The Dead in Iraq

leeho

Wow, so the 3,000th soldier died and I just learned about an investigation that was published in October that estimates that 655,000 more Iraqi's have died since the 2003 invasion due not only to bombings, but to other war complications as well. That is simply disgusting and is rising to the levels of an indirect genocide. What the fuck are we doing just sitting here and really doing nothing about it and celebrating the execution of one shitty man? Happy fucking New Year?

This is a link to the buried study published by the Washington Post in October. This was way buried and by watching the daily talk shows I learned about as the most buried story of the year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

drano

This viewed was echoed by Sarah Leah Whitson, an official of Human Rights Watch in New York, who said, "We have no reason to question the findings or the accuracy" of the survey.

"I expect that people will be surprised by these figures," she said. "I think it is very important that, rather than questioning them, people realize there is very, very little reliable data coming out of Iraq."

Why ask why? Drink Bud Dry. Seriously though, if Bush came out with a smug take-my-word-for-it gem like that you would hear the laughter from Park Slope in Baghdad.

Anyhow, I don't recall the study being buried, but here's more about it if you should wish to ignore Ms. Whitson's suggestion:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2523

Edit: BTW, nothing against Human Rights Watch, in general I think they're great.

leeho

C'mon that is an ultra-conservitive think tank, Drano! Of course they'd debunk the study! For Christ sake, Wolfowitz is listed as an old member of the Board of Advisors! I wrote a little bit about each member of the Board of Advisors. See for yourself. Oddly enough, most served under Conservative leaders and have dirct ties to government agencies.

Here is the complete list:


Board of Advisors

The Washington Institute's Board of Advisors includes luminaries from the diplomatic and policymaking arena, the business world, and the media. This bipartisan group of statemen provides ongoing advice and counsel both collectively and individually to our staff and leadership.


Warren Christopher
Secretary of State-Under Clinton 93-97

Lawrence S. Eagleburger
Secretary of State-Under Bush I, has also served various posts under Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush II

Alexander Haig
Secretary of State-Under Reagan 81-82, also served under Nixon and worked with Kissinger

Max M. Kampelman
Senior Diplomat-Concientious objector to WWII, then renounced pacifism and became a lawyer

Samuel W. Lewis
U.S. ambassador to Israel-77'-85.

Edward Luttwak
Center for Strategic and
International Studies-Consultant to the Sec. of Defense

Michael Mandelbaum
Johns Hopkins School of
Advanced International
Studies-Don't know much and hard to find info. Wrote a book supporting America's expanded role/dominance in Foreign Affairs this year.


Robert McFarlane
National Security Advisor-to Reagan and played parts in Iran-Contra, tried to commit suicide in 87 and was considred to be a criminal by witholding evidence from Congress, but was pardoned by Daddy Bush.

Martin Peretz
Editor in Chief and Chairman,
New Republic-Weird fellow, a kinda neocon in regards to Israel, yet a strong Democrat who overwhelmingly has and still continues to support Al Gore.

Richard Perle
Assistant Secretary of Defense-Under Reagan, and a hardcore supporter of conservative think tanks.

James G. Roche
Secretary of the Air Force-01'-05'. An executive with weapons manufacturer, Northorp Grumman

George P. Shultz
Secretary of State-82-89' (Reagan Years, again!), Sec. of Labor 69-70', Secretary of Treasure 72-74' (Nixon Years)

Paul Wolfowitz*
Deputy Secretary of Defense-No need to mention this guy.

R. James Woolsey
Director of Central Intelligence-93-95. Woolsey was among the first to point the finger at Iraq in the immediate days following the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. During the second Bush administration, he has been strong proponent of the war in Iraq.

Mortimer Zuckerman
Publisher, U.S. News and World Report-Owner of that mag and the NY Daily News, wrote against supporting NYU's unionization of Adjunct/TA's, the 382nd richest man in the world by Forbes.


* resigned upon entry to government service, 2001

drano

Argumentum ad hominem? Whatever you may think of their board, the points they raise are worthy of consideration. Ultra-conservative might be a bit strong, although I confess I don't know what Warren Christopher is up to these days.

I took exception to the "Just believe it" sentiment expressed by Ms. Whitson. As "they" say, for a skeptic no proof is possible, and for a believer, none is necessary. I try to split the difference where possible.

I maintan that the study and the critique are both worth reading, and I further maintain that the study was in no way "buried" - it made headlines when it came out, and the very link you provide is proof of that. I'm sorry if you hadn't heard about it until now.

