Why is this happening in America?

sevenoneeighty

This is f*cking ridiculous.

Why doesn't The Housing Department simply step in, take over the building and provide adequate heating?

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING IN AMERICA AND WHY AREN'T OWNERS BEING ARRESTED FOR THIS? Why cant there be an episode of "COPS" where they break down the door of crooked landlords and arrest them with no shirt on in the middle of the night?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/nyregion/16building.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Without Heat in the Bronx, Making Do in the Cold
Todd Heisler/The New York Times

Kevin Hardy, left, with his brother, Vernon, and his dog, Lucky, in their apartment.



Article Tools Sponsored By
By MANNY FERNANDEZ
Published: December 16, 2007

Henry Wren’s home is a two-bedroom Bronx apartment. But he and his family do not live there so much as survive there.

The building is listed as one of the city's worst-maintained.

Their building, a five-story walk-up at 1277 Morris Avenue, has been without steady heat and hot water for months, he and other tenants said.

Residents dress for the outdoors even while indoors, wearing scarves and hats. They use the stove as if it were a fireplace, huddling around it with the burners aflame and the oven turned on. They wash up in the mornings with water heated in pots. At night, the temperature drops to the low 30s in the stairways and hovers in the 40s and 50s in the rooms.

In one living room, the television set is the only source of light after sunset, because the light fixture in the ceiling is broken. In one kitchen, a chunk of the ceiling has fallen. In a bedroom, a wide swath of greenish-black mold covers a wall. Space heaters sit on rickety milk crates and chairs. The roof leaks.

“I might as well just close down the house and go sleep on the steps,” said Mr. Wren, a 56-year-old newspaper hawker, who lives in Apartment 53 with his wife and son. They are among the roughly 25 men, women and children who live in the building.

Theirs is a dismal, surreal housing arrangement that seems as much out of Kafka as Dickens. While Mr. Wren and other tenants live heat-free, they also live rent-free. Several residents said they had not paid rent in months because of the conditions. No one uses a key to get into the building because the front door, which appears to be broken, is always open, day and night. No one seems to know who the landlord is these days.

And though the building has not had heat or hot water, it does have a super, a sad-faced man who lives in the building. The man, who did not want to give his name, says he keeps the place up as best he can, but he does not get paid. He said there had been no heat because the oil tank in the boiler room had been empty for weeks.

“I can’t face those people,” he said of the tenants. “They don’t have no service. It’s terrible, and there’s nothing I can do.”

On Friday, city housing officials delivered fuel to the building and sent a contractor to repair the heating system. By Saturday night the heat and hot water had been restored, though some tenants were only cautiously optimistic.

“I’m not keeping my hopes up,” said Kevin Hardy, 44, who lives in Apartment 43. “I don’t know how long it’s going to last.”

The 16-unit tan-brick building, built in 1916, was recently added to a list of the 200 most poorly maintained apartment buildings in New York City. According to the city’s Department of Housing Preservation and Development, the building has been cited for 181 of the most serious kinds of housing code violations in the past two years. The city says the landlord owes it $16,880 for emergency repairs including work done on defective staircases and sagging floors.

The owner of the building is a limited liability company called 711 Nostrand Avenue, according to city records. Lawyers for the housing agency have sued the company in Bronx Housing Court five times since 2005.

Three of those cases were for inadequate heat and hot water, and one is still pending; a hearing on that case is scheduled for Dec. 28. The agency sued the company for other violations in 2006, and a judge ordered it to pay $2,000 in civil penalties. Because many of the violations were never corrected, agency lawyers planned to ask the judge to impose additional fines at a separate hearing later this month, housing officials said. The city has already collected nearly $6,000 in court-ordered fines.

Housing officials appear to have had as much difficulty recently contacting the company as tenants say they have had. Owners of apartment buildings are required to register with the agency every year, but the last valid registration for 1277 Morris Avenue was made in March 2003, housing officials said. Since the building was put on the city’s worst cases list in November and is now part of a new program designed to crack down on negligent landlords, housing officials say they have been unable to contact representatives of 711 Nostrand Avenue LLC.

lilbangladesh

Well, it's hard to arrest landlords if you don't know who and where they are!

