Two Saints on Nostrand Grand Opening Friday, March 20, 2015

SmokeeGoddinson

since today's my bday Im probably gonna stomp thru for a bit tonight.  

whynot_31

press:  http://gothamist.com/2015/03/20/two_saints_bar_crown_heights.php#photo-1

nateasensky

Went last night with a nice group of friends, found a super cozy booth like area in the back just for us, and had a grand ole time!

whynot_31

the scene this weekend, as per Two Saints facebook feed:

laura palmer

It looks very white and young from that snapshot --- I hope it really does manage to become a space that can cater to the whole crown heights community, as promised in the glowing gothamist eulogy. 

Are there places you guys can think of that manage to cater to a diverse cross-section of residents? Tinto's and meme's healthy nibbles come to mind for me. 

crownheightster

I hope that the Bruekelen Brasserie will cater to a diverse cross-section of the neighborhood.

whynot_31

Just like every other business on Nostrand (and in the world), this business will be utilized only by those with the means and preferences to consume its services.

Or, to put it a different way:
When a business serves only a segment of an area, it does not necessarily mean that the business desires to only serve a segment.

The "decisions" are made as much by the consumers of services as the providers.

Brooklyneya

Actually one thing I love about our neighborhood in comparison to other areas (e.g williamsburg) is the diversity at each business. Chavelas, Franklin Park, The Island, The Pulp and the Bean, Catfish, Cafe Rue Dix, Blackbird, and Gladys seem to attract a diverse crowd. The ratio is still more white to non-white, but I think that's partly due to the fact that many of the Caribbean/West African/African Americans in the neighborhood are families rather than young-ish professionals or grad students who have different entertainment habits and tastes. There will always be businesses that cater to different communities, but what would be nice is the opening of businesses that can attract the overlap (a good BBQ place for example, or a venue like Brooklyn Bowl).

laura palmer

I'm not sure it's as totally simple as that economic analysis @whynot_31 -- from what I can tell, Two Saints has done a good job of keeping its menu relatively cheap - but time will tell who feels comfortable there. And, for example, Lula Bagel and Tinto's serve similar products at similar price points - but Tinto's has made huge efforts to make all of their customers feel equally welcome and, from what i've heard and seen, Lula Bagel has not. 

whynot_31

Preferences play a huge role.

Given the differences in wealth and preferences in the area, I think most businesses would be crazy to try to please everyone.

At this point, I think the most diverse business west of Nostrand in CH might be the diner on the grounds of the Jewish Hospital complex.

A some point during the month, it seems people want a Western Omlet and a coffee for around $8. ...no matter who they are.

homeowner

There are several businesses in CH, that make their preference for customers clear in the service they provide. Bartenders/ baristas/ waiters/ waitresses that ignore customers of color waiting for service while chatting with friends and/or other customers is a problem at some places. I'm sure its never done intentionally, but I do think that owners/managers need to be conscious of the messages customer receive when they get the most minimal service possible. Also, it is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people of color will actively avoid places that don't seem to be welcoming to them and the combination of price point, diversity of staff, and customer base is often used as proxy to determine if black folks are welcomed. 

From the list that @Brooklyneya cited above, its telling that half of those places are actually owned by people of color. I'd add Gureros, Bombay Massala and Sweet Basil to that list as well. 

Brooklyneya

I agree that a diverse staff and business owners play a significant part as well. Price point-- I don't think it's as important as one may think. A dinner at Dallas BBQ or Buffalo Wild Wings with drinks and appetizers isn't necessarily cheaper than a dinner at Cent'anni, yet they attract very different crowds. A Starbucks drink may cost $4-5, the same as a pour over or cappuccino from some hipster cafe, but you're more likely to see people of color buying the former than the latter. My high school students would spend $200+ on a pair of sneakers while I would never spend that much on a pair of shoes. Spending patterns are way more complicated than just being just based on income and cost.

whynot_31

I'm sure its never done intentionally, but I do think that owners/managers need to be conscious of the messages customer receive when they get the most minimal service possible. Also, it is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people of color will actively avoid places that don't seem to be welcoming to them and the combination of price point, diversity of staff, and customer base is often used as proxy to determine if black folks are welcomed.

I wouldn't say "never".

I have seen it done intentionally, and under the direction of management.

For example, I have been privy to conversations with a new bar manager wherein he described the demographics they wished to attract and serve.

The new bar owner stated to me he was not going to stock Hennessy and Heniken because he believed that would make his bar unattractive to black males. (specific black males?)

He stated that his bar needed to ensure it was not attractive to them in the beginning, because groups don't mix well, and if the bar was perceived as being a "black place" it would suffer financially, because the whites would not come.

(I'll only answer "which bar?!" via PM, to posters I know and trust)

crownheightster

We are all strangers in the strange land of retail options. The dynamics of why groups of people choose to frequent a particular place are complicated, to be sure, and many factors (and how groups weigh them) are in play: price, location, aesthetics, diversity/inclusivity, quality of product, other people, service, etc. 

But as an individual, I am so happy to now have so many choices, at least in coffee shops and bars, in the neighborhood. Am I, at this very moment, craving a place where the owner knows my name? Then I go to Tinto's. Do I need a fairly substantial bite to eat or do I want a 50 percent off pastry after 5pm? Lula Bagel it is. Do I want to be anonymous, so my kid can misbehave and I don't care that much? STARBUCKS. Do I want to feel like I am part of an intellectual conversation at an old New Amsterdam coffee house? Breukelen, then. Each place creates a different dynamic, starting with the ambiance created by the owners, emanating from the service of the staff, and creating group dynamics and cohesion that are hard to get a hold on, hard to dispel. 

booklaw

Well said!

whynot_31

Non-chain coffeehouses definately work to develop a group of loyal customers, and many customers end up knowing each other as a result of the countless hours spent together on laptops. They also have specific brands of coffee.

