Solar Panels Catching On In Crown Heights

capt. planet

Last night at the Community Board 8 Housing Committee meeting, a representative from Solar One announced that they now have a group of 9 home owners in Crown Heights working together to install solar panels on their roofs.  Solar One is an advocacy group that promotes alternative energy.  Solar One will now issue at RFP to solar installers for this group of home owners.  The owners will then pick the installer they want to work with. By working as a group, Solar One estimates they will save 30% on the cost of installation.  The group of nine is much larger than the last group of four from Park Slope.  To find how to join future groups you can send an email to [email protected]

Another sign that the solar movement is growing is a recent article in the NY Daily News on the topic.

pheightsresident

I'm all for it. Financially, however, this doesn't work for my family. While the cost savings, especially after rebates and the like are good news, not everyone has $25,000-$30,000 up front for such a project. But, kudos to those who are able to make this work! 

whynot_31

The decision whether this works is not only related to the upfront cost, but also how long one plans to own their building.

If I was only going to stay in the neighborhood a while, I would have to predict whether the buyer of my home would value the investment as much as its "worth".

pheightsresident

Very true. Although, in this area (if it continues to change as it has been), I think that such panels would only be seen as a plus. 

whynot_31

Yes, I suspect the vast majority of buyers would view the panels as a plus.

My hesitance would be whether they were willing to pay the full value of said plus, and whether the value of the panels would continue to drop as new technology and gov incentives become available.

capt. planet

The costs of the panels can be paid for by investors who get their money back on the savings in your electrical bill.  Solar One can arrange the financing.

Will the costs of solar panels continue to decline.  Will the technology improve?  Probably but then there is the reality that every solar panel reduces the impact of humans on climate change.  Doing something to lessen my impact on the planet appeals to me, especially if there's a financial incentive to do so.

whynot_31

I choose not to have children for similar reasons: It is good for the planet and my wallet.

Dawndew

The investment comes back in about 6 years or better if you own a landmark. Tax abatements!

whynot_31

I like the Capt's idea of selling the future savings at a net present value.

I wonder if the tax credits could be amortized that way as well.

Dawndew

It has a better return than stocks even if the electric bills rate didn't keep rising

whynot_31

Long Island has some of the highest electric rates in the nation. I'd expect panels to become popular there first.

...but then I realize that it is not as lefty or fortunate as some parts Brooklyn are rapidly becoming.

capt. planet

The biggest surge in solar panel installations in the past year, according the the NY Daily News article linked earlier, is in Staten Island, hardly a hot bed of lefty thinking.  Panels are easy to install for single family homes and guess SI residents can do math as well as Brooklynites.

whynot_31

It makes sense that Staten Island would embrace the panels and LI would not, because Staten Island strikes me as having a population that loves living there, and will
be around to recoup the investment.

Whereas Long Island seems to have a population that is being killed by property taxes and traffic, and is always talking about moving their version of utopia:  North Carolina.

pragmaticguy

There's lots of houses with solar panels on Long Island. Many people don't realize though, that the panels don't last forever. I think the lifespan is about 10 years before they start losing their ability to store energy so they do have to be replaced. And let's hope that during a storm a tree doesn't fall on the roof because even though it would be covered by insurance it would still be a bitch to have to pull them all off to fix the roof before the panels would be replaced.

capt. planet

Solar panels are guaranteed for a minimum of 20 years by their manufacturers.  

Here's a quote from an industry website to that effect.

" Photovoltaic (PV) modules typically come with 20 year warranties that guarantee that the panels will produce at least 80% of the rated power after 20 years of use. The general rule of thumb is that panels will degrade by about 1% each year. Is that rule accurate?

Degradation Rates

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) performed a meta-analysis of studies that examined the long term degradation rates of various PV panels. They found that the 1% per year rule was somewhat pessimistic for panels made prior to the year 2000, and today’s panels, with better technology and improved manufacturing techniques, have even more stamina than their predecessors. For monocrystalline silicon, the most commonly used panel for commercial and residential PV, the degradation rate is less than 0.5% for panels made before 2000, and less than 0.4% for panels made after 2000. That means that a panel manufactured today should produce 92% of its original power after 20 years, quite a bit higher than the 80% estimated by the 1% rule." 

More can be found at :

http://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/7475/What-Is-the-Lifespan-of-a-Solar-Panel.aspx

whynot_31

Solar panels are improving.

Do most houses with solar panels go the extra step and invest in the ability to store energy for cloudy days?

Or, do they just sell the excess energy generated to the grid on sunny days and use energy from the grid on cloudy days?

My sense is that a large % of the costs are presently covered by tax subsidies. Without these subsidies, how long would it take to recoup the actual costs of the panels?

