Ideas for calming down? (cops and citizens)

sterling2000

Barnable wrote: [quote=sterling2000][quote=Barnable]Black people

Again, the ethnicities of the cops, the individual who was tackled and various posters herein have never been established. You and others here continue to make assumptions based on your own ideological bents.

Barnable wrote: your no-nonsense approach to life

Gunshots, petty or not-so-petty street crime and incessant noise in any environment is nonsense, and people who accept these things as just part of city life are nonsensically aiding in perpetuating these social ills.

I read your response as a NO on the drink tip.

I'll have my personal assistant get back to you on that one if my calendar has an opening.

young snitch

sterling2000 wrote: I'm not a lawyer, but the last I checked, possession of narcotics or open alcohol containers on the street were real crimes

possession of beer or a dime bag aren't "real crimes". they're violations. and the enforcement of those laws varies dramatically according to neighborhood. white kids walking down bedford ave in williamsburg aren't frisked and run for warrants -- but black kids walking down bedford in bed-stuy are. along with loitering, such quality of life "crimes" are just excuses for police to selectively target specific groups.

doctorj

djuoh wrote:
"Why not go all the way and also mention preparing you to be a live meat export in times of war and a cheap cog in the military-industrial complex in times of peace?"

Where the hell is this coming from? Are starting to smoke crack? You could fit right in...

Gee, I never thought of it before, but now that you mention it, I can see how someone would mistake the discourse of the intellectual liberal elite for the ramblings of a crackhead. Remind me to rethink my worldview.

But seriously: why do you think the government was willing to pay for your primary and secondary but not tertiary education? And how well do you think they met their goals in your case?

djuoh wrote:
"This sounds like short term thinking to me. Most homeowners don't plan to sell this year, and by increasing the use of 311 this year we can hope things get fixed and there'll be fewer calls needed next year and the year after. Allowing problems to fester sounds like a better way to erode values in the longer term."

Are you an economist and real estate annalist? So all the gunfire and crime will be stopped by these bloggers and then there is going to be an extensive purging of property after the neighborhood is "safe"?!?! Thats hilarious.

I am not an economist or a real estate anal-ist. As a homebuyer, 311 statistics did not affect my choice. I might have vaguely considered broad crime rates but this is a block-by-block city and there's no substitute for local knowledge. Prices aren't affected by fiddling with statistics or sweeping problems under the carpet, they're affected by the reality on the street (among many other factors). And better data ought to mean the city is better able to prioritize resources, which can only be a good thing in the long term. Thus it is incumbent upon residents to help provide the city with that data. What is it about this you don't understand or find amusing?

king without a crown

That kid hangin on the stoop with the dimebag of weed and the 40 oz is most likely the one who is Robbing and harassing the working people of the community. That idiot spitting and smoking blunts is also more likely to be a victim of crime hanging out all day. That being said, buying drugs and using them is still a crime, however trivial it might be to some. Theres a reason why police arent as aggresive in certain neighborhoods. Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope have a large diverse population and yet you rarely hear of over policing in these areas, and yet crime levels are consideredbly lower than Crown Heights. Why is that? I dont see people blasting music on 7 ave and i dont smell blunts burning on Montague St. The problem is the breakdown in the community, where doing Drugs drinking and hanging out all night has become accetable norm. You dont see this in other communities. The fact is, that some people dont tolerate this behavior and shouldnt for that matter. The problem here is not of a concerned community, or the Police Department doing what its supposed to do, but rather the people that sit idly by and point fingers,rather than do something about a growing problem.

sevenoneeighty

King, you rock.

Young snitch, sorry dude, those are defintely crimes. I could look them up and give you the exact laws but it would be a waste of time.

Quality of life crimes ARE important to squash because they can lead to other larger crimes. Graffitti and broken windows in abandoned buildings, abandoned cars are examples of this. These things happens because of the perceprtion (often true) that no one cares and criminally minded people are more likely to do other crimes (break ins, grand larceny, car theft) in areas where it appears the community doesn't care.

The removal of grafitti from the NYC subway was a positive thing that improved the life of many New Yorkers. (That issue is separate from how one may feel about graffitti or the artists themselves).

