New to the Area, Getting Some Mixed Opinions.. Please Help!

hellodarling

Hi all, we've just moved to the area (yesterday, to be exact) and after reading the super fun postings about gunshots a block or so from my place (Park/Classon), I'm a little... nervous. Admittedly, I could be classified as one of those yuppies who came over from Manhattan, but... okay, that's all I've got, but I don't expect Starbucks on every corner or double-wide strollers everywhere (I'd move to the Slope for that).

One post said not to go out at night, don't carry your ipod or cell phones (I figured that one already), don't wear anything shiny or nice, et cetera. So here's what I need to know: is this a decent neighborhood or should I constantly worry about getting jumped? I'm exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean

Please don't bash me for being naive, or a yuppie-type, or new. We just wanted a nice place to live, in a big apartment that we can actually afford, and are hoping this is a good neighborhood, considering we just signed up for a year here...

whyfi

Don't worry, just be alert.

cythren

When I'm alone, I avoid walking on the side streets after 8 or 9pm. I stick to Eastern Parkway.

After awhile, you'll know which blocks are generally safer and which are sketchier. Stuff can happen anywhere, but it's more likely when you're walking down a deserted stretch of road without any open shops or restaurants. At night, stick to brightly lit areas.

Even during daylight hours, always stay aware of your surroundings. Don't hide the fact that you're looking around, checking out the landscape, and keeping an eye on the surroundings. That will make you a less attractive target. If there are some scary types around, you're probably OK as long as there are several other regular people out and about in the vicinity, and nearby shops open.

Get a security gate for your fire escape window. Buy an extra deadbolt lock for your door, so you know that noone else has a key unless *you* give a key out.

Also, be cautious during off-rush hours in the subway stations. Take the exit where you see other people going out rather than the "road less traveled". Get to know the station, and strategize about which exit is better for you.

It also helps to get to know the neighbors in your building. I think buildings where people know each other (as in, recognize each other, chat in the hallways, kind of thing) are safer because you know when someone unfamiliar, who might be an intruder, is in your building. Hope that your neighbors are not lax about keeping the front doors locked and that they don't let strangers in behind them (unfortunately, it seems like this happens a lot).

hellodarling

Good to know... we live in a brownstone, so it's just us, our downstairs neighbor, and our landlord's mama in the basement apartment. We're about a half a block from the subway, so hopefully that's a good thing Good to know about the deadbolts - all we have on the doors is the general NYC-ish lock with the three prongs and you turn the big button to lock it - did that make any sense whatsoever? Every apartment I've lived in here has had them! Is EP a little out of the way since we're on Park Place? If it's better/safer to get to restaurants and stuff that way (by taking, say, Classon to EP), it's totally worth it!

cythren

Well, I mentioned E.P. because it makes sense for me based on my location. Washington seems OK too, because it is busy with traffic at all hours, and there are always people around. Franklin is busy too, and has people on the street, but it seems chaotic and sketchy. I know there are drug dealers right around there hanging around, and I see groups of rowdy adolescents around Franklin. My sense is that Franklin is not so good after dark.

I don't know your exact block, but what I would do is walk all around the area with a friend, after dark, and scope out the different routes to the subway, restaurants, and main streets. Pay attention to your instincts and see how the different routes *feel*. See which streets have doorman buildings or other spots like bodegas that could be a safe place to duck into in a bad situation. See if there are parts of the street where the streetlights are out, or where there is a section of commercial buildings closed (and deserted) after 5pm. Those would be areas to avoid.

If you do this, you'll have a sense of the best route to take and what landmarks you have access to when you need to walk alone after dark in the area. You'll be informed and know your surroundings.

gingerolive

Hi everyone I'm a newcomer to this site, but not a newcomer to Brooklyn. (So forgive me if my post is not reading correctly, I'll get it together)

It's natural to be uncertain when you're a new comer to any neighborhood, especially when you hear "fun postings about gunshots". I was born and raised in Brooklyn (and lived in quite a few nabes), so although I'm not immune to gunshots, I don't feel as threatened by them (maybe because I've never been shot at mugged or attacked).

There are just some general precautions I take when I walk around any neighborhood in Brooklyn or anywhere for that matter.

• Never walk down dimly lit sidestreets alone
• Act like I belong in the neighborhood
• Befriend my neighbors (always helps to know someone that has your back, helps to foster community)
• Lock your doors (a given in any NYC nabe)
• Lastly don't walk around afraid (fear can be sensed rather quickly)

I hope yuu enjoy your stay in CH, you have nothing to fear. Every nabe goes through it's ups and downs. CH is on it's way up, consider yourself one of the fortunate ones to get in before rents get too rediculous.