...IE: How long does it take before the panels make financial sense to not just the end consumer, but the larger society that has competing needs for its tax dollars?

capt. planet

Almost all panels are connected to the grid so that the owner does not have to invest in expensive and environmentally destructive lead acid batteries.

I wonder if people are aware the amount of tax subsidies that oil and gas exploration get every year from the government.  How about the owners of coal fired generators?  Far more than are received by the manufacturers and owners of renewable energy.  

Then look at the cost of the climate change caused by these energy producers.  Sandy alone caused $65 billion worth of damage.  Are the oil and gas companies paying for this damage?  No, US taxpayers and insurance companies are.

whynot_31

I'm all for the manufacturers and end users of solar energy getting some of the pork that the gov passes out to everyone with a lobbyist.

I'm merely asking if you know the costs of the panels in present value tax dollars.

...those costs are readily quantifiable, whereas the external costs and the long term damage to the earth is not.

Can you give me the present costs of the panels we are talking about?

Preferably in dollars, not in "trees saved".

capt. planet

A quick google search can provide this information.  Why is this discussion so insistent on myopia?

whynot_31

You are Capt Planet.

...I assume you have sites you would prefer I look at, and sites I should avoid.

It is also good training for you in the event you are ever invited to a typical board meeting of a Crown Heights coop. There, they will ask you these financial questions, as well as:

-How many trees and butterflies these panels would save?

-Are they are strong enough to be used as a roof deck in cases where a building has already achieved its maximum height?

-Are there versions of the panels that speed the fermentation of beer, as opposed to generate electricity?

The Crown Heights market is tough.

capt. planet

How many trees and butterflies?  Sadly your sense of humor eludes me.

whynot_31

Sense of humor? These are real questions you should expect to have to answer.

Clearly you have not been to a building meeting lately; The residents are much flakier than those who attend CB or CHNA mtgs.

capt. planet

These are not serious questions.  To compare the cost of solar panels to the death of the planet?  If you really want to know the answers to specific questions related to solar panels, I'd suggest you check out 

http://solar1.org/here-comes-solar/

whynot_31

Capt -
These questions (along with the financial ones) are, sadly, serious questions that people ask before deciding to put solar on their home.

People make cost-benefit decisions all of the time.
We weigh safety vs time, financial cost of Project A vs alternative projects.

You need to convince people that solar is not only a good thing, but is the best use of their time and resources.

9 homeowners is a great start.

Dawndew

we often buy stocks with less return than these panels will bring and stocks are always bought for long term investment.

whynot_31

Dawndew-
If you wanted to, you could buy earth friendly investments, like acres of land that is ripe for development and then leave it wild.   During your life, it would appreciate in value and your could then sell it to an entity like Trust for Public Land or NYS under the condition that it never be developed.

The ratio of butterflies and trees saved would be way higher than had you purchased solar panels.

   

capt. planet

I think that most folks simply don't want to think about the future these days.  Nothing is built to last very long.  Our buildings are being built more cheaply than ever.  I think it's indicative of a fear associated with thinking about the future.  Look at the rash of disaster movies, from Godzilla to The Day After Tomorrow to Interstellar.  All of these are just ways to help us scratch our deep seated fears without actually doing anything. 

More specifically, we have now burned through over 50% of our conventional fossil fuel reserves.  We are on the down side of the peak oil peak.  Only extreme energy reserves are keeping the price of oil and natural gas normal.  I'm talking hyrdo fracking, tar sands, arctic drilling and deep water drilling.  No one wants to change their lazy ass ways and we just keep getting our selves deeper into climate doodoo

The stock market reflects this short term thinking. If it didn't then no one would be buying oil and gas stocks and everyone would be chasing renewables.

whynot_31

We live in a world where people get to assign their own meanings.

For example this oil company believes it adheres to the Native American ethos of thinking ahead for 7 Generations.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/seven-generations-jumps-on-low-costs-to-buck-energy-trend/article25909889/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_generation_sustainability

If you change how you define the goals, you too can invest in oil.

Vanderbilly

I've been seeking out information on solar panels for the past few weeks.  I'm on the board of a 13 unit building and I've been sent out looking for some hard facts.  I still don't know if solar is a viable solution for us.  Capt Planet's above link didn't have many answers.

I've also tried contacting solar1 twice through the link above and once more through their website, and have not gotten a response.   Capt.  Planet, can you assist?

capt. planet

I just spoke with Elena at Solar1.  She said the best contact link is:

herecomessolar.nyc/get-started

Or you can try her direct at [email protected]

Good luck.

Thanks,

Greg

Vanderbilly

On it. thanks Capt'n!