Kid shot by cops? Just on the news...

pitu

The mother of someone with mental problems should be able to call for help and not have her son shot, that's all.
Even if he is raving and holding two butcher knives when the police arrive.


We've heard parts of the 911 calls -- he is heard in the background saying he has a gun, but she is making the call - saying he is crazy but he does not have a gun.
I don't know where the breakdown in communication came, but the PD should have known they were coming to deal with a crazy person who was claiming to have a gun but who didn't have a gun. Just as a starting point. It's not PD policy to show up to assist in a suicide by cop, is it? Since when is the PD supposed to shoot at someone who SAYS they have a gun, as opposed to someone actually using a gun. The city's mobile units to deal with crazy people should have been the response -- a team with mental health professionals and PD.

guvna

ParadeRest wrote: Twenty rounds were fired by 5 officers but how many struck the victim? I'm hearing ten hits. Ten rounds fired or even twenty is not at all too many. During the gun battle in the 77 over the summer there were over 100 rounds discharged by police with only a few hits. The fatal wound didn't occur until officers were literally on top of the perp and his was still firing. If he is still advancing and the officers believe he is armed(whether or not the officers are mistaken about a weapon) then he is still a threat. These 20 rounds could be discharged within seconds.

In some instances it may be possible to designate a cover officer and a contact officer. In tactical entry situations where there is a pre-plan this may also be determined before hand. Unfortunately it is not always possible to do this. From the time this guy came through the window till the time the officers discharged their weapons was probably less than a minute.

We aren't talking about a protracted stand off, barricaded perp or hostage situation that could go on for hours. We are talking about a suicidal man who was not behaving rationally and unfortunately was considered a credible threat to life by the officers on the scene.

Guvna, I'm not pulling anything. I don't really care if you think that this was excessive. Officers don't go to work everyday saying,"I'm gonna shoot somebody today." They go to work hoping that they won't have to pull their weapon, that they won't have to defend their life, that they will go home at the end of the night. I don't know a cop who wouldn't mind never having to draw their weapon again.

Well, not expecting a suspect to go out the fire escape seems incredibly naive. Not planning for that contingency seems reckless.

As for 100 rounds with a few hits over the summer, again that sounds like poor training. How often do they take target practice with moving targets? Lastly, 20 shots within seconds is exactly the problem that I alluded to. How on earth can you say that 20 shots is "not at all too many"? It would appear that these cops share your view, which is sad. There seems to be no thought to neutralize the threat - only to destroy it. With a so-called contact officer, properly trained, it would seem to me that he/she could fire a shot of two behind cover and assess the damage. Simply squeezing the trigger blindly doesnt sound like proper procedure, and if it is, something is horribly wrong. This appears to support my view. They each fired at least four rounds each. Interestingly, one of the cops has killed a pitbull with one shot, and another has wounded two pitbulls without having to kill them, so it shows they are good shots and know how to show restraint.

I havent said that cops want to kill people. I have only said that their training seems woefully inadequate, as evidenced by their exercise of excessive force resulting in the death of an unarmed boy.

MOD NOTE: Edited to fix your link issue that was breaking the page.

alafairnadia

2 things about this incident that freak me out:

1. I am in total agreement with pitu. If someone is calling the cops saying "this guy is crazy, he doesn't have a gun, he's a threat to himself only" (just a summary - she'd apparently been trying to get him into a mental hospital that day), the response should not be "this guy has a gun!" and "let's shoot him when he doesn't immediately comply!"

2. whether or not the shooting is justified, I think 20 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, whatever is excessive. why? cops shooting weapons that many times and for that long is completely nuts. they should a) be able to hit a freakin' target and b) know to aim before they shoot. cops shooting that many times with such a low hit ratio smacks of criminals killing innocents during their shootouts. except criminals aren't paid to, among other things, be trained to shoot their weapons with reasonable accuracy.