I say get rid of the guy selling dime bags on my block. I don't want him in front of MY home breaking the law. Young and LeeHo, you seem to be venting your anger at the wrong people. You also seem to be clinging to major stereotypes and cliches about this community and the police. Your misguided "stance" on "keepin' it real" is almost comical - if it weren't so sad.

djuoh

SevenOneEighty wrote: King, you rock.

Young snitch, sorry dude, those are defintely crimes. I could look them up and give you the exact laws but it would be a waste of time.

Quality of life crimes ARE important to squash because they can lead to other larger crimes. Graffitti and broken windows in abandoned buildings, abandoned cars are examples of this. These things happens because of the perceprtion (often true) that no one cares and criminally minded people are more likely to do other crimes (break ins, grand larceny, car theft) in areas where it appears the community doesn't care.

The removal of grafitti from the NYC subway was a positive thing that improved the life of many New Yorkers. (That issue is separate from how one may feel about graffitti or the artists themselves).

I say get rid of the guy selling dime bags on my block. I don't want him in front of MY home breaking the law. Young and LeeHo, you seem to be venting your anger at the wrong people. You also seem to be clinging to major stereotypes and cliches about this community and the police. Your misguided "stance" on "keepin' it real" is almost comical - if it weren't so sad.

Did you you just finish reading the "tipping point", good for you! I love that "broken glass theory"!

sterling2000

http://www.worth1000.com/emailthis.asp?entry=323872

homeowner

young snitch wrote: first off, let's get it straight: decades of brutal and discriminatory law enforcement are the reasons that minority communities have a negative view towards police. cops are meatheaded occupiers from staten island who view the people they're paid to protect as enemies in the proverbial war on crime. so the idea of hollering for the involvment of the military wing of the status quo every time a couple kids smoke weed on the porch or loiter loudly on a corner is just disgusting.

Here's a little perspective for you. Since 1998 seven cops have been killed in the line of duty in NYC. Six of them were minorities. While I'd never say that there are no racist cops in NYC, painting them all with the broad brush is just as ignorant as them assuming that everyone in this neighborhood is a welfare recipient or on drugs.

Carter
Andrews
Nemorin
Parker
Stewart
Enchautegui

Question - What are the circumstances when calling the police is appropriate?

djuoh

Question - What are the circumstances when calling the police is appropriate?

I think this string of posts have been trying to figure that question out. Nobody has a good answer yet.

Circumstance has to be at the root of this. The idea of calling the cops for everything that sounds threatening isn't going to help either. Everyone should know when to cry wolf... There aren't enough cops to comb the entire neighborhood so illegal acts just migrate to the next block.

young snitch

regardless of race, cops are part of an institution thoroughly polluted with a racist and classist ideology. are there some decent people who become cops? sure. but that doesn't mean they're not influenced by an oppressive organization that ultimately makes them part of a system that causes animosity within the communities they target. also, minorities are disproportionaly felled in the line of duty because they work dangerous undercover jobs.

my main point is that people shouldn't call the cops for minor inconveniences. it just feeds the acrimony between largely outsider police and residents, which, in turn, makes solving real crime more difficult.

neene

LeeHo wrote: So, it seems as if there were definately gun shots fired early Thursday morning, seemingly from a roof somewhere between Washington and Classon, either on Sterling or St. Johns. The problem with overreacting and calling 311 and 911 all the time is what followed afterwards

Young Snitch wrote: my main point is that people shouldn't call the cops for minor inconveniences. it just feeds the acrimony between largely outsider police and residents, which, in turn, makes solving real crime more difficult.

getting back to the beginning of the thread:
are gunshots a minor inconvenience or acceptable 911 material?

leeho

Tip of the Iceberg
Is the problem just worse in New York City? Evidence indicates that the cultural basis for racial profiling is broad based. A 1995 survey published in the Journal of Alcohol and Drug Education reports that when asked to close their eyes and envision a drug addict, 95% of those polled envisioned a black person. But statistics show that the percentage of black American drug users is similar to the percentage of blacks in the total populations; 13%. The percentage of American drug users that are white is 72%. Even though 13% of American drug users are black, they are 38% of those arrested, 59% of those convicted, and 74% of those sentenced to prison for drug offenses.

