Ratner Outbids Extell Has A Real Partnership w/Communi

anonymous

FCRC's Bid Package for Railyards is $492 million while Extell's is for $300 million.

FCRC's Package includes: $182 million for the construction of a new Vanderbilt Yard; $20 million for Environmental Clean-up of the site; $29 million for improvements for mass transit facilities at the site; $25.4 million in operating expenses for MTA; and $23 million--- Extell does not factor in any of these issues in its bid.

FCRC has come out to the community over 40 times to present their plans to and discuss their project with the community. In addition, FCRC has committed to a legally binding community benefits agreement.

jamesondean

Subject: Ratner plans to BUILD more than Extell, and that's bad.

Anonymous wrote: FCRC's Bid Package for Railyards is $492 million while Extell's is for $300 million.

FCRC's Package includes: $182 million for the construction of a new Vanderbilt Yard; $20 million for Environmental Clean-up of the site; $29 million for improvements for mass transit facilities at the site; $25.4 million in operating expenses for MTA; and $23 million--- Extell does not factor in any of these issues in its bid.

FCRC has come out to the community over 40 times to present their plans to and discuss their project with the community. In addition, FCRC has committed to a legally binding community benefits agreement.

Anonymous posting on this issue is akin to trolling, but here's a brief response anyway: FCR plans to wipe out two blocks of our neighborhood in order to grab the land it wants for development, by eminent domain if necessary. The Extell bid is--by design--smaller in scale, eschewing the skyscrapers FCR would BUILD in favor of buildings which match the character of the neighborhood. A smaller development also means less traffic, and with the number of traffic accidents in this area involving pedestrians and cyclists, that's a good thing.

The Extell bid *for the MTA land itself* is three times as large as FCR, pointing to the sweetheart nature of the deal FCR has attempted. You will hear FCR proponents like the anonymous author of this thread talk about how much more affordable housing its project will bring, but this comes at the price of a development which would destroy the character of the neighborhood, displace families, and put a major sports arena in an area which is not set up to handle the traffic.

--for those not familiar with this issue, BUILD is the acronym used by a group which supports the FCR project.

steve austin

The most important issue regarding the competing plans should be eminent domain. Regardless of whether you are liberal or conservative, pro-development or NIMBY, poor or rich, black or white, you should understand the implications of government taking your property for a value that it deems fair and selling it to a private entity. There is no limit to the potential abuse. But all you need to do to understand the issue is close your eyes and imagine the same thing happening to you. I am disgusted that people ignore the importance of this issue and even more disgusted by those who seek to profit from using their influence to take the property of others.

anonymous

Steve,

There are multiple issues here. Keep in mind that this is the bid for MTA land we are talking about and who has made the better offer. Your comments/concerns regarding the overall projects are important to hear but these other issues should not be used to determine who is offering more to the MTA for the land.

The MTA has a responsibility to sell this land for the most possible. This may come in the form of cash, free construction, or who knows what else. Whatever deal is the best for the MTA is the one they should take and eminent domain should not affect their decision.

Regarding the other figures that Ratner claims it will spend, personally I'm interested in learning more about how much of this will be done by Extell and what portion of it is specific to Rater's plan vs. the Extell plan. If these items are only needed by Ratner because of the larger scope of the plan then I don't think they should be considered. The MTA needs to try to determine the total cost of these projects to them and how much of this cost they will be on the hook for, if any. This is not going to be easy.

anonymous

Subject: Brooklyn Paper article on this issue

I remembered seeing an article about this in the Brooklyn Papers, which discussed this issue. Check out:
http://www.brooklynpapers.com/html/issues/_vol28/28_25/28_25nets1.html

The article points out that the funds will be used for RELOCATION, not simply an UPGRADE of the railyards. Brooklyn Papers comes to the conclusion that this would then permit FCR to justify taking of private land by eminent domain for "public use" since the railyards might be relocated under what is currently private land. When asked about the relocation plan, the FCR spokesperson would not explain why the relocation plan was necessary.