All the Best...

anniewilde

I live right near the corner of EP and Franklin--and I'd say this--Franklin at night isn't sketchy--unless you're just downright afraid of black people. Yes, there are teenagers on Franklin--of course! They live there! But as far as much of anything happening to you, I strongly doubt it. The overall sense I get about Franklin is that it's fine--but I would also give a few other suggestions, which I've given before...

1. You live in a black neighborhood. If you're just looking for "cheap rent" and a "big apartment," then you might have been better off looking one of the further off but equally cheap white neighborhoods if being around blacks makes you automatically nervous.

2. That said, there's no denying that there's crime in this area--although I think, as many people have said, that you're less of a target if you "blend in."

3. May I suggest this to you and to other prospective inhabitants? If you have zero black friends, are nervous talking to black people, and find the thought of communicating with black neighbors in a largely black community frightening--then you shouldn't be living here.

4. On the other hand, if you're able to actually see the people around you as human beings, then you'll be fine. But I do suggest examining that. Communities are living organisms. If you were terrified of Jews/extremely anti Semitic (not a rare thing in NYC), I would say the same thing about moving into the heavily Lubavitcher/Hasidic areas.

5. It makes me sad, with all the focus on crime/property values, that there's so little focus on issues of integration, diversity, and human interaction. Is it all really that zero-sum? Are people really so short sighted and so narrowly focused that they don't even care about thinking about what it means to live around people of different races and cultures?

6. Food for thought. Welcome other's opinions, although I'm somewhat afraid of being attacked. Take what I'm saying as one person's POV.

bendy broad

anniewilde wrote: if you're able to actually see the people around you as human beings, then you'll be fine. But I do suggest examining that. Communities are living organisms.

Word.

I find that I feel more comfortable in a new neighborhood if I make a concerted effort to make eye-contact with everyone I pass. If they look away, that's cool. If they make eye-contact back, I say hi, or smile and nod at the very least. It may seem forced at first, but over time, you start to see the same people around each day, pleasantries become chit-chat, chit-chat turns into conversations, you get to know your neighbors, you slowly start to feel like you're a part of a community.

I've noticed that there are some (some, not all) people who move to neighborhoods in Brooklyn from Manhattan but still behave as if they live in Midtown or some other area where anonymity is the norm. That not only doesn't fly here with residents who've been here for all or most of their lives, but negates some of the benefits of moving here, in my opinion.

gingerolive

Bendy Broad wrote: [quote=anniewilde] if you're able to actually see the people around you as human beings, then you'll be fine. But I do suggest examining that. Communities are living organisms.

Word.

I find that I feel more comfortable in a new neighborhood if I make a concerted effort to make eye-contact with everyone I pass. If they look away, that's cool. If they make eye-contact back, I say hi, or smile and nod at the very least. It may seem forced at first, but over time, you start to see the same people around each day, pleasantries become chit-chat, chit-chat turns into conversations, you get to know your neighbors, you slowly start to feel like you're a part of a community.

I've noticed that there are some (some, not all) people who move to neighborhoods in Brooklyn from Manhattan but still behave as if they live in Midtown or some other area where anonymity is the norm. That not only doesn't fly here with residents who've been here for all or most of their lives, but negates some of the benefits of moving here, in my opinion.I agree at least a head nod is a step in the right direction. That's how you make friends and that could lead to people looking out for you. In my opinion it's just not cool to pass people by day in a nd day out and not give an acknowledgement. Especially when you see them everyday.

x-brooklynite

anniewilde wrote:

1. You live in a black neighborhood. If you're just looking for "cheap rent" and a "big apartment," then you might have been better off looking one of the further off but equally cheap white neighborhoods if being around blacks makes you automatically nervous.

Cheap white neighborhoods. Maspeth, Queens?

5. It makes me sad, with all the focus on crime/property values, that there's so little focus on issues of integration, diversity, and human interaction. Is it all really that zero-sum? Are people really so short sighted and so narrowly focused that they don't even care about thinking about what it means to live around people of different races and cultures?

