No more Strollers at Union Hall
Comments
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I dunno Veets - the "man kicks child, presumably as retribution for his child" aspect is a way bigger deal than
"sitter takes eyes off child for several minutes at small enclosed playground"
Neither of which has anything to do with kids in bars, outside of general themes of bad behavior
whoops, my bad
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pitu wrote: [quote=Jesslope]I hate kids in bars. I don't give a crap if it's an infant, a toddler, or a 10 year old. Get the hell out. That is my personal opinion. But, also, I hate kids in restaurants and shopping malls and supermarkets and in the subway and on the street. So, I'm not really one to judge.
At least you wouldn't do this:
Carroll Park Incident: Grown Man Kicks Five-Year-Old Boy
:shock:
Pitu, that's what I'm talking about. There are a lot of psychos out there. I know two people (one was 15 year old girl) who were randomly -- for no apparent reason -- punched in the face by angry psychos. Sure, you can always call the cops and throw the psycho out of the bar, but once the damage is done, the damage is done. Why increase the chances that your baby or toddler will get kicked by some David Yow type? -
Subject: Re: Stroller Parking Racks?
imasloper wrote: From a Park Slope Parents email, a question about stroller parking racks that could apply to many situations: "I was wondering if there's such a thing as municipal stroller parking racks anywhere in the world. Strollers can take up a lot of room even in the most kid-friendly places. Would life be better in PS if there was such a thing? Would it provoke a backlash with torches and pitchforks or increase the peace?"
Been there/done that. As the manager of a public facility, we have tried a stroller parking area:
Person to watch strollers: $7/hour
Reimbursement for thefts of stuff in strollers to stroller itself: $$$
Satisfaction of parents who otherwise would bring their strollers to whereever they were going: 0
As a parent, my advice is to get your kid out of the stroller and walking as soon as possible. I see expensive strollers are slightly more ergonomic these days, but I couldn't wait to walk without hunching over and get my kid some real exercise. -
brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=Jamzer]
obviously, if all parents knew this, there wouldn't be the constant barrage of threads here (and everywhere else) about kids/babies/strollers being places where they should or should not be.
Some places clearly are not appropriate for kids. Dark, loud, crowded or divey places should be child-free. But hopefully parents know this.
who gets to decide which bars? well, the union hall guy tried to decide and got vilified. i feel sorry for him, getting targeted that way by the stroller mafia. i really do. that's just wrong.
did all the moms tire of the tea lounge? seriously, i was reading about this on gowanus lounge as well as smartmom's column in brooklyn paper... one woman was all, "my apartment is only 625 square feet and my cat is 19 and deaf and we need to get out of the house!",,, christ, move to the suburbs. that's where we lived, and my mother used to take me to the children's room at the library. then to a friend's house for what's now called a "play date". we played, the mom's had gin and tonics. so i'm not saying kids shouldn't be around people who drink, just not bars.
i think i should be able to make that blanket statement, otherwise it's filled with gray areas. like which bar can, and can't be, a place for babies.
Why are bars suddenly "the" place to take your kid? I thought one of the reasons people lived in this area (and NYC in general) was for the plethora of cultural venues available? Zoo, Brooklyn Children's Museum (imagine, a museum for kids...bet they don't object to strollers), Botanic Garden, Brooklyn Museum of Art, public libraries and of course, Prospect Park are all within walking distance. Why not meet at those places? Healthier and more stimulating for kids and a nice walk to boot. -
deepo wrote: Why are bars suddenly "the" place to take your kid? I thought one of the reasons people lived in this area (and NYC in general) was for the plethora of cultural venues available? Zoo, Brooklyn Children's Museum (imagine, a museum for kids...bet they don't object to strollers), Botanic Garden, Brooklyn Museum of Art, public libraries and of course, Prospect Park are all within walking distance. Why not meet at those places? Healthier and more stimulating for kids and a nice walk to boot.