Perhaps FCR met with the public forty times, but they never held a meeting for the general public in Prospect Heights.

anonymous

GUEST, which part of the following page don't you understand?

http://www.dddb.net/bids

---

Ben, the B. Papers article's point is that the public use will be a revamped rail yard. Something we are all clamoring for, not.

regardless, the Court's Kelo decision, plus pending legislation in Albany will make it, I believe, impossible for Ratner to use eminent domain.

anonymous

Subject: Brooklyn Sold...

"They trying to confuse you, making it hard to follow this,
Capitalism and democracy are not synonymous.
You swallow propaganda like a birth control pill,
Selling your soul to the eye on the back of the dollar bill."
-Immortal Technique

Brooklyn,

I always feel like I'm preaching to the ignorant (the majority of this city's leaders), and then I see Al Sharpton pop-up in the news and I know that the shit has truly hit the fan. I'm not going to discuss the details (and there are a lot of 'em) about the Brooklyn Yards fiasco... but, I will say all of this:

- I'm a person of color, raised in a low-income Black/Latino Community just in case anyone wants to question my POV. Raised quaker (that's Christian philosphy without the heirarchy), I went to a progressive high school, then college, served my community doing social justice work and now continue working with youth thru the progressive (not commercial) hip-hop community as an activist and perfroming artist.

-I have never in my life encountered such former-activists like Reverend Daughtry, Bertha Lewis or James Caldwell turn desperate sell-outs to their own culture by making undemocratic deals with first-rate capitalists like Bruce Ratner and business tycoon Michael Bloomberg. Their relationship stinks of class-cronyism, good ole' devide-and-conquer, but best of all, exposes the truth of the elitists' vision of the American Dream for us: Sell 'em Basketball, Capitalist Rap, McDonalds, Target, and a Luxury Crib and they'll forget about the economic and political slavery that's inherent in every one of these things.

-We need to create a plan that guarantees maximized (not minimal) housing for income-challenged residents, 100% living wage careers, and no-return investments for small businesses. No exceptions, and no crumbs either, which is exactly what Ratner is handing out.

-Since when has a basketball arena solved the crisis of housing, fair-labor jobs, equality, and democracy? Maybe you think modern basketball has advanced black culture (sure, it has), but the current game/tradition ( the one coming out of the Harlem Ren, that is) was bought and sold like every other commodity that came from the streets, and often acts as a vehicle to continue the cycle of sterotypes against people of color. So, some cat from the hood gets paid excessive cash, and is a celebrity, but at the price of selling sneakers from sweatshops, fucking rap-video extras, and driving cars and wearing jewelry from countries that once enslaved his ancestors... What I'm saying is, if pro-basketball kept it real, for "the people", front row seats would cost $5-10, players/mentors would promote progressive, not capitalist products and owners would spend their money renovating and funding every school and court in every major city across the country. That's advancement, that's justice, that's when I could truly be proud of basketball.

-On the other hand, the tax-paid, yet private basketball arena from a billionaire-developer from Cleveland is a corporate band-aid applied to a diseased socio-economical operation started by rich, white men who now smooch their urban counterparts with the hopes of tasting so good, they'll go to bed with them. We would all be better off if we worked with activists/politicians who support democratic principles first instead of crony capitalists who hand-pick puppet representatives to help guide their greedy dirty hands around our necks.

Act right Brooklyn,
the enemy

anonymous

Um, looks like even Extell likes the stadium:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/nyregion/26brooklyn.html?pagewanted=print

jamesondean

mr underhill wrote: Um, looks like even Extell likes the stadium:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/nyregion/26brooklyn.html?pagewanted=print

I really hope it's a political move not meant to be taken. I don't want to have to switch my opinion of Extell from White Knight to Robber Baron Scumbag so quickly--even if Extell wouldn't make any money on the deal, its still would be a sellout considering the genesis of its interest in bidding came from DDDB's call for alternative bids.

escap

mr underhill wrote: Um, looks like even Extell likes the stadium:

I really hope it's a political move not meant to be taken. I don't want to have to switch my opinion of Extell from White Knight to Robber Baron Scumbag so quickly--even if Extell wouldn't make any money on the deal, its still would be a sellout considering the genesis of its interest in bidding came from DDDB's call for alternative bids.

