from the card he gave me mentioning their org's web site (which is a pretty nice site, for a local/neighborhood organization...):
http://www.brooklynyid.com

filmlover44

Subject: Re: Hasidic Men on 7th Ave

brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=filmlover44]

I doubt that these were Hassid. They were probably Lubovitch. They are a cult who try to convert non religious jews during the jewish holidays.

the lubavitch are hassidic views, and they are not a cult. saying so is insulting and pretty anti-semitic. you may not like them, but their outreach programs extend far further than the guys on the street. they run the "chabad" houses, branches of which are in most major cities in the world and offer refuse and help for ALL jews, regardless of affiliation.


I certainly never said that I don't like the Lubavitch or that they don't do good things for all Jews. I said that they were cultish.

I do love people who throw out the words anti-semitic because they don't like what someone says. Would you like for me to throw out my "creds" in order to defend myself against your unkind and unwarranted lies about me? If not, move along. You have a right to disagree with me. You have a a right to argue with me about whether or not they are cultish - I can handle that. You do not have any right whatsoever to call me names.

kosherdave

I'm not 100% sure, but aren't cults NOT parts of specified religions? Or can they be a subgroup of a religion? Either way, I don't think saying the lubavitch are a cult is really anti-semetic, per se, but I think it's inaccurate and a little offensive. I guess they do act cult-ish to a degree, in the sense that they are a group unto themselves, but still.

Wikipedia says :
"Cult roughly refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception."

But since the Lubavitch are JEWS, just in a stricter practice, I don't think they are any more outside "mainstream" culture than are any other orthodox jews.

I think "sect" would be a better term and probably less offensive sounding.

filmlover44

kosherdave wrote: I'm not 100% sure, but aren't cults NOT parts of specified religions? Or can they be a subgroup of a religion? Either way, I don't think saying the lubavitch are a cult is really anti-semetic, per se, but I think it's inaccurate and a little offensive. I guess they do act cult-ish to a degree, in the sense that they are a group unto themselves, but still.

Wikipedia says :
"Cult roughly refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception."

But since the Lubavitch are JEWS, just in a stricter practice, I don't think they are any more outside "mainstream" culture than are any other orthodox jews.

I think "sect" would be a better term and probably less offensive sounding.

Well, not really. Cults are usually off-shoots of mainstream religions (all mainstream religions start off as cults that are off-shoots of mainstream religions) but they do all share certain traits with each other. I disagree that the Lubavitch (at least some groups of them) are not outside of the mainstream, but I am certainly ok with having people disagree with me on that.