White Kids from Oklahoma Beaten and Called Crackers

alafairnadia · October 2005

devincf wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]so questioning the circumstances = not giving the benefit of the doubt?

When questioning the circumstances = "i wonder if they did something to bring this on", yeah.

value judgment much? like I said in a post somewhere up there, no one is arguing that the kids had something bad happen to them and are quite likely the victims of a crime. I wondered while reading the piece what happened specifically. how did the incidents arise? what was said? who was around? those questions are not judging the victim. they're just questions.

if someone were raped in the nabe, I'd want to know where it happened, who was around, what time it was, the pre-assault condition of the victim, the post-assault condition of the victim, etc. again, not in judgment of the victim.

not sure how you're getting the benefit of the doubt hoopla out of questions.

devincf · October 2005

We have come to a point of such rhetoric that I don't know how to answer. I guess it would be better to read the police report on the thing. I guess it would be better to go to the school ourselves and interview all involved. I guess it would be better to invent a time machine and go back to actually witness the events.

But since we're not going to do any of those things, we're going to have to go by that one article, unless follow-ups appear. The article leads me to assume that the parents are claiming that their children did nothing to earn the harrassment. I am going to, for the time being, believe them, as I have no reason not to.

As for the questions - I don't know how most of those being answered would really further our understanding of the situation. All I can see is that answering those questions might help determine if those white kids did or said something to bring on the harrassment. In a case like this I don't care what the background or the history of the harrassers is - they're acting like little shits.

kate · October 2005

Now we know why Richard Dreyfuss Punched you. :shock:

devincf · October 2005

Because I am trying to make a reasoned argument?

Boy, this board is cool until you disagree.

kate · October 2005

devincf wrote: Because I am trying to make a reasoned argument?

Boy, this board is cool until you disagree.

Oh, relax, you were asking for it. I'm just instigating, starting tomorrow I atone.

jack · October 2005

Candicissima wrote: I don't think Jack's opinion is true yet I actually did say:

Opinions are never true or false. Opinions stand as such; an opinion. What is it in your character that needs to find a vast political conspiracy in this?

Factually, your avoiding the reality that you have blamed the victim. And factually you are avoiding the reality that none of this--other than your posts--point to any political motivation.

And you did indeed say what I quoted. If for some reason your browser is blocking it here it is again. Full and unedited. No George Lucas edits in here.

Candicissima wrote: No one is blaming the victim. Just saying look at the source (and this flame bait topic title -- sorry, Andy, but wth?). There's two sides to every story and I highly doubt that these kids were just skipping along when the big bad black kids decided it was "pick on a cracker" day and beat the sunshine and love out of the innocent little southern boys. Maybe before you all are so quick to jump on the school as a highly racist environment and scream reverse racism, you should ask some of the other white kids in the place (because they do exist) what experiences they are having and think of ways to foster some understanding between the kids in that school and apparently the adults in this neighborhood.

And here's a definition or two for kicks:

There's nothing that more wreaks of academic assinity and a patronizing attitude than pulling quotes from a dictionary to defend oneself.

Say what you will, but there's no way to semantically avoid the hypocrisy in you saying:

Candicissima wrote: No one is blaming the victim.

And then clearly--and without apologies--saying:

Candicissima wrote: I highly doubt that these kids were just skipping along when the big bad black kids decided it was "pick on a cracker" day and beat the sunshine and love out of the innocent little southern boys.

You clearly are blaming the victims and the patronizing/smarmy attitude of saying innocent little southern boys is really racist and indefensible.

It's as simple as that.

As someone who grew up in this city I can assure you I have been called whitey, Jew and tons of other things for no reason other than I exist. It happens all the time. We all know it. What's baffling is why when someone decides to take the Department of Education to task about this, they are pounced upon as liars and people who have a political agenda.

Maybe these are just decent people who are victims of racism who decided to fight back? Perhaps they should have just learned to sit back and shut up. Isn't that the normal thing to do?

alafairnadia · October 2005

Jack wrote: [quote=Candicissima]I highly doubt that these kids were just skipping along when the big bad black kids decided it was "pick on a cracker" day and beat the sunshine and love out of the innocent little southern boys.

