Operation Impact to Return to Crown Heights

form

With all the talk of how much comes out of taxes, health insurance perks, etc. Just think about it yourself:

What would be the minimum you'd be willing to get paid to get shot at on any given night?

I don't see the profit being so good if you get shot 6 months on the job. Myself - if I had to go out nightly to wander some neighborhoods, I'd say 100k and I MIGHT think about it. Having a wife and kids? I'd have to go higher...

lilbangladesh

Being a cop comes with significant risks, but cops aren't getting shot at every night of the week! Not even here!

Maybe it was like that in the Bronx in the '70s, but not now.

The last cop that died in the 77, died in a domestic dispute with her fiance. Female cops (or any female, actually) are more likely to die in domestic disputes than shot by a criminal. There are plenty of cops in the NYPD who never end up shooting their gun. So while it's far from the safest job you could ever have, it's hardly the most dangerous either.


http://www.forbes.com/2002/09/03/0903worksafe.html

mr. met

yea, don't most cops never even use their guns?

stacey

lilbangladesh wrote: There are plenty of cops in the NYPD who never end up shooting their gun. So while it's far from the safest job you could ever have, it's hardly the most dangerous either.

They may not fire their gun often but they do have to arrest criminals who can take a swing at them, chasing down criminals, getting stuck by a needle while frisking, often they are in cars which speed down streets, having to mediate/intervene on domestic disturbances (which is by far the most dangerous), and lets not forget the emotional toll it takes on them. While I may not agree on how some cops handle themselves - it is still a VERY dangerous job. Im glad I do not have to deal with that on a day to day basis in my office.

carnivore

Form wrote: With all the talk of how much comes out of taxes, health insurance perks, etc. Just think about it yourself:

What would be the minimum you'd be willing to get paid to get shot at on any given night?

I don't see the profit being so good if you get shot 6 months on the job. Myself - if I had to go out nightly to wander some neighborhoods, I'd say 100k and I MIGHT think about it. Having a wife and kids? I'd have to go higher...

If you're going to bring the chance of getting shot into it, you need to compare it to working at a convenience store and driving a taxi, both of which have a higher chance of being shot on the job than a cop. Do you think they get paid more?

paraderest

Now compare this to our neighbors Nassau County...

From the Nassau County PD website...

-$34,000 Annual Starting Salary
-$91,737 after 8 years
-12% Night Differential
*These salaries do not include overtime earnings, shift differential, holiday pay and uniform allowance.
-10 paid holidays annually for the first two years increasing to 12 thereafter 18-26 sick days annually
-Health/Dental/Optical Plan premiums fully paid by Nassau County
-20 Year Non-Contributory 50% Retirement
-Tax Deferred Payroll Deducted Savings Plan (457 Deferred Compensation Plan)

There are a few things that apear to be better in NYC than in Nassau such as sick leave. Yes, NYCPD gives unlimited sick but in exchange for that you are a prisioner in your own home. You are not allowed out without permission from the "Sick Desk" and only for essential reasons such as child care, groceries, drug store trips and doctor visits. NYCPD officers are subject to home visits and calls to their house to verify that they are "in residence". They are also required to visit the Dept. Surgeon. This doctor does not actually provide care but only verifies that you may actually be sick or injured. I'd rather have my 18-26 days annually that can be "banked" until needed.

The county fully pays health/dental/optical instead of the union be responsible for dental/optical which ultimately comes out of the officer's pocket. The county makes a complete pension contribution as opposed the city's "shared" contribution. NCPD only requires 32 college credits instead of 60. Oh, and that salary isn't too bad!

carnivore

Of course in Nassau County, when someone reported a crime, they might not tolerate a response like "What did you expect? You moved to Nassau County."

mr. met

i dont know...hempstead can get pretty nasty after dark...

form

lilbangladesh wrote: Being a cop comes with significant risks, but cops aren't getting shot at every night of the week! Not even here!

I wasn't implying that they get shot at every night - just that, as a police officer, any given night you have a greater chance of being shot at then most people.