I took a self-defense course a few years ago and one of the things they told us was that the average person who doesn't know how to shoot loses massive amounts of accuracy with a weapon every 5 feet they are removed from their target. they reassured the class by saying that cops and other trained professionals who regularly go to target practice have much greater accuracy, even at distance and with moving targets. so when I hear that the cops fired off X number of shots with Y number of hits where X >= Y/2, I get more than a little concerned. I'd like our cops to be able to shoot a minimum number of times with much greater accuracy. of course, I'd prefer it if they didn't have to ever shoot anyone.

king without a crown

As for the 911 call.....The officers were responding to a Family dispute with a firearm. Responding officers do not hear the actually 911 call, they hear a brief description of the occurence from the 911 dispatcher who reads it from a computer screen that is typed in by a 911 operator. Officers responding usually don't know the History of the the parties calling the Police and don't know the severity of the situation. Hundreds of these "man with a gun" calls are recieved by Police in the City on a daily basis. The majority of these calls are unfounded, and the majority of them end without incident. The events on that day are unfortunate for all parties involved. It's not neccesary to rip apart the victim or the Police involved. Lets just try to get a better understanding of what happened to prevent future incidents. I also would encourage anyone who is interested to participate in the NYPD "Ride Along" Program. Members of the Community can ride in the back of a Police car and see what the Men and Women of NYC Police Dept deal with on a Daily basis.
(Contact your local Precinct's Community Affairs Officer for further info)

boogieknight

The high numbers of shots fired by police today likely ties in when they switched over to semi-auto pistols from revolvers.

Perhaps a switch back to revolvers (limiting to six shots before reloading), but of higher and more lethal stopping power?

I'd be interested in what theory of gunfighting is taught at police academies, particularly NYC's.

Is it fire as many shots as possible as quickly as possible until you're positive the threat is subdued or ESU shows up and takes over, or...

Taking controlled shots until the perp is subdued/decomissioned, while ensuring your own safety, as well as that of civilians and fellow officers.

The answer would go a long way towards explaining the aftermath of these scenes. The public may be disquieted by the real story, but I think honesty and clarity are better than sugarcoating the truth....

total hypothetical here..."We train our officers to shoot and shoot and shoot until the threat is eliminated. We train our officers that if the situation is 50/50 that there is no real threat at hand, then its better to be safe than sorry, and they should proceed to shoot and shoot and shoot.

anonymous

It's a complex situation.

From the NYT coverage, it sounded like the cops inside the building were acting sanely and the cops outside had no idea what was going on and immediately overreacted to a situation that was not as threatening as it looked. That sounds unprofessional, but the whole event transpired over a short period of time. The police are not like Mr. Smith from the Matrix--it's a force of individuals who must communicate in time, just like the rest of us.

That said--of course the kid would exit via the fire escape! Wouldn't the first thing the cops upstairs do be tell the folks downstairs what to anticipate?

And twenty bullets? Nothing justifies twenty bullets, about five per officer. I can't imagine it.

eberri

What about the fact that let's see, this has ONLY been happening to Black Men. Or is that just a coincidence? Really, all hell would break loose in this country if this were happening repeatedly to any other gender/racial group.

The cops just keep shooting and killing BLACK MEN with 20+ bullets (who don't have anything on them) by mistake(?!)... This is the definition of racism (how people don't see -or just choose not to admit- the racial side of this to me is insane). This is not happening to anyone else... What is up with that?!

We do not live in an equal world...

anonymous

Eberri,

It's actually untrue that only black men get shot by cops. People of all colors get shot by cops. It is absolutely true that many many more young black men than any other group get shot by cops, and this is a serious problem. But when you say that only black men get shot by cops, it sounds as if cops are on safari, which takes away from the real problem.

Cops will shoot at anyone who they are threatened by.

So there seem to be these two interlocking problems. On one hand, cops shoot young black men for the same reason it is hard for even a well-dressed black man to get a cab in this town. On the other, there is a world of young black men who do nothing to free themselves from this heinous stereotype, instead choosing to revel in thuggery.

