White Kids from Oklahoma Beaten and Called Crackers

alafairnadia wrote: KateBklyn, Candicissima and Carnivore aren't 'blaming the victim'. Yeesh.
Blaming the victim = hi victim, it is ALL YOUR FAULT that bad things happen to you.
What they're saying (and I agree) is that the world is way more complex than a two paragraph story in the Daily News (or however long it was). the whole story isn't there. the individual lives, feelings, and issues of all of the parties involved aren't there. you can't get the whole picture from that. so jumping to conclusions based on the story in the paper could lead to making a false conclusion.

If "We don't actually know the "does nothing wrong" part, do we? Do you think there's no chance that there might have been some epithets in the other direction coming from the Oklahoma kids?" isn't blaming the victims, it sure comes close in my book. Would any of the above posters have questioned the situation if it had been black kids that were assualted in a predominantly white school or would they have simply voiced the outrage that such an incident would deserve? Would they have have asked if the black kids did something to provoke it?

And no - the Daily News is not perfect. If you want to accuse them of being sensationalist, that's fine, but it doesn't make them inaccurate. Is any paper in NY any better? After last months non-apology apology from the Times to Geraldo Rivera for a blatently false (not lacking nuance - false) accusation, I hope you won't hold them up as accurate or without an agenda. I'm convinced that most New Yorkers only criticize the mistakes in the paper whose politics they don't like.

JC

[MOD daveb] quotes fixed [/MOD NOTE]

Jack wrote: Speaking of 'blaming the victim' by the logic your preseting here, New Orleans Police clearly might have had a reason to beat the hell out of a 64-year-old man. I mean, we really don't know the cops full side of the story? There's an equal chance a 64-year-old man provoked cops to the point of being pummelled to the ground by at least 4 cops? Right?

Now you're just being an idiot. What the Brooklyn kids did was wrong. The rest is speculation. What you did is the equivalent of saying the guy in your story wasn't drunk. Whether he was or not, he didn't deserve what happened to him, but you simply don't have the facts to make the statement. Quit the puffing yourself up with outrage thing, and just accept that you made up the part about the kids not doing anything.

stacey wrote: A great example is the Fortress of Solitude - Jonathan is only a couple years older than I, we went to the same elementary and junior high and he went through the same thing.

Great book. It totally captures what it was like growing up here in the 70s.

Carnivore wrote: Quit the puffing yourself up with outrage thing, and just accept that you made up the part about the kids not doing anything.

Sorry, can't do that. Have real problems with people blaming victims and my thoughts/beliefs stand as-is. I proven wrong, then mea culpa.

What part of you dismissing the victim's account 'puffs' you up?

Candicissima wrote: But the cynic in me can't help but note that the whole story just reads as a sensationalistic typical election time hot button issue for the candidates to grandstand and stake their positions on, while stirring up local racial/social-based anxiety.

I find this statement to be baffling. I can see--and respect--your view that the Daily News could be hyping this even if I don't agree with that. But politicized? Sheesh!

There is no indication from anyone anywhere that anyone is using this as a political issue. No Al Sharpton. No Freddy Ferrer. No Mike Bloomberg. Not even a Joel Klein (Dept. of Ed. head).

I really love the way nowadays that everything becomes a political issue just because someone brings it to light. Perhaps we wouldn't be in the political mess we're in nowadays if more people just spoke up and fought back against the ills against them. Even everyday ills. Instead of just saying "New York City Schools suck! What can you do?"

alafairnadia wrote: maybe we need to do a DH field trip (again) to Starlite ... hanging out in CH is fun!

YEAH! Dancing in the dark with strong whiskey drinks and large shots of vodka. Oooh, almost forgot the lollipops.

Maybe we should all watch 'Mean Girls' and reflect on this issue.


The kids probably didn't provoke the attacks but doing anything other than being weird or different and this is something kids have been for years.

Candicissima wrote: Maybe some people in this neighborhood should go mentor some of these young middle schoolers and do their part in fostering a good environments.

On that note, I tutor at The Fresh Air Fund in the City once a week and they are always looking for more people. And Big Brothers Big Sisters is based in downtown Bklyn and they also needs good folks.

Jack wrote: [quote=Candicissima]The mother shouldn't have sent her kids to that school in the first place.