Because it's not about the kids, it's about the parents. -
"deepo" wrote:
Kids are now supposed to reflect Mommy and daddy's still hipness (we might be covered in spit up but it is so much cooler then the spit up that covered are parent's shirts). What is cooler then a little kid at a bar wearing his baby Ramones T-shirt? Although I really do NOT like the anti-parental undertone in some of the posts on this thread (as a parent, I have definitely felt a snarky attitude in the slope).....I have to say it is almost absurd that there is even a discussion about bringing kids to bars! How much more inappropriate can you get? Kids around drunks. Kids around people getting drunk. It has never once occurred to me to bring my children to a bar. I really find it almost laughable that the organic only eating, breast-fed for two years righteous mamas are now fighting to have their children allowed in bars! It proves that all the righteousness is about the mommy and not the kids. Grow up (both sides please).
Why are bars suddenly "the" place to take your kid? I thought one of the reasons people lived in this area (and NYC in general) was for the plethora of cultural venues available? Zoo, Brooklyn Children's Museum (imagine, a museum for kids...bet they don't object to strollers), Botanic Garden, Brooklyn Museum of Art, public libraries and of course, Prospect Park are all within walking distance. Why not meet at those places? Healthier and more stimulating for kids and a nice walk to boot. -
WTGirl wrote: How much more inappropriate can you get? Kids around drunks. Kids around people getting drunk.
It's interesting how so much of this discussion revolves around what the kids will see/hear/smell at these bars. Foul language, binge drinking, etc. People seem to want their freedom to...what? Act like idiots? Americans are a mess when it comes to drinking. Maybe a few kids in a bar will stop everyone from drinking their lives away and generally acting retarded. -
Jesslope wrote: I hate kids in bars. I don't give a crap if it's an infant, a toddler, or a 10 year old. Get the hell out. That is my personal opinion. But, also, I hate kids in restaurants and shopping malls and supermarkets and in the subway and on the street. So, I'm not really one to judge.
What a sad and angry post.
As is the case in general, people are rude and don't think about anyone around them. And, people with kids are not only rude themselves, they bring a small mini rude thing with them. Who yells. And runs. My mother would never have let me run around and scream and disturb other people when I was a child.
But, also I can see it from the other side. I can see places having certain allowances and rules. Hell, if I have kids one day, I might want to go somewhere social and welcoming. I will still want to throw other peoples' children against a wall. But, I'd want to throw the rude, moronic, inconsiderate parents against the wall more.
For now, if I see a child in a bar, I will either throw up in my mouth, sneer at my friends, or just leave and never come back. Or a combination of all of those.
It's also interesting how much "My mother would never let me..." and "We lived in the suburbs where people with kids are supposed to live...." are part of these rants. The anti-kids in bars posse really wants to tell other people how to live their lives and they're basing it on their own selfish desires or some relationship to a past world where their parents lived. Who's being overbearing in this situation, the stroller moms or these people who want to ghetto-ize these parents? Tough to say. -
Here's what I don't understand. Aren't there any restaurants in PS that serve alcohol? Or better yet, these folks can't stop at the liquor store, pick up a bottle, and host lunch and drinks at their house for all the other moms who want to get out and get soused with their kids in tow?
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Why don't you do that instead and you won't have to see these kids and their mommies?
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Well, I work during the day, but when I choose to drink with my friends at night or on the weekends that is exactly what I do. Taking your kids to a bar is unnecessary, and has become, as someone pointed out above a way to signal to others how cool and hip you are. But its not cool, and not hip its just really sad.
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That's what people are speculating. That parents do it to be hip and cool. But where that really comes from is the whole singles vs. families thing in this neighborhood. How much of that is real? Not a whole lot. I'm sure some parents may do that but I'm sure most of them just want to get out of the house. Do European families think it's hip and cool to go to pubs with their kids? No. They just do it because they do it.