This is the ACLU's DWB News Archive.
Know your rights if you are stopped by the police, the FBI, the INS or the Customs Service.

http://www.mlwebworks.com/dangerous/nypd.html
Our city cops, in title only

April 7, 1997

In a mayoral election where at least two candidates have raised the issue of residency requirements for police brass, here's a look by Newsday at where the top NYPD commanders live.

Since it is never the intention of this column to embarrass anyone, let's just say that the newly-appointed first deputy commissioner lives in upstate Orange County and the chief of department lives in Rockland. Of the nine bureau chiefs listed in the department roster, the chief of the transit bureau, the chief of the organized crime control bureau and the chief of personnel all live in Westchester. The supervising chief surgeon lives in Nassau.

The other bureau chiefs - Chief of Patrol Wilbur Chapman, Chief of Internal Affairs Charles Campisi, Chief of Criminal Justice Charles Reuther, Chief of the Housing Bureau Jules Martin and Chief of Detectives William Allee - live in the city.

Of the 17 assistant chiefs, nine live in the city, according to department records. Among the eight living outside New York are the borough commanders of the Bronx, Manhattan, Queens North and Brooklyn South.

Of the 27 deputy chiefs (a rank that in the NYPD is below assistant chief), 14 live in the city, 13 live outside it. At the lesser rank of inspector, 32 of the 64 live outside the city. Of 111 deputy inspectors, 65 - or 59 percent - live outside the city.

An estimated 45 percent of all New York cops live outside the city.

http://nypdconfidential.com/columns/1997/970407.html

leeho

Gunshots are 911 material! I already wrote that.

stacey

djuoh wrote:
Why would that business man inform the police? Its easy to call someone from the privacy of your own home with bullet proof curtains (I need to get some of those, can you get them at the local 99 cent store) He could jeopardize his well being by telling anything to the cops. Think about it...

If you read what I said closely I said he should make this known not to the cops but at the PUBLIC meetings. There is also the Civilian Complaint Review Board - Im sorry but this is something that MUST be told and made aware of. Police brutality and illegal search and seizures should be reported right away and should never ever be tolerated.

young snitch

the civilian complaint review board kind of sucks. by all means, report it to them for statistical compilation, but don't expect anything to come of it in the form of justice unless you've been beaten.

alafairnadia

young snitch wrote: the civilian complaint review board kind of sucks. by all means, report it to them for statistical compilation, but don't expect anything to come of it in the form of justice unless you've been beaten.

so ... sorta like the "crime" stats pulled from 311 ...

leeho

BTW, the business owner on Washington Ave. did file a police complaint against the kid that got fucked up twice for simply walking down the street!

homeowner

Okay, if I follow everything here correctly gunshots are sometimes okay to call 911...People smoking weed and noise are not okay to call 311 for...and everything else is a gray area?

Minor inconveniences or things that sound threatening (yelling and screaming, strange odors, suspicious activity, loud music) are not appropriate to call the police, because the police are only going to come and harass innocent people and are probably not going to be related to crimes anyway. The police need to focus on solving real crimes.

We also should not call 311 to report things like broken streetlights or traffic signals, potholes on our blocks, trees that have branches falling off, or rats because those reports will be used to compile data that will drive the value of our homes down and foil our plans to flip our houses into the hands of rubes from out of town for millions of dollars. But if we are planning to keep our homes then the holes in the streets, darkened areas and rats will keep gentrifiers out and allow us to maintain our quality of life. Plus 311 is part of the oppressive organizations that are designed to maintain the status quo.

leeho

Jesus Christ? What more needs to be said? Is this okay? But not that? Just call 311 and ask them which report should be reported. Let it rest already.

Chalk another one up to the ineffectiveness of stuffy assholes congregating on a forum! Bravo to all! Let's just close this post, look forward and disagree about what constitutes something else people can't agree on and have to become assholes to prove a point.

Let us all tip our hats, as well, to the fine, fine job the boys in blue do patrolling our neighborhoods. Let's further toast their rides home; back to Rockland and Suffolk counties where they run to escape the babaric lives in the city, shall we?

Furthermore, I propose that we dip our paper cups in champale, the most expensive of exotic malt liquors and tip our hats to Why-Fi and congratulate him on his policing theories and recall the swell days of Diallo. (Were you even living here then, Why-Fi?)