I just wanted to remind people that, even though the pay MIGHT be adequate for a teacher or insurance salesman or whatever - the risk of the job makes the topic different. Much like the memorial thread for the fireman who lost his life last week - these people voluntarily run into a burning building and chase after the person actively firing his gun. This makes us all feel safer that someone else is looking out for our backs.

The rest of us with other jobs tend to run away.

king without a crown

I think Daver and Bangledesh should elope!!!

wirenut

They do get paid more in Nassau
But as Gulliani pointed out when he was mayor, that's one of the reasons why Nassau almost filed for bankruptcy (note I am not a Gullliani fan)

Thery spend money like water and the real estate taxes in Nassau reflect that

carnivore

wirenut wrote: They do get paid more in Nassau
But as Gulliani pointed out when he was mayor, that's one of the reasons why Nassau almost filed for bankruptcy (note I am not a Gullliani fan)

Thery spend money like water and the real estate taxes in Nassau reflect that

Nassau also has the highest paid police force in the country. Maybe a comparison to the median officer's salary nationwide would be more appropriate.

mr. met

ha, good point, carnivore

paraderest

Only if you compare the median cost of living nation wide.


Suffolk County Police

SALARY
2007 starting base salary for a Police Officer is $57,811. With five (5) years of service, the base salary is $97,958*. These figures do not include paid benefits.

BENEFITS
Full salary and benefits during entire training period.

Paid family dental, optical and medical plans.

Longevity pay increments begin after five (5) years of service.

Fifteen (15) paid vacation days first year of service, increasing to twenty-seven (27) days after five (5) years of service.

Thirteen (13) sick leave days first year of service, increasing to twenty-six (26) days after the first three (3) years of service. Unused sick leave days are cumulative.
Three (3) paid personal days first year of service, increasing to five (5) days after three (3) years of service.

Night shift payments.

All officers receive thirteen (13) paid holidays.

All uniforms and equipment are supplied by the Department. A yearly uniform cleaning allotment is provided to each officer.

Non-contributory pension plan. Members are eligible for retirement after twenty (20) years of service at 50% of three (3) year final average salary. Vested retirement plan after five (5) years.

carnivore

How does the NYPD pay compare to departments in other urban areas with comparable costs of living, like SF?

paraderest

San Francisco pays theirs officers well. Starting pay is $70,733 and top pay is $94,829. I don't see the pay steps or how long till top pay but I'll keep looking.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/12/BAGFJQDMQU1.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

carnivore

ParadeRest wrote: San Francisco pays theirs officers well. Starting pay is $70,733 and top pay is $94,829. I don't see the pay steps or how long till top pay but I'll keep looking.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/12/BAGFJQDMQU1.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

That's a much better argument for raising the pay here than comparing us to Nassau County.

daver

Wow, SF is high! Doing a quick search of major cities, Atlanta, Philadelphia, etc. I am finding that they tend to top out in the $50s. NYC goes higher than that, which I certainly think is justified, it is a more expensive place. I think the big issue here is starting pay. The salary for academy training is laughable, and needs to be raised. I also believe the first few years of salary are too low and should be raised also. What is the current max in the NYPD? Off hand, I would say that the training salary should be somewhere in the mid-to-upper $30s, maybe $35-38k? And that upon completion of training something more like $42-44k+ would be a more reasonable starting point to go up from yearly.

But that is just my gut feeling based on the current state of things. I would certainly entertain arguments for higher pay. I doubt I would agree with anything lower.

paraderest

Carnivore wrote: [quote=ParadeRest]San Francisco pays theirs officers well. Starting pay is $70,733 and top pay is $94,829. I don't see the pay steps or how long till top pay but I'll keep looking.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/12/BAGFJQDMQU1.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

That's a much better argument for raising the pay here than comparing us to Nassau County.