This makes for a very complicated stew. In some ways, I can't fault a young black man for going ahead and being the scary creature everbody thinks he is anyway. It takes a superhuman amount of maturity, self-control and self-worth to grow up well in a culture that does seem to be actively hunting you. In order for young black men to succeed, particularly in a neighborhood like B-S, it seems that they need to be exercising all that righteous might by the age of like ten, and that is so hard it's unbelievable.

But just because we all understand exactly how stacked the deck is--does that make actual violence okay? Coppin absolutely should not have been killed. But he wasn't hunted like an innocent antelope. He had weapons and a record, and was behaving in a genuinely threatening manner. A lot of this discussion is total Monday-Morning Quarterbacking. Sure, now it's easy to see that it was a hairbrush and not a gun. But if you were the cop in that moment and it was your job to protect everyone else around you and yourself, and you didn't have information, like the second 911 call, or what the cops upstairs saw , what would you have done?

The problem is manifold:

There is a stereotype that makes black men the object of fear. This is a serious disadvantage, but not totally insurmountable. There are lots of black men who might get pulled over more often than white people do, and who should generally be commended for having the patience to constantly battle this stereotype, but are in no real danger of being shot, no matter where they are. There are also an alarming number of black men who are being killed--sometimes by cops, but more often by one another. It is obvious that this terrible stereotype keeps a number of black men under its spell. And it is obvious that this creates a whole culture of violence that is *not* just about the cops shooting boys, but is also about boys shooting and knifing one another.

The quesiton becomes: what do we do about it? I think that question becomes: what resources can we give young black men in this neighborhood, so that they may better resist this pressure to give in and become what everyone thinks they are? Because even though it's completely unfair, it is ultimately the black man's problem.

I think that the good news is that problems are always surmountable, and that struggle creates strength, and that no one who fights an unfair battle like this fights in vain. There is much to learn about oneself and one's own power in this struggle. It is a shame that we are all walking on streets named after men who not only knew this struggle but mentally benefitted from it--incredibly strong men like Marcus Garvey--and yet are not learning from their actual example.

kgs

Guest wrote: The quesiton becomes: what do we do about it? I think that question becomes: what resources can we give young black men in this neighborhood, so that they may better resist this pressure to give in and become what everyone thinks they are?

I think most people who are reasonably conscious know that is the question. Now, what is your answer?

I was a social worker for years with teens in foster care, in schools and in community based settings. I counseled, led workshops and discussions, provided support, advocacy, etc. Now that I no longer do that work I implore my elected officials to increase the quality and accessibility of educational, recreational and employment opportunities for young people, as well as implementing programs and policies to address economic disparity (which is closely linked with race). I treat people with respect unless they deserve otherwise, and I work to understand and remain empathic toward the experiences and concerns of those in cultures other than my own. I can't do everything and sometimes it seems like I can't do much but I do what I can.

No one is bound to do anything in particular, but everyone should think about what they can and are willing to do in response to this question, otherwise it is just rhetoric.

Peace.

MOD NOTE: quote fixed.

paraderest

P.S.-There is no real answer to how a police officer will handle a potential terrorist. Your guess is as good as mine. There are too many variables.

eberri

Anonymous wrote: Eberri,

It's actually untrue that only black men get shot by cops. People of all colors get shot by cops. It is absolutely true that many many more young black men than any other group get shot by cops, and this is a serious problem. But when you say that only black men get shot by cops, it sounds as if cops are on safari, which takes away from the real problem.

Cops will shoot at anyone who they are threatened by.

So there seem to be these two interlocking problems. On one hand, cops shoot young black men for the same reason it is hard for even a well-dressed black man to get a cab in this town. On the other, there is a world of young black men who do nothing to free themselves from this heinous stereotype, instead choosing to revel in thuggery.

This makes for a very complicated stew. In some ways, I can't fault a young black man for going ahead and being the scary creature everbody thinks he is anyway. It takes a superhuman amount of maturity, self-control and self-worth to grow up well in a culture that does seem to be actively hunting you. In order for young black men to succeed, particularly in a neighborhood like B-S, it seems that they need to be exercising all that righteous might by the age of like ten, and that is so hard it's unbelievable.