I warned this would happen: http://ltjbukem.blogspot.com/2005/07/11th-hour-heroics-from-develop-dont.html#comments

The idea that a for-profit development corporation like Extell would play the savior role for brownstone hipster liberals, not to mention ardent anti-capitalists like Enemy Combatant was preposterous to begin with. So now we get the same stadium, plus condos that are still not anywhere near the scale of brownstones, yet guaranteed to be architecturally dull and boring. Greeeeaaaat.

anonymous

If Extell gets the development rights the stadium won't be built, at least that's my prediction.

Stadiums are not profitable to develop, thus they need subsidies, lots of subsidies. Ratner is looking for a subsidy in the form of the right to build housing which will be highly profitable.

The stadium is a loss leader and is not economically feasible on its own.

carnivore

Ben wrote: If Extell gets the development rights the stadium won't be built, at least that's my prediction.

Stadiums are not profitable to develop, thus they need subsidies, lots of subsidies. Ratner is looking for a subsidy in the form of the right to build housing which will be highly profitable.

The stadium is a loss leader and is not economically feasible on its own.

Agreed. That's why Ratner has no interest in working with Extell to build a stadium if he doesn't get the development contract to go with it. Similarly, I don't think Extell has any real interest in building a stadium. That was an offer that was expected to be refused, and was only made so that the stadium could be taken out of the equation in comparing the bids.

escap

Yeah, you guys may well be right. But I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Extell to fulfill the hopes of the dddb crowd. And if the move is that obvious, the city is likely thinking the same thing. I guess we'll see.

I don't know, but isn't the Extell plan kind of....boring? Isn't there any part of anyone that was excited by the thought of a dramatic transformation and development of downtown bklyn? Wait, I forgot who was I was talking to. I better find another message board.

carnivore

escap wrote: Yeah, you guys may well be right. But I still wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Extell to fulfill the hopes of the dddb crowd. And if the move is that obvious, the city is likely thinking the same thing. I guess we'll see.

I don't know, but isn't the Extell plan kind of....boring? Isn't there any part of anyone that was excited by the thought of a dramatic transformation and development of downtown bklyn? Wait, I forgot who was I was talking to. I better find another message board.

Honestly, my biggest problem with the Ratner project is the eminent domain part. If people don't want to sell or move, no one should be able to force them for the benefit of a private concern. It's not like they're building a highway. I don't have any particular objection to the development of that whole in the ground, although I think this location is ill-suited for a stadium.

emily

I agree with Carnivore. If it weren't for the eminent domain aspect (and the extreme hideousness/lameness of Ratner's previous projects) I would probably grind my teeth and leave it at that.

anonymous

I dont like the eminent domain factor at all, but the part I hate most is footing the bill for all that crap...for 99 years.

captain m

Anonymous wrote: I dont like the eminent domain factor at all, but the part I hate most is footing the bill for all that crap...for 99 years.

That was me... oops

escap

Anonymous wrote: I dont like the eminent domain factor at all, but the part I hate most is footing the bill for all that crap...for 99 years.

I know this has already been discussed ad nauseum, but hey, I'm bored at work.

I agree that eminent domain is the worst part of the Ratner plan and can't blame DG for his opposition (though I can for his bombast). But I don't get the "footing the bill" remark. If the city invests $10 into a project that generates $20, is that a $10 loss for taxpayers? Does anyone really believe that in the long run any Atlantic Yards development project would be a net money-loser for the city, compared to what's there now? (Yes, I've read the Columbia scholar's argument, so please don't post that.) The eminent domain argument is debatable, but at least there are legitimate points to be made on both sides.

dailyheights

Extell is pretty much out of the picture now:

http://www.dailyheights.com/archives/2005/07/mta_fcr_deal_is.html

anonymous

not so.

jamesondean

Subject: Two words

Civil lawsuit. That's what can be expected on multiple fronts at this point. The MTA just really screwed up, and can expect to be sued as a result, which will completely negate any money that was due to the agency. As usual, the taxpayers will foot the bill. Grr.

anonymous

What's wrong with taxpayers flipping the bill?
It's a way of life.
If you don't want to support this, pack up and move back to the sunshine state. I'm sure you'll be taxed for some other kind of development.
Why do taxpayers associate paying taxes and owning something. Get out of this way of thinking.
As a working citizen paying taxes for the greater good of development is essential in growth