But when presenting an argument to PERB (binding arbitration) the Taylor Law states that the salaries need to be compared to those of neighboring or surrounding (i forget the exact wording) departments. I don't think that SF is either. There also isn't as much of a problem with NYPD cops leaving to work in SF. There have been many NYPD cops who left for Nassau, Suffolk, MTA, Port Authority, New York State Police and various local police departments in the area. It affects recruitment and retention. A sergeant from the 77 just resigned a few weeks ago becasue he was starting the Nassau County Police Academy.

homeowner

This issue is pretty complicated. This is an article from 2006 regarding the contract negotiations at that time. Its clear that the city has tried to deal with the starting salaries, but for reasons that aren't apparent in the news the parties can't seem to reach any agreement.

City Offers $10,000 Raise for Police Recruits
By DIANE CARDWELL
Published: May 19, 2006

The Bloomberg administration proposed a raise of roughly $10,000 for new police recruits at a bargaining session with the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association yesterday, according to the terms of an offer provided by administration officials.

Under the offer, new academy cadets would be paid at an annual rate of $36,123 for the first six months, up from $25,100, and then at a rate of $39,735, up from $32,700. The base salary would tick up each year until hitting $63,309 after five and a half years, up from $59,588.

The city has been sharply criticized for the relatively low starting pay for police officers, which union officials maintain is below the levels in surrounding areas and even in much smaller cities.

To compensate for the higher pay, the new officers would receive a less generous package in other areas than those already on the force, including fewer vacation days and paid holidays and less money toward their retirement until they have served five and a half years.

Officers already on the force who have reached that mark would receive two retroactive raises totaling about 6 percent, which is in line with the raises negotiated by the city with the other uniformed unions, officials said. The contract would cover the period from Aug. 1, 2004, through July 31, 2006, and the pay scale for new recruits would affect those starting July 1.

The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association did not reject the offer immediately but said it was inadequate considering the risks to officers' lives and too low to solve the department's recruiting problems.

"Once again the city expects police officers to pay for their own raises while failing to close the gap at all levels of salary between New York City police and surrounding communities, from entry level to critical top pay," said Patrick J. Lynch, the union president. "This offer fails to consider the dangers that we face above and beyond virtually any other municipal employee."

Negotiations between the city and the police officers' union have been particularly bitter over the last few cycles, going to arbitration for two contracts in a row. In the last settlement, reached in June 2005, officers received a raise of more than 10 percent over two years, higher than many other municipal unions and more than the Bloomberg administration wanted to grant.

But among the most controversial elements was a decision to lower starting salaries for recruits to $25,100 for the first six months while they train at the police academy. Union officials said that amount put its officers on food stamps, a notion that an administration official dismissed yesterday as false.

"With the P.B.A. basically making up horror stories about cops being forced to go on food stamps, then they'd be hard pressed to explain why they would pass up a $10,000 raise for starting officers," said a city official who was granted anonymity to discuss a continuing negotiation. "This is a solution that raises the salary of new police officer recruits, and also gives current police officers a raise consistent with what other uniformed services have had."

Union officials saw it differently. "It does nothing to address the critical recruitment and retention problem caused by dramatically higher police salaries in other departments," Mr. Lynch said. "Prospective recruits won't be fooled and veteran cops won't be satisfied."

[/b]

mr. met

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

lilbangladesh

The $10,000 raise for training officers is a good start and would put salaries back in line with surrounding areas. The PBA would be stupid to ignore this.

However, it wouldn't be the first time that the PBA shot themselves in the foot.

daver

"With the P.B.A. basically making up horror stories about cops being forced to go on food stamps, then they'd be hard pressed to explain why they would pass up a $10,000 raise for starting officers," said a city official who was granted anonymity to discuss a continuing negotiation."

I agree that this sort of thing does a disservice to the officers. We've experienced this in this very thread, where it was posted that officers making $32,700/yr didn't have enough money to eat. I think it is pretty obvious that these folks need a raise, but these horror stories that are easily proven false make it simple to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

pitu

In response to another thread about crime, I set up a thread to talk about crime reporting in our little used Brooklyn and Beyond board . . .
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=412842#412842

lilbangladesh

daver wrote:

"With the P.B.A. basically making up horror stories about cops being forced to go on food stamps, then they'd be hard pressed to explain why they would pass up a $10,000 raise for starting officers," said a city official who was granted anonymity to discuss a continuing negotiation."