To my amusement, they are then annoyed when those who are just passing through the area (or who are local but not regulars) go to Starbucks to get their quick fix.

whynot_31

the scene this weekend:

Related: The one black person easily visible in the above shot (petite female behind bar), is the general manager.

suppleknuckles

i was there on friday night and it seemed more diverse than this picture suggests. still all young people, however.

whynot_31

I suspect that many people attended the opening night as a result of reading about it here on Brooklynian, as well as on Gothamist.

I was not there, but the crowd seems as diverse as most occasions I visit Franklin Park, Branch Office or Berg'n.

rogers_sterling

The place looks really nice, which opinion I'm basing solely on peering in the door yesterday as I walked by. I honestly have not walked on that part of Nostrand in a while and was surprised to see a few new businesses that I've read about on here but never witnessed. I used to live on St Johns and Nostrand 5 years ago or so, and the change is surprising! (Glad to see Glenda's is still there--I need to get one of those roti again soon.)

suppleknuckles

i'll be honest; i wasn't too impressed. the decor was muddled and the drinks were blah. I'll stick to King Tai, which is a gem of a space curated by a Pratt architecture grad and his talented friends. it's funny that it feels like they're going for a similar deco vibe...King Tai nails it and Two Saints sorta misses the mark.

anyway, I'm an artist so that's why i'm obsessing over decor details

whynot_31

Have you been to Branch Office yet?

It also is going for a 50s retro feel. I guess I prefer it to the Edison light bulbs and reclaimed wood that ruled 2009, but it will take some getting used to.

Brooklyneya

That seems to be the latest interior design trend, so expect a lot more new businesses to look like that. The dark, industrial look is being replaced with a brighter, retro-ish style. More white and sea green/turquoise less black and brown.

Although I haven't been to either, I got the same impression as suppleknuckles from the photos (that King Tai did a more solid job with the decor).

ehgee

Kingston Lounge will win at providing that aesthetic. Any updates on the repairs?  

whynot_31

I would post here: http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/22762/the-kingston-lounge/p1

And wait for nothinlike to respond.

clayfilms

I'm sure its never done intentionally, but I do think that owners/managers need to be conscious of the messages customer receive when they get the most minimal service possible. Also, it is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people of color will actively avoid places that don't seem to be welcoming to them and the combination of price point, diversity of staff, and customer base is often used as proxy to determine if black folks are welcomed.

I wouldn't say "never".

I have seen it done intentionally, and under the direction of management.

For example, I have been privy to conversations with a new bar manager wherein he described the demographics they wished to attract and serve.

The new bar owner stated to me he was not going to stock Hennessy and Heniken because he believed that would make his bar unattractive to black males. (specific black males?)

He stated that his bar needed to ensure it was not attractive to them in the beginning, because groups don't mix well, and if the bar was perceived as being a "black place" it would suffer financially, because the whites would not come.

(I'll only answer "which bar?!" via PM, to posters I know and trust)

I visited this bar yesterday and while there is still no Hennessy to be found, they do have bottles of Heineken.

whynot_31

Note: We are now talking about an establishment that is not Two Saints.

@Clayfilms -
I bet you they could NOW stock Hennessy, Heineken and be friendly to everyone AND meet their stated goals.

Crownheightster describes the phenomena well:
"Each place creates a different dynamic, starting with the ambiance created by the owners, emanating from the service of the staff, and creating group dynamics and cohesion that are hard to get a hold on, hard to dispel."

In other words, the owners and staff can now relax:
As a result of not stocking certain types of alcohol and (I have no doubt) providing different levels of "welcome", they have achieved the dynamics they desired and such dynamics are self reinforcing.

They can NOW be welcoming to blacks, without fear of it becoming a "black place" because only blacks interested in drinking in an environment in which they are the minority will come.

bkarchitect

....

At this point, I think the most diverse business west of Nostrand in CH might be the diner on the grounds of the Jewish Hospital complex.....

Slightly off topic - that diner is THE WORST.

MasTacos

There are several businesses in CH, that make their preference for customers clear in the service they provide. Bartenders/ baristas/ waiters/ waitresses that ignore customers of color waiting for service while chatting with friends and/or other customers is a problem at some places. I'm sure its never done intentionally, but I do think that owners/managers need to be conscious of the messages customer receive when they get the most minimal service possible. Also, it is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people of color will actively avoid places that don't seem to be welcoming to them and the combination of price point, diversity of staff, and customer base is often used as proxy to determine if black folks are welcomed. 

As a 20 something black-to-most male I've definitely experienced this and it's pushing me to move elsewhere.

clayfilms

Note: We are now talking about an establishment that is not Two Saints.

@Clayfilms -
I bet you they could NOW stock Hennessy, Heineken and be friendly to everyone AND meet their stated goals.

Crownheightster describes the phenomena well:
"Each place creates a different dynamic, starting with the ambiance created by the owners, emanating from the service of the staff, and creating group dynamics and cohesion that are hard to get a hold on, hard to dispel."

In other words, the owners and staff can now relax:
As a result of not stocking certain types of alcohol and (I have no doubt) providing different levels of "welcome", they have achieved the dynamics they desired and such dynamics are self reinforcing.

They can NOW be welcoming to blacks, without fear of it becoming a "black place" because only blacks interested in drinking in an environment in which they are the minority will come.

Infuriating. I feel like hosting a family reunion party there over a 4 weekend span just to change the vibe....lol