Yes, particularly if they are at the least somewhat affluent. They don't believe there is anything to be gained from interacting with people who don't look like them and aren't like themselves.

hellodarling

I understand that this is a predominantly black neighborhood, and... so? I don't mean to sound flippant, but as mentioned numerous times on this board: there are scary fratty white boys-next-door. I just wanted to know if this is the type of neighborhood where if I say hi to someone or smile at them, if I'll be more likely to be knifed or more likely to get a smile back Again, sounding flippant... but seriously, mine wasn't a black-white question. It was a safe v. unsafe question. So thank y'all once again for your advice, it's much appreciated!

gingerolive

hellodarling wrote: I understand that this is a predominantly black neighborhood, and... so? I don't mean to sound flippant, but as mentioned numerous times on this board: there are scary fratty white boys-next-door. I just wanted to know if this is the type of neighborhood where if I say hi to someone or smile at them, if I'll be more likely to be knifed or more likely to get a smile back Again, sounding flippant... but seriously, mine wasn't a black-white question. It was a safe v. unsafe question. So thank y'all once again for your advice, it's much appreciated!

To answer your question, no this is not the type of neighborhood that if you say hello to someone they will knife you in the back. I've lived in CH for a while and nothing has happened to me. I've lived and was born in brooklyn for that matter and have never been attacked. You sound like you live in constant fear? If so, have you considered another nabe? In any case crime is everywhere, even in the midwest. If you appear in person as fearful as you sound then criminals can sense fear. No disrespect intended.

hellodarling

*sigh* I don't live in constant fear and wasn't worried at all until reading the posts on here. Can't really consider another neighborhood since we just signed a year lease here... anyway, I'm not some pansy who freaks out when they leave Manhattan.

anniewilde

I'm sorry--but the only things you've mentioned about this neighborhood have been about two things:

The "cheap and big" apartment you'll live in--

And your sense of "fear." I'm glad you "know it's a black neighborhood"--but do you think that the actual people you live around are important only as a source of either potential economic exploitation or fear?

This neighborhood is a community, or a series of communities and individuals--and questions that revolve entirely around seeing oneself as a little island are not, from what I can tell, wildly welcomed by anybody.

Again, I would imagine that if you have no black friends and aren't comfortable with black people, then you shouldn't live here. I'm sure you can sublet your apartment.

There are a number of choices. But as far as this place goes, it's true--if you walk around looking as if your main relationship to the place is a desire to take advantage of the low rent that the darker skin and lower socioeconomic status of the inhabitants has created, while looking at them with barely concealed fear, disdain, or just plain utter lack of recognition--while people here may be black--they aren't stupid, and you won't really come off too well. It's actually a bit village like here, and people do pay attention to each other. It's not Manhattan.


Do you really think that you live in a bubble? I'm just a little bit shocked. If Texas is really on your mind, though, I'm not sure how terribly shocked I am. I've spent some time in Texas--and while most of the people were nice, there were some interesting...attitudes there. I was attacked/harassed a few times--by--gasp--white people from Texas. I guess I should have been "too afraid" to live there? I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. In fact, if you look over the history of the United States of A-Merica, you'll find that in Texas, as in most other places, it's largely blacks who've had to fear whites. Today, still, virtually all crime is between the same race. The person most likely to murder a woman under 40 is her husband or boyfriend, regardless of race.

Unfortunately, your own attitude reminds me very much of many people who move from backwards/rural/bible belt/midwestern places to NYC, having gotten a B.A degree and an entry level job in finance or something similar.

I wonder--should there be a suggested reading list for such newcomers? A citizenship test for NYC? I'm not sure our city really needs this kind of callousness. I compare these attitudes with those of the 50 year old black Navy veteran who recently saved a young white kid on the subway from certain death.

Hellodarling, would you even bother to notice that somebody else was on distress? Because you sound to me as if you really don't get it.

You really believe that you're "likely to be knifed if you live here?" I'll tell you what--

I really think that your attitude is an insult to this community and that it's racially coded.

hellodarling

What?! How did this turn into a racial conversation?? For the record, that was never my intent and I sincerely apologize if you feel that way. My concern has ALWAYS been to find out more about our neighborhood, as I would like to be an active participant and not living in a "bubble." I merely posted the question because others had mentioned areas to stay away from, and I was wondering what more seasoned citizens would consider those areas to be. That's all. I don't care if you're white or black or purple and I don't appreciate being accused of racism or being closed-minded or whatever. If I only wanted to be around closed-minded whitebread folks, I'd move back to Texas. But I don't, so I'm not.