It looks like the city is doing the best it can in taking these people to court. I think the city should declare the property abandoned and take it over.

Of course, that might be exactly what the landlord is hoping for.

pitu

f*cking nightmare.

sevenoneeighty

lilbangladesh wrote: Well, it's hard to arrest landlords if you don't know who and where they are!

We found Sadam and his sons in Iraq.
Give me a break.

We find people we want to find and we provide the resources for those actions if it is important. Someone should be ARRESTED and put in jail for this.

No heat in winter in NYC in the US?
How can anyone take the US seriously whenever we make any proclamations about helping anyone else?

I seriously want to see these landlords tracked down with the same intensity as Brittney or Paris Hilton and have them heavily fined and jailed for depraved indifference. I'm so tired of this sh*t. - especially in New York. I'll bet I could find these people with a private investigator and less than 1 week.

If they cannot be found, seize the properties and provide heat to the tenants. If the NY times can get access to do a story, why cant someone step in and provide heat?

evilbert

it's pretty sad that people have become so reliant on the government for their basic needs. What happened to self-reliance?

Form a tenant's association.

Pool all the money they're not paying in rent (the article mentions they havn't paid rent in months)
Use the money to buy their own heating oil, fix the heating system and renovate their apartments, starting with the worst first.

It's an ideal situation for them - by forming an association they can be sure all the money is actually going towards their building and not vanishing into someone's pocket.

Now that the building's been slapped with huge fines, there's even less incentive for the real landlords to show up. Where do you think all the money for those fines goes? It goes into the city coffers, never to be seen again.

Sitting around in the cold for weeks waiting for nanny government to come and fix your problems for you is not the best way to go about it. I was always under the impression that New Yorkers were a self-relient bunch. Sad to see this isn't the case.


*edit*

Hey look - there's an apartment for rent in that building!

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/fee/512280247.html

Somebody call Tomas!

lydiabrunch

Evilbert wrote:
Pool all the money they're not paying in rent (the article mentions they havn't paid rent in months)
Use the money to buy their own heating oil, fix the heating system and renovate their apartments, starting with the worst first.

It's an ideal situation for them - by forming an association they can be sure all the money is actually going towards their building and not vanishing into someone's pocket.

Not so ideal, actually. Housing Court will not necessarily award money for repairs already made by tenants. I know there is a general principle that tenants have the "right" to make emergency repairs when their landlord doesn't, but in fact it's a gray area, legally - there are no guarantees they will get the money back. So at the end of it, they would still owe the rent (though if they didn't qualify for a major abatement, someone should seriously be killed) and their own money that went to repairs might not be recoverable.

lilbangladesh

Seven One Eighty, it's far easier for landlords to disappear because shoddy landlords frequently use shell corporations. So we know that the building is run by 711 Nostrand LLC, but WHO runs that corporation? We don't know. For all we know, it's being run by another corporation ad nauseum, so tracking down any individual person is tricky, at best. This gobbledygook makes it far easier to hide than being the one person in the country that everyone wants dead.

The city should just declare the building abandoned and take it over. If they find these guys, I'm sure they'll be prosecuted, but FINDING them is the hard part.

sevenoneeighty

Evilbert wrote: it's pretty sad that people have become so reliant on the government for their basic needs. What happened to self-reliance?

Form a tenant's association.

Pool all the money they're not paying in rent (the article mentions they havn't paid rent in months)
Use the money to buy their own heating oil, fix the heating system and renovate their apartments, starting with the worst first.

It's an ideal situation for them - by forming an association they can be sure all the money is actually going towards their building and not vanishing into someone's pocket.

Now that the building's been slapped with huge fines, there's even less incentive for the real landlords to show up. Where do you think all the money for those fines goes? It goes into the city coffers, never to be seen again.

Sitting around in the cold for weeks waiting for nanny government to come and fix your problems for you is not the best way to go about it. I was always under the impression that New Yorkers were a self-relient bunch. Sad to see this isn't the case.


*edit*

Hey look - there's an apartment for rent in that building!

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/fee/512280247.html

Somebody call Tomas!

I'm with you on self reliance.