But just because we all understand exactly how stacked the deck is--does that make actual violence okay? Coppin absolutely should not have been killed. But he wasn't hunted like an innocent antelope. He had weapons and a record, and was behaving in a genuinely threatening manner. A lot of this discussion is total Monday-Morning Quarterbacking. Sure, now it's easy to see that it was a hairbrush and not a gun. But if you were the cop in that moment and it was your job to protect everyone else around you and yourself, and you didn't have information, like the second 911 call, or what the cops upstairs saw , what would you have done?

The problem is manifold:

There is a stereotype that makes black men the object of fear. This is a serious disadvantage, but not totally insurmountable. There are lots of black men who might get pulled over more often than white people do, and who should generally be commended for having the patience to constantly battle this stereotype, but are in no real danger of being shot, no matter where they are. There are also an alarming number of black men who are being killed--sometimes by cops, but more often by one another. It is obvious that this terrible stereotype keeps a number of black men under its spell. And it is obvious that this creates a whole culture of violence that is *not* just about the cops shooting boys, but is also about boys shooting and knifing one another.

The quesiton becomes: what do we do about it? I think that question becomes: what resources can we give young black men in this neighborhood, so that they may better resist this pressure to give in and become what everyone thinks they are? Because even though it's completely unfair, it is ultimately the black man's problem.

I think that the good news is that problems are always surmountable, and that struggle creates strength, and that no one who fights an unfair battle like this fights in vain. There is much to learn about oneself and one's own power in this struggle. It is a shame that we are all walking on streets named after men who not only knew this struggle but mentally benefitted from it--incredibly strong men like Marcus Garvey--and yet are not learning from their actual example.

Of course it is untrue that only black men are ever shot by cops, but in recent history, who else (other than black men) who have been shot 20+ times by the NYC cops by mistake?

I agree with much of what you wrote. Black men do have to help themselves and too many of them don't take advantage of the (few) opportunities they have to improve their lives i.e. education. Its not simply because they choose not too, but unfortunately, not everyone is born into the ideal situation to cultivate them becoming a productive member of society.

There is a vicious cycle of poverty, violence, lack of opportunity, lack of education and just plain ignorance to the rest of the world that keeps some black people stuck in their situations. It doesn't justify why they remain stuck, but it does explain how tremendously challenging it is to overcome especially if given little to no help/direction/guidance from ones immediate family or even society as a whole.

Given these circumstances and they way things are now, it isn't just up to black men to change their ways, its up to ALL of us. If there is a population of our society that is underserved, underprivileged or even just undereducated, who do you think is going to pay the price for what an individual from that population does when out and about and unprepared for life in the world? We ALL do. We ALL create the societal cycle we have in our neighborhoods, by the priorities and values we place on things within our society. If there is more discussion about the newest restaurants wine bars and cheese shops on this board rather than the fact that half of the kids attending public school in the city don't graduate and what we can do about that, what kind of future does that hold for any of us.

It seems many would be happy to just see the projects and poor people living in the newly gentrified parts of Bklyn just go away. But that is not going to happen, we all need to work towards a solution to the ills of society. Buying a million dollar brownstone in the hood doesn't change the lives of the people you are surrounded by; it just creates more of a divide. The burden to improve our future, lives and neighborhoods (and ALL the people that live in them) is on all of us, and if we don't address it collectively, we will all suffer from it as a result individually at some point (in one way or another).

eberri

BTW, In response to you suggesting that I'm making it "sound" like cops are on safari the way they shoot Black men, You're right!

It not only sounds that way, but doesn't it seem that way? Even hunters out on safari don't go after an animal five on one and spray it with 20+ bullets....

In fact, it seems that hunters are actually more humane when killing their prey since they take fewer shots and use fewer bullets...

paraderest

eberri wrote: Even hunters out on safari don't go after an animal five on one and spray it with 20+ bullets...