What's sad is everyone's reaction to this situation. Really sad. -
Also: if you don't go to bars then why do you care or feel the need to make fun of these people? Makes no sense.
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I am not making fun of anyone, merely asking a question that none of the "everyone in Europe does it" crowd seems to be able to answer which is why it is necessary to take your kid to a BAR? There are other places for adults to gather and drink which present a lot fewer problems including restaurants that serve liquor and welcome kids.
As to why its important, these kids will ultimately become the next generation of tweens, teens and adults in PS. How they are raised and what kinds of messages are imparted to them by their parents will affect the kind of people they turn out to be. -
Since when do people do things because it's necessary? Don't understand the point. Union Hall is a business with open space that serves food and drink with comfortable seating --- why not go there?
You think if a 6 month old or 1 year old or even 2 year old is at a bar that it's going to change the kind of person they are in 5, 10, 20 years? I don't think you understand the process. Besides, it's better to NOT let kids be around other people? To see what goes on in the world? It's better to shelter them up with only other adult women and kids their age? I don't think so.
NYC used to be a place where families would settle. Somewhere along the line single people decided that they owned the cities. So now there's some battle about who belongs where, a stupid battle. Why can't everyone just co-exist? -
brooklynpotter wrote: here's an idea: let's protest strollers in union hall.
If we are going to have a civil discussion about this we should keep the hyperboly to a minimum.
how come the mommies get to make all the rules around here?
I've looked over the posts and I don't think anybody has suggested that mommies get to make all the rules. I certainly would not say that and I would not agree with anyone who made that suggestion.
I don't think childless people get to make all the rules either
I've said it a thousand times on this board, and I will say it again, parents need to be considerate and thoughtful and children should be well behaved in any public space. Anyone not being considerate should be called out on it. The flip side of it, which seems lost on some people on this board, is that everyone should try to be a little tolerant. We can't always choose who is standing next to us at any given time, who is sitting next to us in a movie, a restaurant, or using the next treadmill at the gym. I know this argument will be lost on the very few people who say that they hate to see kids anywhere or that parents should move to the suburbs (ech!). But for everyone else, I have to give it a shot.
I agree that there are some places that children don’t belong. I would not bring my children out with me if I planned to get drunk and stay out late (a very, very rare occasion these days b/c of the price of babysitting and how painful it is to wake up at 6:30 the next morning). I also would not bring a child with me to an R rated movie, or a classical concert not geared towards kids. The list goes on, but I have a fundamental disagreement that there is no grey area when it comes to grabbing a beer. For starters, what do you mean by a bar? What if it is a pub that also serves burgers. What if it is in the middle of the day and the place has highchairs? What if the bar invites parents with children in and reserves a certain time and days of the week for them? There is a grey area here.
I don't know why this topic gets some people so angery. Parents with children in bars is not an epidemic that is going to ruin Park Slope's nightlife. Just like I leave a bar if it is taken over by a bunch of moronic frat boys or drunk sports fans yelling at a TV screen, you might have to pick a new bar if you don't like the crowd. If the sight of a group of new moms having a glass of wine or a couple of friends with a sleeping baby in tow having a beer while they catch up, gets you so angery, maybe the problem is not with them, but with you? -
Old Time Brooklyn wrote: Union Hall is a business with open space that serves food and drink with comfortable seating --- why not go there?
Because as the owner pointed out originally, the place has stairs and a bocce court and other things which make it not the best idea, especially if patron are going to sit and drink and not keep an eye on what the kids are doing and where they are going.Old Time Brooklyn wrote: Besides, it's better to NOT let kids be around other people? To see what goes on in the world? It's better to shelter them up with only other adult women and kids their age? I don't think so.
There are a bunch of titty bars on 3rd Avenue that are empty during the day. Would it be okay for parents to take their kids there? They have food and drink as well. Come on this isn't about exposing your kids to other people, it about putting your own wants before what may be best either for your kid or for other people that may come into contact with you.NYC used to be a place where families would settle. Somewhere along the line single people decided that they owned the cities. So now there's some battle about who belongs where, a stupid battle. Why can't everyone just co-exist?