However, there are LAWS on the books governing owners of property to maintain BASIC livable conditions. The owner of a property is NOT excused from obeying the law. In fact, the owner may be taking part in the "survival of the fittest" scheme in which he beleives, "screw them, let them get theirs, I got mine".

This is why we must have laws governing behaviors or we'll no longer be a society - we'll just individuals behaving badly, as humans do when left completely unchecked.

This same premise is why we have traffic signals on our roads.

Yes, the renters should mobilize on their own behalf, but many people don't have the knowledge or resources to think like you do. Perhaps this article will get them the help they need.

Some people do need help from others.
Surely, you've received help from someone in your life at one time or another. No one is completely self reliant.

I still say these people, their corporate entities, their properties and relatives can be found with a little effort.

Let's not make these people out to be Osama Bin Laden. They live and do business in America and not the mountains of Pakistan. A mediocre local news team running an expose piece could find them as we have seen on many " shame on you" type segments. I've watched enough "Dateline NBC" to know how it works myself.

lilbangladesh

Yeah, but there are also people who use shell corporations that incorporate overseas, and then tie themselves up with so much corporate structure (SHELL GAME, GET IT? har har) that they could pick up and set up business in another state before the law has time to catch up. I do think these people get caught eventually, but it can take years.

evilbert

SevenOneEighty wrote:
However, there are LAWS on the books governing owners of property to maintain BASIC livable conditions. The owner of a property is NOT excused from obeying the law. In fact, the owner may be taking part in the "survival of the fittest" scheme in which he beleives, "screw them, let them get theirs, I got mine".

Sure, I'm not disputing that. But in practice the property owner is not living up to expectations. Neither is the government, seeing as they still havn't tracked down the owner, and the tenants went without heat for weeks.

SevenOneEighty wrote: Yes, the renters should mobilize on their own behalf, but many people don't have the knowledge or resources to think like you do. Perhaps this article will get them the help they need.

The super lives in the building. He's the guy who orders the heating oil and hires contractors to fix the system when it breaks. The tenants have resources, seeing as they havn't paid rent in months. Why hasn't he stepped up and taken charge? Someone's gotta do it.

SevenOneEighty wrote: Some people do need help from others.
Surely, you've received help from someone in your life at one time or another. No one is completely self reliant.

Occasionally, yeah, but not from the government. I've never had a penny from any government department but they've extracted thousands from me over the years.

SevenOneEighty wrote: I still say these people, their corporate entities, their properties and relatives can be found with a little effort.

I don't doubt that they could. A follow-up on the Craigslist ad I posted would probably do it.

livetotravel

not for nutin' but this is exactly why I will thank CITGO and Hugo Chavez and Joe Kennedy this Christmas Season!

sevenoneeighty

Evilbert wrote:

[quote=SevenOneEighty]Some people do need help from others.
Surely, you've received help from someone in your life at one time or another. No one is completely self reliant.

Occasionally, yeah, but not from the government. I've never had a penny from any government department but they've extracted thousands from me over the years..

You've never had to call the police?
When you're harmed by a robber, you track them down yourself and administer justice like Bronson or Eastwood?

Social Security System, Department of Buildings, Child Protective Services, Department of Environmental Protection?

When your house is on fire, you don't call the Fire Department?
EMS? You build your own Schools? Ever been involved with court system directly or indirectly? Do you pave your own roads and repair your own bridges and tunnels? We pay taxes for a reason.

No, the system(s) listed above are far from perfect, but there is a concept in place to protect people at the minimal level. We can debate the many flaws in each, but the idea that you are not protected or don't use government is not accurate - you are using it right now. We can debate the imperfections of the system itself in another forum.

But more to the point, no the government is NOT your babysitter nor is it there to provide for you specifically. But when you are wronged by someone or they are not holding to a legally binding contract, there is a system in place to protect people and to provide a means to resolve the dispute.

All I'm saying is, someone is breaking a contract and/or law and needs to be held accountable.

evilbert

SevenOneEighty wrote:
You've never had to call the police?

nope

Social Security System,

nope. I'd rather that one be disbanded

Department of Buildings,

nope

Child Protective Services,

nope

Department of Environmental Protection?

nope

When your house is on fire, you don't call the Fire Department?

never had to

EMS?

private medical insurance

You build your own Schools?

private schooling for my kids

Ever been involved with court system directly or indirectly?

nope

Do you pave your own roads and repair your own bridges and tunnels?