Let's also encourage the don't sass a cop/bend to power and authoritarian rule of Sterling 2000's wonderful take on verbally having it out with police when they're in the wrong. Nice job, ya Orwellian sucker.

Let us pick daisies in Prospect Park and enjoy the thought of young boys being tackled onto the concrete for simply turning the corner. Is this not utopia? Eden, maybe?

I see lights, blinding and wonderful.
Blue and red,
spinning throught the night as young men are pushed to the ground and beaten,
horrible words spoken out of uniformed mouths.
Wonderful, wonderful indeed.

carnivore

LeeHo wrote: Let's just close this post, look forward and disagree about what constitutes something else people can't agree on and have to become assholes to prove a point.

The irony here is deafening. :roll:

whyfi

LeeHo wrote: Diallo

I fail to see the relevance of your reference. Care to explain where you see a connection between 311/911 calls and the shooting of a man that (supposedly) matched the description of a rapist? Or were you hoping that the mere mention of a tragic event would make people solemnly and sagely nod their heads, distracting them from the non-connection?

breuckelen

I think I have found a new religion!

The Daily Heights Blog!

I am going to call the police everytime I hear a loud noise or see a scary black person and then I am going burn an effigy in the name of all the ignorant, incestual preachers and followers that run this site.

I slipped on a chicken bone that was tossed on the sidewalk and called 311. I hope they pick it up so that the potential white folks that are moving in don't get deterred from purchasing the property next to the crack house that I live in. There were some scary doods laughing on the corner, I feel so threatened...

What should I do about it Daily Heights Blog masters? Please help me!

neene

In light of this discussion and the one taking place here:
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=59715&highlight=#59715

I am posting the following meetings:

• Community Board 8 police committee meeting WILL take place:
  Thursday (10/5) at 7 pm
  77th Pct - 127 Utica Avenue (at Bergen)

• 77th Community Council meeting
  Monday (10/9) at 7:30
  Sacred Heart Church - 938 Bergen Street (corner of Franklin)

I don’t know which is the most effective committee to be dealing with,
so I intend to go to both

The talking we do amongst ourselves is good for clarifying issues and getting everyone’s street lingo up to date
but maybe it's time to take these feelings and this energy from the virtual into the real world.

I have also posted information here:
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=59887#59887
about a letter writing campaign to get the impact zone reinstated, if you support this please consider participating

leeho

Why-Fi,

My man, the king of distractions! I love that you are trying to call me on your own game. C'mon? Self-Preservation for tackling a kid? Shooting a man 41 times becasue he looked like a rapist. Are you out of your mind? Maybe you should move to some fucking 3rd world country where regimes think the same way you do! What if some Asian kid was accused of robbing someone in the hood and the cops rolled up on you and beat you simply because "you look like an Asian robber." Does that hit home? Shit, according to your fucked up logic if you look like someone or are near something that just happened than the cops can do whatever they want to you in the name of justice?! That makes me so sick that I could just vomit!

So if someone looks like someone they are to be stripped of their civil rights. You are the man, Why-Fi. Truly a believer in changing things for the better, huh?

It is ironic that you say that I have been trying to get this post away from the topic. I have, at least three times, tried to get it back on topic. You suck at trying to make lame duck points and I'd love to tell you that to your face.

And BTW, do you remember the city during Diallo? Answer the question!



Is anyone else offended by this man's comments in regards to this?

jjb

Geez, Lee Ho, drama queen much? Having read this entire thread, I don't think anybody here is denying that racial profiling and police brutality exist and are serious problems. And certainly, nobody, including Why Fi, is suggesting that the murder of Amadou Diallo was justified! What people are pointing out is that there is little-to-no causal relationship between reporting a problem to 311/911 (or discussing it here on these boards) and somebody getting beat up/shot by out-of-control cops.

sterling2000

LeeHo wrote: Let's also encourage the don't sass a cop/bend to power and authoritarian rule of Sterling 2000's wonderful take on verbally having it out with police when they're in the wrong. Nice job, ya Orwellian sucker.

Thank you.

In the spirit of supporting a sass-free world otherwise plagued with deeply-rooted anger that is obviously way too complicated for any of us to solve, I'm sorry the whole discussion herein has gotten you so very upset.

