Associated Supermarket on Nostrand Avenue (at Sullivan Place)

mugofmead111

Diana Richardson dropped some news at the CB9 meeting tonight. The Associated Supermarket on Nostrand Avenue lost its lease. It's apparently located in a spot that is zoned R7-1. 

So, @whynot_31, let the speculation commence. (Now maybe someone can convince TPTB to construct a stand-alone Trader Joe's?)

whynot_31

If it is zoned R7-1, it is a good candidate for being torn down.    975 Nostrand.    New building can be as big as The Plex across the street.

mugofmead111

The Plex isn't that big (or at least as big as the worst case scenario as MTOPP is making).

whynot_31

It is the approximate scale of what will happen in several places.      Where the church was on Rogers, for example.

nothinlikeabklyngirl

Oh no. I remember walking to that supermarket when I was a kid, back in the '80s when it was an A&P. We used to cut through what I thought was an alley; back then I didn't realize Clove Road was a real street or that it had a name. And we would stop at the ices shop on Empire, which was either where the rental car place is at 391 Empire or the building just before it coming from New York Ave.

mugofmead111

@nothinlikeabklyngirl, I also remember when that supermarket was an A&P. We would sometimes go there to shop as it was down the street. This was also long before Western Beef was on Empire Boulevard.

southeast

That is a pretty big lot.  It seems to be R7-1 with a C2-3 overlay; the same as The Plex.  (Not sure what the overlay means; @whynot_31, can you explain?)

The lot is bigger than The Plex.  So depending on the footprint/lot coverage and setbacks of a new building, I think they may be able to build higher than The Plex as I don't believe R7-1 has any particular height limits.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm picturing an upscale strip of retail stores on that block (Trader Joe's get's my vote!).  The Plex has, what appears to be, some nice retail space, and I presume any new building across the street will require retail as well.  I also presume the stores between Associated and Montgomery won't remain as they are for too long (also zoned R7-1 with a C2-3 overlay).

mugofmead111

The lot is bigger than The Plex.  So depending on the footprint/lot coverage and setbacks of a new building, I think they may be able to build higher than The Plex as I don't believe R7-1 has any particular height limits.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Possibly something as tall as Ebbets Field or Tivoli Towers or Patio Gardens? Interesting.

whynot_31

No, not as tall as them.

Here's the scoop:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/zone/zoning_handbook/r7-1_r7-2.pdf

If they want to build high, they have to figure in sky exposure planes.

If they build lower (ie the "quality housing option"), the developers get to have a bigger building in terms of FAR.

As a builder you get to weigh whether you will make more money from a building with lots of sq ft, vs one that has some views from upper floors.

....you get to scratch your chin and think about who your likely customer base will be for each, and how much $ they will have.

Under the current adminstration, they might get a variance to build high (like the buildings you mention) but this would only happen if they included affordable housing. Then, the developer gets to decide at what point the level of affordability impacts the overall profitability of the building.

Some solve this via "poor doors", but that is a bigger conversation. Let's leave our poor Associated out of that for now.

southeast

 

That is a pretty big lot.  It seems to be R7-1 with a C2-3 overlay; the same as The Plex.  (Not sure what the overlay means; @whynot_31, can you explain?)

It seems that overlay in this instance simply allows for a "mixed building" so we may still have retail there.  

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/zh_c1_c2_overlays.shtml

Who do I have to call to get a Trader Joe's?  There will be access from Clove Road which will allow them to easily unload their trailers in the back (something someone mentioned when we discussed the former Capital One bank building on Washington).

All this on just a rumor... that Associated's lease is up... and I'm already planning a development with particular retail tenants. How desperate am I for "change" and a Trader Joe's?! Noted...

southeast

No, not as tall as them.

I just noticed that 626 Flatbush is zoned R7-1 as well, and that is going to be pretty big.

whynot_31

Yes, they were able to do that as a result of having a really big lot and building back from the street.

aerial photo of lot and guy in suit: http://therealdeal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/kramer-pic-final.jpg

source: http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/02/07/hudson-cos-plans-254-unit-tower-near-prospect-park/

This tactic affected the "sky exposure plane" math that they needed to abide by.