Doh! you got me on one!
But seriously, they're services. They're not paying for my basic needs. Like rent.

All I'm saying is, someone is breaking a contract and/or law and needs to be held accountable.

Sure they do. But my point was that sitting in the cold waiting for the government to come and rescue you by buying heating oil for you is not the smartest thing in the world.

sevenoneeighty

With respect to the above list, can you say the same for everyone in your family? Your parents? All of your friends? And you never know, you or someone you know may need them one day. I don't make the distinction between government "services" or assistance like you - I see them as being related, not completely separate. They come from the same "pots": from taxes and administered by government. the infrastructure of the internet service that you are using is in part or whole paid for by "government" subsidy...

Ever take your kids to the Zoo, A municipal or national park, A museum? Were they all privately owned? Hey, entertain your own kids!! Stop depending on the government, Evilbert!!

This isn't just a basic service is it? Has you entire life been privatized - in your own mind? Do you feel the same about corporations that receive money or tax breaks from the government or is your contempt reserved only for poor and/or uneducated people and single mothers in the Bronx and Harlem? But this whole part of the "arguement" is silly anyway. I'm not sure what the point is. No one is 100% completely self reliant in New York - unless you live in Staten Island or something.

Sometimes housing is a basic need for some people which is why the government also builds housing. Not everyone has the upbringing, education, insight or opportunities that you may have had (earned or provided). Sometimes it's hard to be empathetic so I get it.

"Why cant those people think like ME!!"?

No one should wait around for the government (I don't think that is an accurate or fair description of the whole story happening here either), but they should have a reasonable expectation of basic protections per the local or federal government and laws.

Do you have any opinion of what the building owners should do or provide?

evilbert

Jeez...what an emotional response! :P

All I'm saying is that it's a bad idea to be reliant on the government for your personal well-being. They usually fuck it up. Not sure how parks and zoos came into the discussion - they're not required for my personal wellbeing.

Do you have any opinion of what the building owners should do or provide?

Apparently they're responsible for the upkeep of the building, including heat, hot water and general repairs. They arn't doing that. The next level of responsibility is you, the tenant. Fix the heating yourself and deduct costs from the rent, which is perfectly legal and will hold up in any court.

The landlords in this case seem to have disappeared. Maybe their company is insolvent. Maybe they don't have the money for repairs. Who knows? Bottom line is that they're not doing their job. Either you, as a tenant, do it yourself or wait around for the government to do it. It really is that simple.

As for liability, Phillip Abraham appears to be a real person and not MIA. Go get your checkbook, Mr Abraham. As a partner you're still liable.

sevenoneeighty

Evilbert wrote: Jeez...what an emotional response! :P

All I'm saying is that it's a bad idea to be reliant on the government for your personal well-being. They usually fuck it up. Not sure how parks and zoos came into the discussion - they're not required for my personal wellbeing.

Do you have any opinion of what the building owners should do or provide?

Apparently they're responsible for the upkeep of the building, including heat, hot water and general repairs. They arn't doing that. The next level of responsibility is you, the tenant. Fix the heating yourself and deduct costs from the rent, which is perfectly legal and will hold up in any court.

The landlords in this case seem to have disappeared. Maybe their company is insolvent. Maybe they don't have the money for repairs. Who knows? Bottom line is that they're not doing their job. Either you, as a tenant, do it yourself or wait around for the government to do it. It really is that simple.

As for liability, Phillip Abraham appears to be a real person and not MIA. Go get your checkbook, Mr Abraham. As a partner you're still liable.

Emotional?
Not all all, just purely on point.
Perhaps you were simply having an emotional reaction to my post?

FYI, GOVERNMENT supplies the funding (part or in whole) for museums, parks , zoos and even libraries that you may take your children. So, ALL of us, in some way receive more than just "basic services" from government upon further examination of our own lives (directly and indirectly). Since you stated ever using the other services I listed above, I figured I would mention a few more specifically in our PH/PS that you probably HAVE used.