All's well that's Orwell.

djuoh

JJB wrote: Geez, Lee Ho, drama queen much? Having read this entire thread, I don't think anybody here is denying that racial profiling and police brutality exist and are serious problems. And certainly, nobody, including Why Fi, is suggesting that the murder of Amadou Diallo was justified! What people are pointing out is that there is little-to-no causal relationship between reporting a problem to 311/911 (or discussing it here on these boards) and somebody getting beat up/shot by out-of-control cops.

I can't agree with the idea that calling 311/911 doesn't cause a stir in the neighborhood. The majority of frequent posters answer problems with 311/911. The more people cry wolf (as I have said before) The more agitated the local community is going to be. If everyone wants the the local community agitated through the brutality of the police, then we are going to have more problems. There are serious crimes and then there are minor issues like kids smoking weed. What does weed do to people? Smoking marijuana can relax a person and elevate their mood. What a threating idea?

neene

i don't think anyone is arguing the pros & cons of smoking dope

buying and selling drugs in a neighborhood results in increased street violence: muggings, shootings and turf wars.
a neighborhood that is seen as being tolerant towards crime,
is,
well,
tolerant towards crime
Last month Kevin Faryind got his face blown off on franklin, who is crying wolf?

jjb

djuoh wrote: [quote=JJB]Geez, Lee Ho, drama queen much? Having read this entire thread, I don't think anybody here is denying that racial profiling and police brutality exist and are serious problems. And certainly, nobody, including Why Fi, is suggesting that the murder of Amadou Diallo was justified! What people are pointing out is that there is little-to-no causal relationship between reporting a problem to 311/911 (or discussing it here on these boards) and somebody getting beat up/shot by out-of-control cops.

I can't agree with the idea that calling 311/911 doesn't cause a stir in the neighborhood. The majority of frequent posters answer problems with 311/911. The more people cry wolf (as I have said before) The more agitated the local community is going to be. If everyone wants the the local community agitated through the brutality of the police, then we are going to have more problems. There are serious crimes and then there are minor issues like kids smoking weed. What does weed do to people? Smoking marijuana can relax a person and elevate their mood. What a threating idea?


Hmmm. First of all, the people who are calling 311/911 are, themselves, PART of the local community. It's not like A) you need to be of a particular race or class, or to have lived here your entire life, to be part of the community or ALL calls to 311/911 come from Evil White Gentrifiers.

What's annoying and racist about certain posts on this thread is the assumption that only middle-class white folk care, or take the trouble to complain, about quality-of-life issues such as loud noise at all hours of the night, kids smoking weed on their doorsteps, or random gunfire on their block. I would imagine that THE VAST MAJORITY of people in the local community prefer to enjoy a decent night's sleep, a little respect for their space and property, and safe walks down local streets.

Second, regardless of WHO calls the cops, how often they call, and whether their calls are truly necessary ... if cops can't discern between a legit call and somebody crying "wolf" and, especially, can't handle a call without harming an innocent person, then there is a problem with the COPS, not with the cop-callers, and the solution lies in changing the way cops behave, not in getting people to ignore problems in their neighborhood for fear of riling up a racist cop.

djuoh

Hmmm. First of all, the people who are calling 311/911 are, themselves, PART of the local community. It's not like A) you need to be of a particular race or class, or to have lived here your entire life, to be part of the community or ALL calls to 311/911 come from Evil White Gentrifiers.

What's annoying and racist about certain posts on this thread is the assumption that only middle-class white folk care, or take the trouble to complain, about quality-of-life issues such as loud noise at all hours of the night, kids smoking weed on their doorsteps, or random gunfire on their block. I would imagine that THE VAST MAJORITY of people in the local community prefer to enjoy a decent night's sleep, a little respect for their space and property, and safe walks down local streets.

Second, regardless of WHO calls the cops, how often they call, and whether their calls are truly necessary ... if cops can't discern between a legit call and somebody crying "wolf" and, especially, can't handle a call without harming an innocent person, then there is a problem with the COPS, not with the cop-callers, and the solution lies in changing the way cops behave, not in getting people to ignore problems in their neighborhood for fear of riling up a racist cop.


Now the number one question, since we have gotten here...

How do you make a cop less racist?