I think we'd need an architect to determine just how high of a building Associated can build using such techniques. I'm no expert.

hm17

Architect here. Stand by... give me a couple of days...

whynot_31

@hm17 thanks.

pragmaticguy

I'm surprised that there would be access from Clove Rd. It's quite a narrow street and residential on one side. I worked at an auto parts place that bordered Clove Rd. back in the 70s and that street is really not wide enough to support a trailer .Matter of fact, when we had to unload a trailer we had to set up about 50 feet of rollers because the trailer couldn't back into our yard. When I worked in the area, the lot behind the A&P was fenced off and there was only a small spot to walk through.

southeast

@pragmaticguy - I've seen school buses head down Clove Rd. making a pick up on the corner of Malbone St.  Also, the Associated parking lot from Clove Rd., and I've seen that (rear) part of the lot used as a nighttime parking lot for commercial vehicles (straight trucks).  Lastly, I've also seen tractor-trailers driving out of the Associated lot onto Nostrand and presume they didn't make a U turn in the lot.

southeast

Lot size:

With The Plex for comparison purposes:

Source: NYC's Digital Tax Map

pragmaticguy

@Southeast....All I stated was that the was no opening from Clove Rd to the back of the Associated lot when I worked in the area some 40 years ago. I haven't been down that street since that time. There may very well be access now.

mugofmead111

Here's Forgotten New York's entry about Clove Road and the extant part of Malbone Street. 

It'd be a shame if they were wiped off the map in the name of progress. 

whynot_31

They couldn't eliminate Clove Road with out getting lots of permissions.

It isn't like the old days: http://brooklynhistory.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/B-B-1946.fl-776x1023.jpg

southeast

@pragmaticguy - Understood.  I recall some work being done on that road 5/10 years ago.  That may have been when things changed.

I am just trying to convince Trader Joe's to start looking in to that as a location, just in case someone out there with influence is listening...  I am getting tired of rushing to Rego Park after work to make it there before 10pm.

southeast

Side note - It just jumped out at me that the Empire, New York, Clove, and Malbone square seems underutilized and ripe for development. That whole area appears to be zoned R6 with C2-3 overlay.

mugofmead111

Side note - It just jumped out at me that the Empire, New York, Clove, and Malbone square seems underutilized and ripe for development. That whole area appears to be zoned R6 with C2-3 overlay.

At this rate, the neighborhood's not going to have any gas stations left! LOL

southeast

@mugofmead111 - I doubt that there will be many who would miss that particular gas station.

whynot_31

Lots of areas are able to developed to a much greater degree than they are now.

Whether they will be developed (and when) depends on whether developers believe the area is better than other areas in the eyes of buyers.

Developers only have so much "attention" (capital, labor, etc), and I see the area surrounding the Parkside Q as getting it before the square you describe. There, I envision multistory buildings being torn down to make for mid to high rises.

"Here", I envision supermarkets with large parking lots (and -as we saw on Rogers- churches with lots of grass), becoming midrises.

mugofmead111

@mugofmead111 - I doubt that there will be many who would miss that particular gas station.

For those with cars, where else are you going to get gas? The stations at Empire and Bedford are gone. The one at Bedford and Eastern Parkway are gone. The one at Lefferts Ave and Flatbush is on the market. I dunno what's going on with the one at Rogers and Empire.

it's relevant for the occasional times I borrow a Zipcar and have to refuel before returning the car.  

At least that square is across from the local precinct. 

southeast

@whynot_31 - I understand that there are many places that are underdeveloped.  The reason why I mentioned that square is because it is 'significantly' underutilized; pretty much as close to a vacant lot one can get without actually having a vacant lot.

southeast

@mugofmead111 - I always found that gas station kinda spooky/shady/sketchy with odd hours.  I only use it as a last resort; basically, almost never.

There are a few gas stations on Utica south of Empire and on Atlantic which don't appear to be going anywhere in the near future.

whynot_31

@whynot_31 - I understand that there are many places that are underdeveloped.  The reason why I mentioned that square is because it is 'significantly' underutilized; pretty much as close to a vacant lot one can get without actually having a vacant lot.

The prices on those lots likely reflect their potential.

mugofmead111

@mugofmead111 - I always found that gas station kinda spooky/shady/sketchy with odd hours.  I only use it as a last resort; basically, almost never.

There are a few gas stations on Utica south of Empire and on Atlantic which don't appear to be going anywhere in the near future.

I'd be looking for something closer to the western side of CH/PLG as that is where the Zipcars (and I) are situated. (Sometimes I use the Zipcars that are parked in the Plex.) 

Google claims that gas station is open 24 hours. 

whynot_31

When I rent a car, it is usually for trips out of the city.

The trick is to not rent a car with a full tank, that way I can fill it outside of the city with exactly the amount of gas required to return it at the same level.

Returning to the supermarket, I wonder how much business the nearby supermarkets were able to capture when this closed.

Is this area getting frequent Fresh Direct deliveries yet?