I feel bad for those folks living there and it would be great if they could pool resources and form a co-op or buy the building somehow. People in certain community boards don't have the financial, legal or educational resources or capital to buys buildings. In the mean time, it doesn't seem right that they should freeze to death while trying to figure out a plan of action. Seriously, I hope the article will bring the right attention to their situation.

The tenants need legal representation immediately for the formation of a co-op and/or legal action against the owners of the building. They also need a management company to run the building properly and in the interim the NYCHA may need to take over to keep someone from dying.

caseopele

Evilbert, I would love to live in your world. It must be awesome to be you. Never needing anything from anyone, being completely self-reliant.

Do you believe in magic? You must because the government couldn't have had a hand in any of these things!

Roads were built and are being maintained.

Quality of food assured how?

Safe medicine

Those guns you like so much? Why do you have the right to bear arms again?

Who's making sure the water you drink is ok? Or keeping you safe from chemical and toxic waste?

Don't like relying on the government? Get rid of all of that money you use to stay so self-reliant.

Forget about getting any mail through the USPS, you must get everything delivered by FedEx or UPS.

You must have gone to private schools and I'm sure your parents never used any government "services" either.

Alas, I am but a mere mortal so I know I'm leaving some things out.

Of course you won't need to call the police or the fire department or need an ambulance. I'm sure you've planned for every possible accident or tragedy so that you'll never need any handouts from anyone. Sounds lovely, where do I sign up?


ETA: Oh, and those people with no heat? It's totally their fault, they just didn't plan appropriately and that super is a f*ck up who could order more oil if he really wanted to. He's just being spiteful to make the poor landlords look bad.

lilbangladesh

If these people had resources, they wouldn't be living there in the first place! Heck, they wouldn't be living in the Bronx at all. Even if they did band together, if you never owned property before, it would be damn difficult to figure out where to go to get what you need, and that is ASSUMING that there is enough money pooled to get it. The super is responsible for making sure oil is delivered by being there when the oil man comes. He is NOT responsible for purchasing the oil in the first place! I'm willing to bet that the super is just as poor as the rest of the tenants.

Evilbert: no museums, libraries or cultural institutions of any kind because of the chance of benefiting from gubmint dollars? Geesh, I'd hate to be one of your kids. They sound deprived.

I've had a really hard time getting myself established and I come from a middle class background with access to resources that these people don't have. I think the better part of valor in this situation is to reserve judgment.

evilbert

caseopele wrote: Evilbert, I would love to live in your world. It must be awesome to be you. Never needing anything from anyone, being completely self-reliant.

It's wonderful. Widdle birdies singing in the trees and fluffy bunnies hopping in the fields. Hippity hop, Hippity hop. The sun shines all night too.

caseopele wrote: Do you believe in magic? You must because the government couldn't have had a hand in any of these things!

I do believe in magic! It's wonderful - you've just gotta close your eyes, tap your heels together 3 times and say "there's no place like home" and a nice man from the government shows up with a check! It's grea....oh, wait. That's the other people I was thinking of.

caseopele wrote: Those guns you like so much? Why do you have the right to bear arms again?

Because a group of smart guys who founded this country realised that people needed to be able to defend themselves from bad people AND from the government themselves. So they wrote this thing called a "Constitution" which clearly stated that the government wouldn't be allowed to stop citizens from having guns, no matter how much the big-government wusses cried and compalined.

Jeez...sometimes I worry about the education system here. I'm not even American and I know that much! Go read a book or something

caseopele wrote: Who's making sure the water you drink is ok? Or keeping you safe from chemical and toxic waste?

LMAO! It's so easy to get you liberals all confused. The environmental Protection board is a government service that we, as citizens, expect to be run correctly from the money we pay in taxes. It's a "sociatal" coverage, not an "individual" one. Do tell me you know what the difference is!

caseopele wrote: Forget about getting any mail through the USPS, you must get everything delivered by FedEx or UPS.

I wish I could. Might stop USPS losing my checks every other month.

caseopele wrote: You must have gone to private schools and I'm sure your parents never used any government "services" either.