You clearly are blaming the victims and the patronizing/smarmy attitude of saying innocent little southern boys is really racist and indefensible.

It's as simple as that.

OMG. this is hysterical. I love that you skip to the obviously sarcastic description of the white kids, without even touching on the [equally] obviously sarcastic description of the black kids. fricking classic, yo!

dailyheights · October 2005

OK. Chill out, now. Everybody.

candicissima · October 2005

Jack, you're too smart to be harping on something so ridiculous. If you (and Devin) can't recognize a so obviously facetious statement, then that's not really my problem. I mean, hello, little boys are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails, not sunshine and love! Plus isn't Oklahoma more Midwestern than Southern? Though definitely the kids were big, bad, and black, right?

I know when I'm beat. Devin and Jack are right. I'm a big old racist with hatred for poor defenseless little white children and seeing political conspiracies everywhere. I'm gonna go lock my door -- or rather go back to work -- and give myself 40 licks with the belt later.

ETA: Sorry, Andy. That was crossposted.

jack · October 2005

alafairnadia wrote: OMG. this is hysterical. I love that you skip to the obviously sarcastic description of the white kids, without even touching on the [equally] obviously sarcastic description of the black kids. fricking classic, yo!

Is it obviously sarcastic? The 'big bad black kids' is clearly sarcastic. The 'innocent little southern boys' is not so much since it's all framed in the conceit 'I highly doubt that these kids...' (kids meaning, the Oklahoma kids).

How about this, filter out the sarcasm of the statement and it basically reads:
'I highly doubt that these kids were just doing nothing when the black kids decided it was "pick on a white kid" day and beat the white boys.'

OMG! LOL! ROTFMAO! NO WAY!!!

The whole statement is pointedly sarcastic with the clear implication that these kids from Oklahoma must have done something to provoke the attack.

Can you--or Candicissima--face the fact that maybe pure racism (spare me this 'reverse racism' PC nonsense) provoked the kids to be attacked? Sure, that never happens. :roll:

PS: Candicissima, this is just a small-scale, Crown Heights, reverse racism version of Tawana Brawley all over again. It's all a vast conspiracy. And Ferrer will use this to become mayor. And in the end, those helicopters you hear over the neighborhood every night are part of the shadow government that really controls us all.

anonymous · October 2005

Everyone knows junior high school is hell. Even middle class Brooklyn parents who are really committed to public education throw in the towel and put their kids in private or parochial school when they reach junior high school. There are about 3 decent JHS's in Brooklyn. High school is different I know people (white) who moved out of PH because their son was being harrassed on his way home from school. If you want to read a fictional account of someone in this situation - which is also a great book set in Boreum Hill try "The Fortress of Solitude" by Jonathan Lathem. It is about two kids growing up in the 70's around here.

sje · October 2005

Candicissima wrote: Plus isn't Oklahoma more Midwestern than Southern?

Uh, that was my geographical mistake, and I'm not getting into the rest of it with any of you! :roll:

boaty · October 2005

Whoa! It seems I'm the only one that got any work done today!

devincf · October 2005

If "Big bad black kids" is sarcastic, that means "innocent little white boys" is also sarcastic.

If both are sarcastic you are saying essentially the opposite of what you mean. The math is for you to do.

carnivore · October 2005

Jack, what I've been trying to say, is that when you made a point of saying that the boys had "done nothing wrong", it was the equivalent to commenting after a rape that the woman "wasn't even wearing a mini-skirt". It's irrelevant to what subsequently happened and not based on the facts of the case as reported. My saying that is not blaming the victim. If you hadn't opened the can of worms by asserting something that isn't known in fact, we could have stuck to the main point, which I agree should be on the school's totally inadequate response to what happened. Maybe if you and devin can shift your focus to the known facts of the case, we can talk about the important stuff.

And if you come to Soda tomorrow, I'd love to trade "yo momma" insults with you.

