Two Saints on Nostrand Grand Opening Friday, March 20, 2015

whynot_31

Needless to say, such discrimination is not limited to race during a new business' first defining weeks.

In situations wherein bar owners believe the label of "gay bar" would be bad for business, they take steps to make them feel unwelcome. When they do not have that perception, they may go as far as placing a rainbow flag in the window.

Which brings me back to what I think is a good question:

If whites won't go to a bar that is a "black place" and blacks won't go to one that is a "white place",

AND

if Nostrand has reached a point that new businesses (with new rents...) can't survive without business from whites,

Will it be any surprise if Nostrand closely resembles Smith Street in 2019?

whynot_31

The opening of Two Saints has prompted Gyaltsen F. Go to write a piece:

http://www.brooklyneagle.com/articles/2015/3/27/opinion-gentrification-holdup-crown-heights

clayfilms

Needless to say, such discrimination is not limited to race during a new business' first defining weeks.

In situations wherein bar owners believe the label of "gay bar" would be bad for business, they take steps to make them feel unwelcome. When they do not have that perception, they may go as far as placing a rainbow flag in the window.

Which brings me back to what I think is a good question:

If whites won't go to a bar that is a "black place" and blacks won't go to one that is a "white place",

AND

if Nostrand has reached a point that new businesses (with new rents...) can't survive without business from whites,

Will it be any surprise if Nostrand closely resembles Smith Street in 2019?

I don't think it's that crazy...the bars and restaurants on nostrand are pretty diverse...it's not quite 1990's South Africa just yet Mike..lol

whynot_31

Do you remember Vanderbilt Ave in Prospect Heights in -say- 2000?

It had hair salons, storefront churches, and appropriately published the Haitian Times newspaper.

Soda and Beast were among the first businesses to serve those new to the neighborhood....

homeowner

I'm sure its never done intentionally, but I do think that owners/managers need to be conscious of the messages customer receive when they get the most minimal service possible. Also, it is somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people of color will actively avoid places that don't seem to be welcoming to them and the combination of price point, diversity of staff, and customer base is often used as proxy to determine if black folks are welcomed.

I wouldn't say "never".

I have seen it done intentionally, and under the direction of management.

For example, I have been privy to conversations with a new bar manager wherein he described the demographics they wished to attract and serve.

The new bar owner stated to me he was not going to stock Hennessy and Heniken because he believed that would make his bar unattractive to black males. (specific black males?)

He stated that his bar needed to ensure it was not attractive to them in the beginning, because groups don't mix well, and if the bar was perceived as being a "black place" it would suffer financially, because the whites would not come.

(I'll only answer "which bar?!" via PM, to posters I know and trust)

The funniest thing about this whole discussion is that the black men I hang with regularly don't drink either Hennessy or Heineken. They are Bullet Bourbon and Corona drinkers. So I guess I can invite them all to drinks in the neighborhood without fear that they are the "wrong" type?

Stereotypes at work...

whynot_31

It is clear to me that we need to call Doctor Seuss.

He could tell the bar manager and the customers who won't mix, all about the Sneetches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories

whynot_31

2 months later....

When I walk by Two Saints, I see very few (if any) people eating. I am told there is an ok size late night crowd, but I have yet to visit.

In light of this "lack of dining crowd", I have been told that Breukelen Brasserie is not going to open until they get their liquor lic, whereas they previously planned to open as soon as they were inspected by DOH.

http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/38309/breukelen-brasserie-to-soon-open-at-710-nostrand-corner-of-prospect#Item_70

Is this a case of Nostrand not being as ready for upscale dining as the operator thought it was?

....will it merely take "Nostrand" a while to match the price and preferences that Two Saints has geared itself to?

crownheightster

Copying this over from my last post, with a few more thoughts...

Did Two Saints really fail to attract a dining crowd? I never thought that they were even TRYING to attract a dining crowd. The cafe never really got off the ground, the service was pretty awful during the day, and the extent of the food options were donuts. Also, they don't have an evening menu or anything.... at least that I am aware of...and I live literally around the corner and walk by every day. If they can't reach me with their food offerings, someone in their marketing team needs to go.

I was glad when they cut bait on the cafe idea. It seemed like they had the capability to be a great cafe or a great bar, and I am glad they chose the latter. It seems crowded with bar patrons in the evenings and is a great neighborhood spot. I sometimes run into Oscar from Tinto there, enjoying a beer.

whynot_31

I believe Two Saints constructed a kitchen in the basement.

If I am correct, they are not going to get an ROI on that investment if they are just serving drinks.

tateinbk

The evenings I have been in Two Saints they have only served Doubles from Golden Palace, at a hefty $3 each instead of $1.50 from the source.  I haven't ever gotten the impression they were offering more.

whynot_31

As business picks up, they can always add a larger food component.

I have been watching the area to see which business will be the first to offer what I define as brunch.

Will it be Soul Kitchen on Kingston? Brasserie on Nostrand? Two Saints?

...Meme's currently comes pretty close

crownheightster

Colina Cuervo has table service and breakfast/lunch food (pancakes with spicy chorizo and dulche de leche butter!) But no mimosas yet. 

whynot_31

Based on what presently happens at the Bearded Lady on Washington, I am pretty confident that the site presently being constructed at 722 Nostrand will offer brunch.

http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/38932/722-nostrand-near-sterling-gets-renovated-and-might-become-a-bar-andor-restaurant#Item_8

I don't think I'm taking much of a risk when I state that Nostrand will have a few brunch choices by January 2017.

crownheightster

Choices? Choices? OMG.

whynot_31

In my experience, when an area has enough people who both like brunch AND have the means to enjoy it, brunch places tend to appear.

In NYC, craft beer and cocktail places seem to appear about 2 years beforehand.

suppleknuckles

i came by here last night after trying to go to Doris on Fulton (it was obnoxiously loud and packed...) and the bartender basically turned us away because they were empty and closing. It was 2 am, on a saturday night--late, but not too late considering Doris was packed to the gills, and Nostrand Ave Pub as well as King Tai had healthy crowds as we rode past them. The bartender said it had been empty all night, and he'd serve us if we *really* wanted to stay (we didn't). The bouncer was just seated at the counter having a drink and checking facebook, and the whole place smelled of cleaning products. We went to Erv's closer to home instead.

i wonder if Two Saints will go the way of Wedge. much like Wedge it feels pretty mediocre in every sense. I feel the same way about Little Zelda, but that seems to remain open somehow

whynot_31

If the crowd in Two Saints tonight at 8:45 PM is a reliable indicator, this place has found its stride.

Pretty full.

Likely to get fuller as the night goes on.

crownheightster

Two Saints now has beautiful new glass windows. They open out into the street, giving Two Saints the feel of a French cafe/bistro.

whynot_31

Just in time for summer, when it faces competition from the bars with backyards.