If the doe was thought to be armed and advancing on the hunter despite his warnings then the hunter might just shoot 5 times and others in his group might also fire upon the advancing threat.

hamilton

eberri wrote: BTW, In response to you suggesting that I'm making it "sound" like cops are on safari the way they shoot Black men, You're right!

. Even hunters out on safari don't go after an animal five on one and spray it with 20+ bullets....

In fact, it seems that hunters are actually more humane when killing their prey since they take fewer shots and use fewer bullets...

******************************************************
Maybe his mother should have called a hunter.

eberri

ParadeRest wrote: [quote=eberri] Even hunters out on safari don't go after an animal five on one and spray it with 20+ bullets...

If the doe was thought to be armed and advancing on the hunter despite his warnings then the hunter might just shoot 5 times and others in his group might also fire upon the advancing threat.

Yeah, cause it takes 20+ bullets to stop an advancing unarmed "threat" when you are a "trained" cop with back up right? Sounds right to me....

king without a crown

Maybe his mother should have called a hunter.

pitu

King without a crown wrote: Maybe his mother should have called a hunter.

That is so out of order, kwac. Reckless indifference, anyone? You're not doing the PD proud.

hamilton

Subject: Shootout

I don't and won't know what really set off the shooting until $harpton tell$ hi$ ver$ion.

eberri

So not surprising though, given some of the opinions voiced here...

And hey its only the death of a black teen, so who cares right? Let's make light and add smiley faces....

hamilton

eberri wrote: So not surprising though, given some of the opinions voiced here...

And hey its only the death of a black teen, so who cares right? Let's make light and add smiley faces....

******************************************************
He was a black felon who had been arrested five times for armed muggings against women since 2005, your right lets make him a hero .
Lets put his grammer school picture in the papers [ which may be ok if he was 18 and still in grammer school]and make a saint out of him.
Lets tell everyone the system failed him ,not his parents and have $harpton,Barron and the other race hu$tler Rev. Daugherty stand on City Hall steps and scream no justice no peace .
Lets get real it was a tragedy,but if you were a Police Officer and somebody came at you and you thought your life was in danger and after warning the person to stop, would you say "can't we all get along " or would you protect yourself.
There isn't a conspiracy against blacks and I'm tired of reading about it in these threads.
Stop blaming the system and take the responsibility to tend to your own.

eberri

No one said he was a saint

1. He was shot more than 20+

2. This tragedy has recently only been happening to black men in nyc.

I'm not defending him as a criminal in any way, and never have been.

Of course there is no conspiracy against blacks, there doesn't have to be, because there is still racism, or does that no longer exist?

I love my people and am disgusted by some of us now and we need to step up, but why we are in our current condition is not the fault of us alone or a result of us just not "tending to ourselves". There is still systematic discrimination as a result of the imbalance of power in so many facets of society, and the black family as a unit is still recovering from the atrocities committed against us, for starters.

Personal responsibility is paramount, I come from a lineage of people, many of who have managed to overcome/avoid the ills that exist in society. Not everyone is that fortunate. I am also not looking to blame anyone for my personal failures or shortcomings, but as a black woman, I know when I face obstacles of sex and race and know that those obstacles still exist and are in fact barriers that others use against me. Is every challenge I face racially motivated? No. Does racism still systematically exist? Hell yes.

I also see that this is STILL a world of Privilege for some and part of that privilege is due to race. I don't expect those benefiting from that privilege to be open and honest to see it, or recognize it, or care. I guess in your mind, the playing field has officially been leveled and we are all equal and treated accordingly?

A mentally challenged white man with a record would almost never have been shot by the police 20+ times if he were considered dangerous and thought to have had a weapon. Black life has never been valued as much, and it probably never will be. That is the truth, own it.

I'm disgusted when people think that issues are never "really about race" anymore, especially when others are dying or suffering as a result. Own your privilege...

paraderest

He was NOT shot 20 times. He was shot 10 times.

hamilton

Subject: Stop The Blame

Cops do shoot whites but that doesn't sell papers ,in 2000 four cops shot a deranged Jew in who was attacking them with a hammer.
This is another case of something happening that using common sense could have prevented.