Nope, I went to public school. My kids won't though - I'd like them to get better than a 3rd-rate education, which they would get at a NYC public school.

caseopele wrote: Alas, I am but a mere mortal so I know I'm leaving some things out.

It's ok - none of us are perfect. You yourself have that badly-jerking knee and chip on your shoulder that you should get looked at

caseopele wrote: ETA: Oh, and those people with no heat? It's totally their fault, they just didn't plan appropriately and that super is a f*ck up who could order more oil if he really wanted to. He's just being spiteful to make the poor landlords look bad.

No, he's just being fucking useless. Can't get the staff these days. Bet he's an immigrant! Probably one of those lazy mexicans or something. Mind you, he'd be more bothered by the cold then, right?


INTERNETS. SERIOUS BUSINESS

evilbert

lilbangladesh wrote: If these people had resources, they wouldn't be living there in the first place!

They usually pay rent, right? Now they're not, because their heating's gone off and nobody knows where the landlord is. So even if everything was tickety-boo there'd be nowhere to send a check to. So they have money they would have been paying in rent still in the bank, right?

So there's your resources.

lilbangladesh wrote: Heck, they wouldn't be living in the Bronx at all.

You ever been? There's some quite nice places in the Bronx. It's not all ghetto, ya know

lilbangladesh wrote: Even if they did band together, if you never owned property before, it would be damn difficult to figure out where to go to get what you need, and that is ASSUMING that there is enough money pooled to get it. The super is responsible for making sure oil is delivered by being there when the oil man comes. He is NOT responsible for purchasing the oil in the first place! I'm willing to bet that the super is just as poor as the rest of the tenants.

There's money avaliable - the rent money. Jeez...are you guys even paying attention?!?! Seriously people, think about it!!

As for where you get it....well, there's this book, see. It's got yellow pages....and....well.....in it, there's a big list of businesses all listed alphabetically. You look under "H" for Heating oil and lo and behold....there's a list of companies who will deliver it right to your door!!

There's also this internet thing too.....but maybe that's a bit of a strech?

lilbangladesh wrote: Evilbert: no museums, libraries or cultural institutions of any kind because of the chance of benefiting from gubmint dollars? Geesh, I'd hate to be one of your kids. They sound deprived.

What are you blathering about now? :?

lilbangladesh wrote: I've had a really hard time getting myself established and I come from a middle class background with access to resources that these people don't have. I think the better part of valor in this situation is to reserve judgment.

But this is a discussion board. It's where people come to discuss things, ya see? Hell, I don't know what's going on there, but I can at least have an opinion.

Bloody liberals. You guys really arn't all that interested in opinions that differ from your own are you?

lilbangladesh

For someone who blathers on about the evils of government and how everyone should just be totally self-reliant, I find it IRONIC that you're using the INTERNET to propagate this, since the internet was invented at the instigation of the government so that communications may be maintained in the case of nuclear war.

evilbert

lilbangladesh wrote: For someone who blathers on about the evils of government and how everyone should just be totally self-reliant, I find it IRONIC that you're using the INTERNET to propagate this, since the internet was invented at the instigation of the government so that communications may be maintained in the case of nuclear war.

LMAO! Everyone knows Al Gore invented the internet.

Well, not really. It was universities and developers all over the world. The US government didn't have much of a hand in it beyond Arpanet in the 1970s

Dude - just give up on the comeback attempts. It's getting silly now.

sevenoneeighty

This is getting crazy.

Evilbert, I got love for you man and I am not even very liberal if you check my postings.

But with the Borat avatar and the name 'Evilbert' from web fame and your proclamations about not using government, etc, it's hard to tell if you are just trying to be provocative or if you are serious.

But whatever, its only a web forum and we come here to have fun.
So you cant be surprised if otherwise reasonable people respond to your comments, can you? I like having these kinds of conversations.

I think this is more of the point LB ( female BTW) was making though with respect to the internet; she never said the government invented the internet though: Government support helps the internet thrive and grow... Al Gore? That is old news and it is well known that he was misrepresented and even misquoted.

There is government involvement in the growth of the internet and other services, including utilities and cable lines - yes, private companies lay these lines and sometimes with the help of government subsidy and tax breaks, etc. too..."Liberal" companies like AT&T, Verizon and even cable companies with Fiber Optic lines receive help, cooperation and even money from the government for their infrastructure....