There are plenty of folks on this board who were born and raised in Brooklyn. I'd hazzard a guess that the vast majority of them were not taken to bars as kids by their parents. This isn't about single people taking over and its not about a turf war. Its about a business owner deciding that customers couldn't be counted on to be responsible for keeping an eye on their kids and therefore trying to take steps to head off an accident or problem in the future. -
Any business can decide to make a decision to not allow certain customers, granted. I'm talking about -- in general -- why people here think it's not acceptable for kids to be in bars aside from the danger of bocce ball courts, etc.
"it about putting your own wants before what may be best either for your kid or for other people that may come into contact with you. "
Actually, you and all these people are doing the exact same thing: you don't want to see kids in bars and you're putting your desires in front of everyone else. -
On the Park Slope board it's singles vs. parents. On the Prospect Heights board it's the muggers vs. the new residents. No one will ever get along apparently. The anti-stroller posse is no better than the people in Prospect Heights being pissed off about more affluent people on "their" turf. Same shit, different scenario. Sad that people are like this.
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Subject: Share
"Jamzer" wrote: I don't know why this topic gets some people so angery.
First let me say, I do think it is ridiculous to fight to bring kids into a bar. A bar? (True, what do we mean by bar? A burger joint that serves alcohol is totally appropriate to bring a kid but it is O.K. to deny children access to some venues. I don't want to hear a kid cring at an R rated movie). That being said....maybe some of the people without kids here need to uhm...grow up a little and relax. I think I must say the word "share" 20 times per day to my kids. Something to be said for that little word.
Stop fighting, share the neighborhood and please pick up your toys. -
Exactly.
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My parents used to bring me to bars all the time when I was little. My sister and I would have to sit there, hoping that the bar tender liked kids and would sneak us olives. Otherwise we would be board out of our minds.
My sister and I knew this was an "adult" place so we didn't run around and we didn't bother other people. We just sat there. We frequently folded napkins into hats, twisted straws into bracelets and often got into trouble for playing with the candles and setting said hats and bracelts on fire.
The parents have spoke, the singels have spoke, I would like to speak from the point of view of my sister and I as kids...WE WANTED TO BE AT THE PARK, CHUCKY CHEESE, A FRIEND'S HOUSE, OUR HOUSE, ANYWHERE ELSE! Bars were soooooooo boring. There was nothing but trouble for us and we knew it...we hated it.
Yeah, not ALL kids hate it but I gotta tell you, we did. I don't think I would take my kids to a bar because of how boring I always thought they were.
Um...my parents weren't bad parents either...they just took us to bars frequently enough that my sister and I have both vowed not to do that with our kids. -
Jamzer wrote: Just like I leave a bar if it is taken over by a bunch of moronic frat boys or drunk sports fans yelling at a TV screen, you might have to pick a new bar if you don't like the crowd. If the sight of a group of new moms having a glass of wine or a couple of friends with a sleeping baby in tow having a beer while they catch up, gets you so angery, maybe the problem is not with them, but with you?
Ha! "I hate these here baby bars." (as opposed to frat bars?) "God, I can't stand all this spit up and all the discarded binkys on the floor." (instead of puke in the bathroom and broken glass on the floor).
In all seriousness, that kind of makes sense. We all do choose which places to frequent based on personal preference, so there are certain places those of us that don't want to see children should just avoid. -
My two cents; there is a difference between strollers and children. Strollers take up way too much damn space. They should basically be banned from just about any establishment except supermarkets and stores. I dont need to be tripping over your damn stroller and you shouldn't have a right to bring your form of transportation (car, bike stoller) into an already small and crowded public space. Somehow the stroller crowd feels this is a god given right, even the double-wide strollers, because, after all, it's "my child!!!!!" That sense of entitlement, taking up the whole sidewalk, et. al. is what sucks about stroller-people.