I'll be sure to stay off any future threads for fear that it might turn into something like this again; I was just hoping to meet some neighbors. To everyone, thanks for the sincere assistance and recommendations. It's appreciated.

hellodarling

And for the record, anniewilde, it's posts like these that made me ask about the safety of the area, not racial motivation:

anniewilde wrote: I am writing to try to bring the extreme gravity of this situation to everybody's attention. There is no media coverage, and our lives are seriously at risk to even be walking down the street. At least two of these shootings occurred in broad daylight. I have spoken with a few of the police on the streets, and everytime I've come home in the past few days, I've heard about yet another shooting. This is happening on Franklin, Lincoln Place, and other nearby streets. Meanwhile, landlords are charging exorbitant rents for what is really an extremely unsafe area. We need to bring this to the attention of the right people--the media who will make sure that the greedy landlords push to get the police presence we need. I suggest posting this info widely in Brooklyn blogs, and trying to get the word to other media outlets. There was not just one shooting. Or two. Or three. There have been at least four.

ben

I'm a bit disturbed about the direction that this thread has taken. hellodarling posted on this board with great things to say about the neighborhood including how she found it to be very friendly and really looked forward to meeting neighbors, etc.

After digging deeper on these boards she saw reference to crime which it did not appear was on her mind previously, i.e. she didn't move into the neighborhood being scared because of whatever, rather this was brought to her attention by the multiple posts on these boards about the crime that does exist.

When she asked about it and if there's anything she needed to watch out for, high crime areas to avoid, etc. some folks dubbed her ms. whitey racist who should move back to texas if she can't deal with living with black people. This is appalling.

Way to welcome your new neighbors.

bojolais

In my opinion, Anniewild has a chip on her shoulder and turns every conversation into a race war. I can barely stomach her posts anymore. She is the same woman who claims she lives in CH instead of Park Slope because she wants diversity. I think that is BS and she is here because it's more affordable just like the majority of people. Anyway, welcome to the neighborhood "hellodarling." There are lots of nice folks here and you will enjoy it. We moved in in May 2006 and are happy with the neighborhood.

soulrebel

I'm Black and I recently moved into the area, right by Anniewild it seems. I did the same thing the post-starter did, ask around about the neighborhood. I don't see the wrong in asking about the safety of a neighborhood in which you plan on living in.

ashlee spears

I've noticed that there are some (some, not all) people who move to neighborhoods in Brooklyn from Manhattan but still behave as if they live in Midtown or some other area where anonymity is the norm. That not only doesn't fly here with residents who've been here for all or most of their lives, but negates some of the benefits of moving here, in my opinion.

i think this is a good point, but i'm definitely one of the people who doesn't make eye contact or say hi much to anyone. i don't do it to be unfriendly, but as a single woman living alone in ch i'm not comfortable with looking every man i see in the eye and having him take it the wrong way. i do this with men of all races, and i guess it just became such a habit that i ignore women, too. i'm not saying that i'm doing the right thing- i think i do need to be friendlier, and i do say hi back and make conversation with people who are friendly to me- but i guess i'm just saying it's not always a race thing. sometimes it's a sexist thing instead

that said, i do often get scared by all the bad crime statistics, but the reality is that most people here are pretty nice. i was shocked by the amount of "merry christmas" and "happy new year"s i got while walking around the neighborhood. i lived in astoria for 4 years and i don't think i got one random holiday wish there!

hellodarling

Cool, thanks guys I'm really excited about becoming part of the neighborhood here; I keep hearing the good stuff about community and great places to eat/shop/hangout/whatever interspersed with the bad, and I'm optimistic.

Random: I wondered this morning, while waiting for the shuttle at Park Place, how many of you I likely see walking through the neighborhood, at the subway stops, et cetera. It was a nice thought

Oh yes, I also said I wouldn't post on here any more; it was a hasty comment thrown out there when I was pissed. I love these boards... probably should get off them and start working though

gingerolive

hellodarling wrote: *sigh* I don't live in constant fear and wasn't worried at all until reading the posts on here. Can't really consider another neighborhood since we just signed a year lease here... anyway, I'm not some pansy who freaks out when they leave Manhattan.

that's great to know...then you have nothing to worry about and you should be fine. enjoy the nabe babe! and welcome!

hellodarling

Ok, since this thread is up, raaaaandomly, do y'all have any thoughts on lunch places near the Brooklyn Museum? I haven't been there yet and a few friends and I are going tomorrow... I'm excited to show them my new home Any suggestions are welcome!

apollonia666

If you have a good amount of time, go to the Islands on Washington (it's on the first block of Washington south of the museum, right next to Key Food). They tend to be a bit pokey, but the food's great and the owner's really nice. Cheryl's Global Soul on Underhill (also on the first block south of Eastern Parkway) is supposed to be pretty good, although I haven't been there myself -- there's a thread on the PH board about it with some mixed reviews, but the more recent ones make it sound like they may have just been dealing with some kinks like many new restaurants have to. Or head over to Vanderbilt, which isn't very far at all, and you have lots of choices!