Truce?

anonymous · October 2005

what is terrible about this story is not only the experience of these kids, but the thousands of kids who have similar experiences and aren't interviewed for the paper. The children's mother here wanted her kids to experience "diversity", whatever that means. According to the latest statistics NYC schools are very segregated, and children like her own, (white kids) are the most segregated group in the country. Did diversity mean enrolling her children in a school where white children made up a very small percentage of the population? The racist overtones of this article are offensive, and i think the bigger problem is the lack of intergration in schools in general. Schools are more segregated now than they were before Brown VS Board of ED, and there is something wrong about moving to experience "diversity." I'm not blaiming these children, i'm blaiming the system, and also the naivete of their mother.

medusa · October 2005

I saw something in one of the papers the other day about attempts to diversify school across economic lines rather than one of race. Did anyone else see that and maybe really read it? It was an interesting concept to me. Race and economics so frequently get conflated. Maybe it makes sense to try to tease them apart.

emily · October 2005

I read that article. It was very interesting and made it seem like a good idea, but also made it clear that the practical problems could be a real obstacle. I think they said that the school district (in NC?) that they were profiling already had a race-based bussing system so people were already accustomed to bussing--they were just changing the method of deciding who got bussed where. I'm sure that starting a new bussing system--anywhere--would be opening a BIG can of worms.

jack · October 2005

This just in from the Daily News.

DailyNews wrote: Taunted boys start fresh
BY KATHLEEN LUCADAMO
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Wednesday, October 12th, 2005

Smiling faces and high-fives greeted a pair of brothers from Oklahoma as they walked into their new Brooklyn middle school yesterday - but it was impossible to escape the racist taunts that drove them out of their previous school.
"Here are the crackers!" an eighth-grade boy yelled at Sloan and J.T. Brown as they walked to class with a parent coordinator at Elijah Stroud Middle School in Crown Heights.

"My jaw dropped," said their mother, Lisa Brown, 33. "The parent coordinator's jaw dropped and she was shaking. [The boys] were so embarrassed."

But unlike the boys' previous school, the budding hatred was quickly dealt with. A spokesman for city Education Department said the boy who taunted the brothers yesterday was suspended.

As the Daily News revealed Monday, the Brown family moved to Brooklyn this summer so Sloan, 12, and J.T., 13, could live in a more diverse neighborhood.

But when the boys, who are white, showed up at Ebbets Field Middle School last month they were schooled in racism and violence. Sloan was beat up, called "cracker" and "white boy" and chased into traffic by classmates, his mom said.

After being contacted by The News, the Education Department quickly arranged for the boys to transfer to Elijah Stroud Middle School.

The Education Department also said the Ebbets Field principal had failed to be "sufficiently attentive to this situation."

Brown said her sons got a generally warm welcome yesterday. "The kids aren't bad, it's just a few," she said.

She was impressed with Elijah Stroud's safety plans and students. "Teachers weren't screaming, the kids were calm. You can tell there is more structure," she said.

One worker asked Brown why she didn't send her sons to a more "integrated" school.

"It's our neighborhood school," said Brown, whose family lives a short walk away. "The kids in our neighborhood go here. Why shouldn't we?"

kate · October 2005

Wow, fast acting on the DOE, really only thanks to the news.

emily · October 2005

I still don't get the thing about moving from Oklahoma to a non-nearby non-convenient expensive new city just to let your kids have a more diverse experience. Who does that? Doesn't the mother have a life in OK that she'd miss? Didn't the kids have friends? I really don't get it.

brooklynswordstyle · October 2005

Clearly the only way to settle this is with Ultimate Fighting.

We all meet in the garden at Soda, and supporters for each side will be matched up by weight class. The title card will be between the OK kids and their aggressors.

We should also do a follow up match between the people from Build and DDDB.

Get it on!

jamesondean · October 2005

EmilyM wrote: I still don't get the thing about moving from Oklahoma to a non-nearby non-convenient expensive new city just to let your kids have a more diverse experience. Who does that? Doesn't the mother have a life in OK that she'd miss? Didn't the kids have friends? I really don't get it.

The original article mentioned that the family also thought it'd be easier for the Brooklyn-native dad to find work here.

emily · October 2005

Oh. Well, that explains it, then.

White Kids from Oklahoma Beaten and Called Crackers

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