It's kinda like the government paying their 'rent' for them, eh? :roll:
Like I said, I got love for you man (BTW: Cohen is killing off "Borat")

http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/newpath/chap2.html

The Role of Government in the Evolution of the Internet
ROBERT E. KAHN

This paper discusses the role of government in the continuing evolution of the Internet. From its origins as a U.S. government research project, the Internet has grown to become a major component of network infrastructure, linking millions of machines and tens of millions of users around the world. Although many nations are now involved with the Internet in one way or another, this paper focuses on the primary role the U.S. government has played in the Internet's evolution and discusses the role that governments around the world may have to play as it continues to develop.

Very little of the current Internet is owned, operated, or even controlled by governmental bodies. The Internet indirectly receives government support through federally funded academic facilities that provide some network-related services. Increasingly, however, the provision of Internet communication services, regardless of use, is being handled by commercial firms on a profit-making basis.

This situation raises the question of the proper long-term role for government in the continued evolution of the Internet. Is the Internet now in a form where government involvement should cease entirely, leaving private-sector interests to determine its future? Or, does government still have an important role to play? This paper concludes that government can still make a series of important contributions. Indeed, there are a few areas in which government involvement will be vital to the long-term well-being of the Internet....

lilbangladesh

It's true. Without the original infrastructure of ARPANET, the internet wouldn't exist. Universities may have developed it into the internet for educational purposes (many of which were PUBLIC universities funded by government dollars!), but the original intent WAS military.

Furthermore, there has always been a close relationship between the military and educational establishments, at least since the fifties. Ever hear of the military-industrial complex? THAT'S what they're talking about.

I have a feeling that Evilbert thinks that we should rely entirely on hired mercenaries rather than our military forces in Iraq because PRIVATE IS ALWAYS GOOD!! :roll:

evilbert

SevenOneEighty wrote: This is getting crazy.

Evilbert, I got love for you man and I am not even very liberal if you check my postings.

But with the Borat avatar and the name 'Evilbert' from web fame and your proclamations about not using government, etc, it's hard to tell if you are just trying to be provocative or if you are serious.

I'm not really serious - I just get a kick out of ruffling feathers of clueless park slope liberals like lilbangladesh and caseopele. They both seem to have a very bad case of head-in-rectum and just make easy targets

For the record - I'm not one of those "no government" nutballs - I'd just like a lot less of it and more emphasis on personal responsibility. The origional article is a sad reflection on how so many Americans are dependant on Daddy Government for such basic needs as heating in winter.

But hey - it's a different opinion. I've found a hallmark of rabid liberals is that they're not really interested in opinions that differ from theirs (like how nobody's asked for mine so far). It's hard enough for them to handle people even having a different opinion, let alone understanding it!

lilbangladesh

You'd look less like an idiot if you actually scoped out your opposition. Not a park slope liberal. Don't live there. Can't afford to.

And I'm all for personal responsibility. Some government programs are just invasive and ought to go. That said, part of the function of government is to ENFORCE LAWS AND CONTRACTS. When someone signs a lease agreement with a landlord, one of things in that contract is that, unless otherwise stated, the landlord has to provide heat and upkeep to the building to make it an appropriate living environment. THE LANDLORD IS IN VIOLATION OF THIS CONTRACT AND THE LAW. In such a case, it is NOT the tenant's responsibility to remedy this and if the state steps in to correct this grievous default by the landlord, they are not playing Nanny State, but giving these tenants the protections they are entitled to expect UNDER THE LAW.

Unless you think all tenant protections are part of the Nanny State and ought to go. In which case, all a lease would have to say is Caveat Emptor.

caseopele

Wow, you have your head so far up your own ass. Park Slope liberal? What the f*ck are you smoking? You couldn't be farther from the truth. I know it's impossible for you to understand that not everyone has lived the life you have. You'll never get it unless the day comes when you need help because you can't help yourself. It doesn't just happen to people who made bad decisions and didn't plan their lives as well as you. Screw this, I feel like I'm arguing with a four year old.