anonymous

i've been away for a couple of weeks, just wanted to say welcome
i moved in a block away from you about 6 months ago and am very happy with the decision
and i am very realistic about the neighborhood...
the way i chose to deal with it was to get involved with the community
(i post meetings constantly on this board if that sort of thing interests you)
and i can say that the concern for safety is NOT a black/white thing
it is a neighborhood concern
and many people are putting a lot of time and energy into keeping crown heights on the upward path that it's been on: getting rid of gun violence, crime, drugs and addressing quality of life issues such as noise, litter, trees.
anyone who thinks these are gentrification issues only needs to show up at a meeting or two to realize that they are not

as far as lunch goes, i was going to mention the islands
also check out this thread: http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5234&highlight=islands

neene

oops,
been away so long, i was logged out
:shock:

anniewilde

I'm not going to apologize for being an uppity mouthy black intellectual with an Ivy PhD who has chosen to live in Crown Heights. I'm not rich, but I could definitely afford Park Slope. In terms of black/white racial issues, though--sorry Neene--Brooklyn often feels like the Gaza Strip. People are very tense and it's a generally fraught situation. Also, Hellodarling--crime is an issue--but my posts have also always tried to engage the crime debate in a racially sensitive way. That's all I was trying to point out. Be aware of crime, but also be aware that you're dealing with people, not just criminals.


The irony is that I'm currently engaged in another racial debate, in another Brooklyn virtual space--with a group of blacks who can't stand white and refuse to socialize with them. Racism is clearly omnipresent and abundant, and it's particularly present in NYC housing dynamics. To pretend otherwise is just laughable.

If you keep on calling me, a biracial Columbia Fellow/Harvard PhD with mostly white friends--a "race war" starter, though, perhaps you should move to Peoria? Just for your information, Bojolais, referring to the notion of racism--in writing--as a sociological phenomenon--is not starting a "race war." Race wars involve things like lynchings, legalized segregation, racially biased laws, police brutality, and organized genocide.

It may not be entirely clear to you, Bojolais, but this is a blog. It's a space for opinions. I'd also suggest that if you have such a hard time dealing with my posts, you might want to think about why. Do you find educated black people threatening? Are you just an angry person? Would you prefer it everybody spent most of their time agreeing with you?

I might get carried away rhetorically, and I apologize to Hellodarling if I have offended you---I agree that I can be a bit of a pedant sometimes. But Bojolais, your comments are just silly. I'd be friends with anybody on this board, including any of the frightened/fearful people or even the snarkiest snarks. I fundamentally believe that we're all just human. That said, I do think these boards have a palpably racist feel much of the time, although not 100%, which is why I keep trying. I also post, as I have said, on "black" Brooklyn boards. The very fact that it's that segregated is a bit of a downer.

hellodarling

We're cool, anniewilde--I was initially pretty pissed but I can understand how some people in the nabe might get offended at a question like mine if other little white kids came in from Manhattan and started asking about safety around "scary black man" (note the quotes! I'm careful to point out this is not what I believe ) As I've mentioned before, it's not racially motivated, and I'm excited to be here

neene

anniewilde wrote: I'm not going to apologize for being an uppity mouthy black intellectual with an Ivy PhD who has chosen to live in Crown Heights. I'm not rich, but I could definitely afford Park Slope. In terms of black/white racial issues, though--sorry Neene--Brooklyn often feels like the Gaza Strip. People are very tense and it's a generally fraught situation.

i don't believe that i implied in any way that there are no black/white racial issues in ch
i was saying however that my personal observations lead me to the conclusion that crime & safety are not issues that belong to one group over another, they are issues that are shared equally in the community.

i believe that most regular posters to this board have a certain "angle" that characterizes their posts, for some it's food, for others it's fear...
mine tends to be trying to get the energy of this virtual dialogue to have a real effect in the physical world that we all live in...

for example,
a few months ago the issue of police/community relations was brought up at a CB8 public safety meeting.
as a result we will be hosting a series of public forums that will address this issue
(yes, they will be announced here)

so, if there is any interest,
i would be willing to work on a similar project to create a way the race issue can be addressed, in the physical world.
i believe that could be a lot more productive than continually having that discussion here.

bojolais

Anniewilde, you're just so ANGRY ALL THE TIME. And I believe you create racial discussions even when that isn't the topic at hand. ... I think you should chill, get laid maybe. And how many times do you need to remind us that you went to an IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL and can afford Park Slope... You'd really hate that message board....

bojolais

And here, here to Neene for always remaining calm and positive and progressive