Why not? Sorry to be naive, I find that concept to be a tad ridiculous. They are in the neighborhood and want to go to a neighborhood school. I see nothing wrong with that.


Candicissima didn't write that. some guest did.

I am curious if a future thread about a rape would include someone asking what the victim was wearing.

devincf wrote: I am curious if a future thread about a rape would include someone asking what the victim was wearing.

Well, we all know that answer is probably no. Because overly-PC people like KateBklyn, Carnivore, and I only like to "get both sides" when there's race involved. Gotta be very careful to be PC at all times. Can't offend the minorities and all.

oh, i just wanted to add that my above statement obviously does not include the *majority* of parents & students, but my point is that these actions have an overwelming impact on the school as a whole.

Although I'm willing to believe that election-time politics could have played a part in the DN's decision to run this "story," I also think it could be their attempt to continue the "race topic" stories that have come out of the Katrina coverage. Kind of a way to keep the Katrina story alive (because it clearly was the best news story of the year).

let me just lighten the mood a bit:

Candicissima wrote: [quote=devincf][quote=Candicissima][quote=devincf]I am curious if a future thread about a rape would include someone asking what the victim was wearing.

Well, we all know that answer is probably no. Because overly-PC people like KateBklyn, Carnivore, and I only like to "get both sides" when there's race involved. Gotta be very careful to be PC at all times. Can't offend the minorities and all.

I don't fully understand the tone and context of that post, but I guess I'll try to respond anyway.

The point I am attempting to make is that the benefit of the doubt should, initially, be extended to the victim. We do it in rape cases, even though sometimes people lie about being raped. We should do it here.

It seems really uncouth that the first reaction anyone has when some kids are getting beat up is, "Maybe they had it coming." In a scenario where the races were reversed, but someone said the same thing, the uproar would be enormous, and deserved.

I'm about as stinkingly liberal as you can get, by the way. I'm often accused of being everything up to and including a Marxist. But I still believe that the victim should get the benefit of the doubt.

One of the first reactions to the story was actually

But the point being made is a family from the midwest comes to Brooklyn, does nothing wrong and are called 'crackers' in a school named after the home field that the Brooklyn Dodgers played in.

which is not even what the story itself said. I feel really bad for those poor kids and their parents too (I guess) because that's a terrible situation for kids to be in (though the mom needs to get a grip with the "do I need the National Guard to protect my kids?!" thing, but let's not get into that...). Not a single person said they deserved it. And how liberal can you be if your first instinct to questioning the false imposed slant is to draw comparisions to rape and white on black crime?

I see the quote and in it I see someone giving the benefit of the doubt to the victim and remarking on the irony of the naming of the school.

As for comparing rape to white on black crime? Well, I'm technically comparing rape to black on white crime, but the comparison is violent assaults and the way the victim is perceieved. In a rape, which is a violent assault, the perception is to give the victim the benefit of the doubt. In this case it seems to be the opposite, and the perpetrators of the violence are given the benefit of the doubt.

Look, lots of stuff ends up in the tabs regardless of the reality of the situation. Since I don't see any of the usual warning signs of insane hyperbole - a politician getting attached, a "name" for the incident (ie, STAB BABY!) - it looks to me like nothing more insidious than a slow newsday.

Jack wrote: But the point being made is a family from the midwest comes to Brooklyn, does nothing wrong and are called 'crackers' in a school named after the home field that the Brooklyn Dodgers played in.

I'm crediting what I said because I stand by it.

Candicissima wrote: which is not even what the story itself said.

If you're going to quote me, please credit me. I stand by that statement. There's an irony to all of this happening in a school named after Ebbets Field and the history of the Brookly Dodgers and racial integration in the major leagues. An irony was inferred by me and that I think is interesting in its own odd way.

But in reality Candicissima, if you're going to criticize me for saying that, there is 100% nothing at all in the Daily News story that indicates ANY politicization of this incident in any way. You are clearly making that inferrence based on your own personal cynicism and not much else. There is 100% of nothing in the Daily News piece that points to--or infers anything--about this specific incident being used for a political purpose in any way.

When I mentioned Ebbets Field it was because the name of the school was mentioned in the piece. If it had not been mentioned in the Daily News piece, there would have been no 'irony pointing out' by me in any way.

What reason--other than personal cynicism--do you have for prejudicially predicting this is all part of an elabortate political game? Absolutely none.