Your statement on " black lives not having any value and that is the truth and I should own it "is ridiculous

Blacks shoot, stab and rape their own they don't need any help from us white people.
If you want a level playing field,work for it like every other group in this country.

I would like to share my Black experiences with you.

1) My older son slashed by a deranged black.

2) My younger son[ 11years old] was holding his brothers radio when a 19 year old black rode up on a bike and asked where 9th st. was,as he turned to direct him,he was punched in the face and as he desperatly held on to the radio the
punk put a knife to his neck and pulled the radio from his hands ,that was the bad news here comes the good news . My son hailed a passing Police car and had this asshole arrested. I hope his 9 months at Rikers was enjoyable.

3) My wife was robbed while shopping on Fulton St.

4) On a saturday after working half day I entered the train station at Wall&William St .As i passed through the turnstile i spotted a black standing by the stairs,thinking nothing of it i went to the lower level to catch a train.
There was a middle aged couple waiting on the platform, i walked about twenty feet passed them ,at that point i was approached by the black with a gun in his hand, he raised his hand and blurted"give it up" I told him you must be a moron there's a cop right behind you [there wasn't] he turned and said what you talking about,I repeated there's a cop behind him and when he turned his head this time I knocked the gun from his hand and hit him with a left hook knocking him on his ass. As I picked up the gun he flew up the stairs and on to the street.
I didn't call the cops because he was probably half way across the Brooklyn Bridge by the time I exited the station to try to locate him..
Did this make me a racist,no, it just made me distrustful .

anonymous

Hamilton, that's your sum total of "black experience"?
black = crime, in your life? that's all, nothing else?
That's what you're saying.

hamilton

Subject: Positive Black Experience

Anonymous wrote: Hamilton, that's your sum total of "black experience"?
black = crime, in your life? that's all, nothing else?
That's what you're saying.

********************************************************Not at all ,I hate to bust your ballon but ,I managed a department of blacks who were outstanding ,they were employees that handled their responsibilities in a professional manner.
When they found out it was my Birthday they called my wife and asked what they should buy for me.
When I received a better position at another firm and gave notice,everyone in the department called my wife and asked her to try to convince me to stay.
I was sorry to leave but I had to do what was good for my family.
We still keep in touch.

paraderest

Hamilton, as you picked up the gun he ran away? You didn't call the cops? What did you do with the gun?

hamilton

ParadeRest wrote: Hamilton, as you picked up the gun he ran away? You didn't call the cops? What did you do with the gun?

****************************************************************************
i dumped it in a sewer.

hamilton

ParadeRest wrote: Hamilton, as you picked up the gun he ran away? You didn't call the cops? What did you do with the gun?

************
I'm sorry I didn't answer the full question.
He didn't run up the stairs, he flew up them and was no where in sight when I exited the station.

I didn't call the cops, as I didn't want to go the station and fill out a time consuming report that most likely would not result in anyone being apprehended.

paraderest

But if police had been able to get a print off of the firearm you could have helped close many cases. Most gun crimes are not committed by first time offenders and your mugger probably has been arrested before.

Most of the time it does seem like a case is going nowhere until one day the missing puzzle piece appears. In this case the piece could have been you, Hamilton. You could have been responsible for getting a career criminal off of our streets. It sounds a little naive but...

hamilton

ParadeRest wrote: But if police had been able to get a print off of the firearm you could have helped close many cases. Most gun crimes are not committed by first time offenders and your mugger probably has been arrested before.

Most of the time it does seem like a case is going nowhere until one day the missing puzzle piece appears. In this case the piece could have been you, Hamilton. You could have been responsible for getting a career criminal off of our streets. It sounds a little naive but...

***************************
Most of the time these guns are passed around or even rented for the night and been handled by many leaving prints on prints,including mine, but you are right.
If the situation occurs again
i'll follow your advice.