Children are human beings and I don't mind having them around, they do have a right to coexist. But they should only be permitted under certain circumstances . . . which basically boils down to - do their parents watch over them and are they well behaved. At the tea-lounge for example, the kids run around like wild indians, grabbing things, knocking over stuff, screaming, yelling, crying . . . it's like a friggin playground! If I screamed and yelled and threw things I would hope they would throw me out.
(I used to go to the tea loung cause they had a chessset/table there - but the kids would come and grab the chess pieces while we were playing. Annoying!)
And there are plenty of playgrounds around. It boils down to that the parents dont want to go to the park or the playground, or find some appropriate venue for children. Basically they are selfish, or lazy, and find the needs of their children to be subordinate to their own. I know many parents in the city and basically one thing that they NEVER do that I think is highly stupid; they don't arrange play-dates for their kids or even try to find kids the same age for them to hang out with! God knows there are PLENTY OF THEM! This is basically the best approach to letting kids socialize, not drag them off to some bar or tea lounge, but for some reason this idea seems totally out of the question, like your kid is too good for that or some crazy bad thing will happen; best to drag your kid to a bar or coffee shop.
PS - last time I was at the tea lounge a giant waterbug landed on my neck! It was horrible! And they acted like I was creating a problem when I told them to kill it as it ran around on the floor! A-holes! -
Subject: The family that drinks together stays together
I guess the stroller strategy is take your kids to a bar in a stroller and when you get older they'll take you there in a wheelchair -
gags2008 wrote: But they should only be permitted under certain circumstances . . . which basically boils down to - do their parents watch over them and are they well behaved. At the tea-lounge for example, the kids run around like wild indians, grabbing things, knocking over stuff, screaming, yelling, crying . . . it's like a friggin playground! If I screamed and yelled and threw things I would hope they would throw me out.
Just curious: if a mentally retarded person did any of the above, would they not be "well-behaved" by your standards?
I also think it a ridiculous notion to state that these parents ONLY take their kids to bars. That they don't go on playdates, go to parks, go to the zoo, etc. Of course they do. But they live in the city for a reason: they want to be within walking distance to bars, restaurants, etc. So yeah, sometimes they bring their children. But if you think that's all they do with them, you're talking nonsense. -
Old Time Brooklyn wrote: [quote=gags2008]But they should only be permitted under certain circumstances . . . which basically boils down to - do their parents watch over them and are they well behaved. At the tea-lounge for example, the kids run around like wild indians, grabbing things, knocking over stuff, screaming, yelling, crying . . . it's like a friggin playground! If I screamed and yelled and threw things I would hope they would throw me out.
Just curious: if a mentally retarded person did any of the above, would they not be "well-behaved" by your standards?
I also think it a ridiculous notion to state that these parents ONLY take their kids to bars. That they don't go on playdates, go to parks, go to the zoo, etc. Of course they do. But they live in the city for a reason: they want to be within walking distance to bars, restaurants, etc. So yeah, sometimes they bring their children. But if you think that's all they do with them, you're talking nonsense.
Ok, a mentally disabled person is not the same as an out of control child. I worked with autistic and emotionally disturbed kids for 4 years in special ed. A huge part of the autistic children's education was teaching them how to behave appropriately in public places. And, I'm sorry but if a low functioning autistic child can learn to behave in public then so can so called "normal" kids. -
[quote="daver"]I could give a crap if bars allow kids or not. Personally, I think having kids at bars is retarded, but whatever.
Am I missing something? Is it even legal for children to be in bars? I can only assume that UH sells food too, which would make it OK, right? -
Never mind - I just saw a post that answered my own question. Sorry!
A lot of good points are being made here. But ultimately, there's not a whole hell of a lot to discuss. Just go to the places you like for the reasons you like them and avoid the ones you don't.
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