I agree that this sort of thing does a disservice to the officers. We've experienced this in this very thread, where it was posted that officers making $32,700/yr didn't have enough money to eat. I think it is pretty obvious that these folks need a raise, but these horror stories that are easily proven false make it simple to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yeah, I make less money than that and I have no problem eating well. I just made myself a bean stew that will last me a week and probably cost me about $15 to make. (And it's got everything in there, so it's probably as complete as you can get nutrition-wise.) $25,100 is ridiculously low for the difficulty of the job and it does make things financially tight, but it's not a starvation wage either. Hell, U.S. soldiers make a hell of a lot less and they HAVE to go on food stamps if they have a family. (That's a shanda in itself!) Whereas I *think* anything over 20K puts you over the food stamp limit. Exaggeration rarely helps a cause. This is sort of what I meant by the PBA shooting itself in the foot. I'm on the cops' side on the pay issue, but I find Pat Lynch to be completely obnoxious and probably ineffective. Am I the only one?

lucille

what's a shanda?

paraderest

Keep in mind that a few thousand off the top goes to uniforms and leather goods. In the academy the recruits have to pay for their academy uniforms, gun belts and accesories, gym uniforms including several pairs of high quality running shoes, cpr equipment, nightsticks, expandable batons, traffic vests, puncture resistant gloves, etc...A few months later they are looking at buying a dress uniform made up of wool pants, a summer blouse (like a sports coat) and a reefer coat (heavy winter coat). Then they are about to graduate and they have to buy a new set of uniforms for patrol including shirts both short sleeve and long(they wear grey shirts in the academy), black boots, possibly cargo pants, trauma plates (go inside vest for additional protection against blunt trauma, edged weapons and gunshots), turtlenecks, 3/4 jacket for the days in Feb. when they are standing on a foot post, etc...Don't forget an off duty firearm that also serves as a back-up weapon on patrol. None of these things are provided by the police department.

carnivore

ParadeRest wrote: Keep in mind that a few thousand off the top goes to uniforms and leather goods. In the academy the recruits have to pay for their academy uniforms, gun belts and accesories, gym uniforms including several pairs of high quality running shoes, cpr equipment, nightsticks, expandable batons, traffic vests, puncture resistant gloves, etc...A few months later they are looking at buying a dress uniform made up of wool pants, a summer blouse (like a sports coat) and a reefer coat (heavy winter coat). Then they are about to graduate and they have to buy a new set of uniforms for patrol including shirts both short sleeve and long(they wear grey shirts in the academy), black boots, possibly cargo pants, trauma plates (go inside vest for additional protection against blunt trauma, edged weapons and gunshots), turtlenecks, 3/4 jacket for the days in Feb. when they are standing on a foot post, etc...Don't forget an off duty firearm that also serves as a back-up weapon on patrol. None of these things are provided by the police department.

Isn't that what the uniform allowance is for?

paraderest

A uniform allowance is great but it isn't seen until Dec. If you get hired in January you are out that money for almost a year. It's also only a thousand bucks and it's taxed. It'll take a few years of uniform allowances to make back that money and in the meantime the uniforms that they have aren't been kept up. There are still dry cleaning expenses, alterations, replacing damaged uniforms. Boots don't last that long, especially when you're walking a footpost.

lilbangladesh

In that case, then, maybe it isn't such an exaggeration that recruits can't afford to eat. The reason why I'm able to eat well on my paltry salary is that I'm not spending huge gobs of money on uniform and laundry expenses.

I had a job as a waiter in a deli (not equivalent, I know) but the expenses associated with uniform upkeep pretty much kept me from breaking even. I definitely did NOT eat well at that time. Deciding between food or sanitary supplies is not a fun decision.