Edit: An interesting discussion from what should be a politcally acceptable source here: http://iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php?PHPSESSID=cfc36ff3be36f210123c124122e962a7. In retrospect I should have thrown that one out there first, but it has been a few months and I had to recall what I read and where. Apologies.

leeho

You're right about being sorry for not having heard of it until now. I'm bummed about it, but still think the story was rather buried. Or at least ignored for the most part. Those numbers should be discussed in detail, just as the number of American troops who have died has been and continues to be discussed in detail.

The report you have posted does all it can to debunk the study to support the Bush Doctrine.

drano

LeeHo wrote: You're right about being sorry for not having heard of it until now. I'm bummed about it, but still think the story was rather buried. Or at least ignored for the most part. Those numbers should be discussed in detail, just as the number of American troops who have died has been and continues to be discussed in detail.

The report you have posted does all it can to debunk the study to support the Bush Doctrine.

I posted two reports. Whatever you may think of The Washington Institute, they are serious and well respected - and while not without their politics, they are certainly not "ultra-conservative" in any conventional sense that the term might be used. But enough of that. I took pains (well, not pains I guess - I just had to track it down) to post another critique from an openly anti-war organization that has been doing solid work in the same area.

In a way it doesn't matter - we all know it's bad in any case - but in my view turning the shit off to figure out the real problem will hasten a real solution, or at least the closest thing to it that we can still hope for.

raw

Subject: Re: The Dead in Iraq

LeeHo wrote: Wow, so the 3,000th soldier died and I just learned about an investigation that was published in October that estimates that 655,000 more Iraqi's have died since the 2003 invasion due not only to bombings, but to other war complications as well. That is simply disgusting and is rising to the levels of an indirect genocide. What the fuck are we doing just sitting here and really doing nothing about it and celebrating the execution of one shitty man? Happy fucking New Year?

This is a link to the buried study published by the Washington Post in October. This was way buried and by watching the daily talk shows I learned about as the most buried story of the year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

The image of Saddam Hussein with the rope around his neck makes me ashamed to be a member of the human race. Murderers killing a murderer. Where will it end? Do people actually believe that the execution of the Saddam Hussein will bring peace to Iraq?

bklyntransplant

Do people actually believe that the execution of the Saddam Hussein will bring peace to Iraq?

And now, he's been made a martyr. Just in time for Bush's new "sacrifice" scheme.

alafairnadia

this whole cell phone video thing is so disturbing and upsetting. the taunting - wasn't it bad enough that he knew he was going to die? god. it's disgusting.

boygabriel

Subject: Re: The Dead in Iraq

raw wrote: The image of Saddam Hussein with the rope around his neck makes me ashamed to be a member of the human race. Murderers killing a murderer. Where will it end? Do people actually believe that the execution of the Saddam Hussein will bring peace to Iraq?

on the one hand, I agree and I felt very similar emotions.

on the other hand, iraq is so f*cked up right now, and their concept of everyday life/reality is so far removed from mine, that i hesitate to even try put myself in their emotional/moral universe.

post-colonial or post-dictator socities are truly the most f*cked up on earth. and normal standards of justice & morality become completely irrelevant and the hanging of a former dictator can become far more than just a 'sentance reached in a court of justice'

escap

Did anyone think it was remotely conceivable, ever, that he'd avoid the death penalty? The death penalty is legal in Iraq (and much of America in case you forgot), and this is a guy who was responsible for as many as 2 million deaths. And was being tried by the very people who hated him most! Come on, the whole trial was a sham and a waste of time--all it accomplished was the death of three lawyers and a judge, and the creation of a media frenzy and political distraction. They could have a saved a lot of time by just shooting him in the first place. Of course it won't bring peace to Iraq! I believe only outright victory by the Shiites over the Sunnis will accomplish that. But perhaps in time at least Saddam will cease to be a distraction, and I doubt his death will significantly add to the already horrific violence.

doctorj

Subject: Re: The Dead in Iraq

Boygabriel wrote:
post-colonial or post-dictator socities are truly the most f*cked up on earth.

Yeah, but not all of them. Post-dictator Portugal, Spain and Greece seem to be doing ok and things are on the up and up in Slovenia and Croatia. Post-colonial Australia and New Zealand are also ok and despite its ongoing problems, even South Africa is comparatively high-functioning. You could also call the world's largest democracy, India, post-colonial.