No more Strollers at Union Hall

Just curious: if a mentally retarded person did any of the above, would they not be "well-behaved" by your standards?

Just curious . . . what relevence, if any, would that have to this topic? I think it is a ridiculous notion to ask that question.

And the answer is obvious . . . no. . . .

But "normal" children and "normal" parents presumably have more ability to comport themselves in public. The discussion is not about adults who can't behave themselves, the issue is kids and/or strollers being banned from spaces, not adults. The reason kids might be banned (other than, who knows, liability issues?) is because they tend to have a lot of unspent energy, be too curious and touchy, and probably most of all they have more of a tendency to scream and cry.

Having said that I'm sure there are certain mentally handicapped people that can and do behave well in public. The ones that can't, I'm assuming, are not brought to Union Hall by a gaurdian or whomever, and I'm sure if they raised a ruckus they would be tossed and banned. Which sort of supports the principle that children, retarded people, and anyone who is not able to behave themselves should not be allowed into Union Hall.

I also think it a ridiculous notion to state that these parents ONLY take their kids to bars. That they don't go on playdates, go to parks, go to the zoo, etc. Of course they do. But they live in the city for a reason: they want to be within walking distance to bars, restaurants, etc. So yeah, sometimes they bring their children. But if you think that's all they do with them, you're talking nonsense.

I am referring to people who I know, when I ask about their kids having friends their own age, or playdates, the parents (I'm thinking of certain couples) sort of shrug and say "no". So I am extrapolating, taking liberties. Yes I'm sure they go to parks, zoos, etc. but presumably that is limited in winter and at night. But if you go to the tea bar, even at night, it's hard to escape the impression that the kids don't have enough to do in terms of age-appropriate socialization. Which probably explains why "Baby Loves Disco" sells out every month at Southpaw. I haven't been but I imagine Chucky Cheese at the Atlantic Mall is packed on any given evening.

I dont have kids, but I seem to recall that, growing up, my parents had at least some friends with kids the same age, with whom they could socialize while the kids played in another room. Maybe that's not realistic in Park Slope. Maybe our community is deficient in the sense that couples with kids dont socialize with other couples with kids. Or maybe it's not and I'm just missing something. Maybe the apartments are too small to have other people with kids over.

I don't know. So not being a parent any assumption I make is probably faulty.

Maybe there should be a section on Craigslist for Couple with Kids seeking Couple with Kids. Maybe there is. Maybe everyone is happily socializing their kids and I'm just blowing hot air.

True dat . . . Don't deny my right to be curmudgeonly! :x

Oh, PS - I think I wasn't clear in that last post. I don't think retarded people or children or adults should be banned, just those that don't behave. I know it doesn't read like that, but that is what I THOUGHT I was writing. I still think they should ban strollers, not kids.

You know, it's all well and good to say if you don't like going to a bar with kids then go someplace else. But what about the parents who flipped out when UH banned strollers? They complained until the owner caved and let them back. They didn't like the no stroller policy but they didn't just go someplace else. It's happened before, and apparently will continue to happen. If more parents just watched their kids and kept them from misbehaving then there wouldn't be a problem. UH is not a playground, and heaven forbid if any of these kids got seriously hurt there. You think the parents wouldn't go after the owner of UH?

Wow. I started reading this thread when it first popped up and had no idea how involved it would become, although I should have guessed, having been a PS resident just as the stroller wars were beginning. Really-- when I left there were certain bodegas that posted "no strollers" signs and groups of moms who organized boycotts. I was once rudely told in the most insipid of ways to get out of the way in my local bodega by a stroller mom who chose to communicate with me by talking to her pre-speech, infant child in the following manner: "We'll be able to buy your juice and go home just as soon as this nice lady gets out of our way...coo, coo." I was in a legitimate aisle shopping for vegetables, while she was trying to take a short cut to the register. The end of the line was behind her, she had only to turn to her left. She was intent on creating her own line...we've all seen it, I know, it's boring.
Having said all that, I have to say that I have been at UH several times in the early evenings and seen adults there with children. Well-behaved and well-attended children--none really older than two or so. It wasn't a problem. The families were seated and being waited on by a waitress. The grown ups were paying attention. It was kind of nice, actually. I like kids and don't much like the culture that says that they should grow up in a manufactured, innocent place. Furthermore, it was early evening. It's not like they were there at 2 o'clock in the morning, or even 8 o'clock in the evening.

However, having worked in the service industry now for 20 years, I see the point of view of the bar owners and realize my few experiences at UH with nice, responsible parents and pleasant kids might be the exception.
I've worked in places where parents routinely let their kids climb up and down well-trod (READ: pretty dirty) stairs beneath brunch waitresses carrying hot pots of coffee. I guess the issue is really whether or not the parents are paying attention. Actually, I still work in that place, and it is not uncommon for the staff to be regarded as surrogate babysitters. Especially during brunch, even when the parents are seated at a table and not consuming alcohol. So maybe the issue is more about parenting. If the owner's experience is that most parents do not mind their children, then ban the irresponsible parents.
When I was a kid, I know, oh no, not that again....BUT! When I was a kid, we had a local. Santoro's. We ate spaghetti, blew into the tops of our long necked 7 UP bottles and had a ball. My parents and all the other adults in the neighborhood discussed politics and drank Scotch. Somehow, it all worked out. We fed quarters into the juke box, played checkers, threw darts. We weren't allowed out of our parents' sight. We weren't allowed to yell or be demanding. We weren't allowed to get in the way of the operations of the place. We didn't turn it into our living room and our parents didn't lose control of us.
It would make me happy to see a place where the two worlds could meet. I know this is an inordinately long post, but just one more point. Last weekend my husband and I were eating at the bar at Stone Park. A mother/daughter pair sat down next to us. The daughter was between ten and twelve years old. The man she sat down next to said, "Welcome to the bar!" It was nice to see a mother and daughter have a date. And I think the youngster had a civilizing effect on all of us.

seems to me that, within certain legal limits, a business has the right to make a decision that will net it the most paying customers.

if parents boycotted or threatened to boycott an establishment i owned, and i believed that i would lose more money by their not coming than i would gain from those glad to see them gone, i'd likely change policy.

the take-away here is that if you don't like kids in bars, organize.

Subject: It's dangersous. DUH.

The following excerpt from the New York Times article that Brooklyn Potter shared highlights things parents should consider:

' Mr. Carden insisted the ban was pragmatic, not dogmatic. He explained that Union Hall contains any number of potential child-hazards that could constitute a liability for the owners — an open staircase, a full-size boccie court involving “hard balls thrown around. Sometimes there are broken glasses,” he added. “It is a bar.” '

Oooo, broken glass! Scary.

So much of this is the whole "OMG, it's a bar! There's people drinking and men cursing and girls diddlin' themselves." Please. The article does a good job of showing that the "bar" has changed. It's not some hedonistic place.

Y'all should blame the smoking bans, not the parents/kids.

Old Time Brooklyn wrote: Y'all should blame the smoking bans, not the parents/kids.

100% correct. If the smoking ban weren't in place, there's no way I'd even ponder bringing a baby to a bar. So there you go! All those who don't like babies in bars - fight the smoking ban!

Hey, some people probably would consider that a fair tradeoff, as twisted as that seems.

(Note: not I.)

meganlibrarian wrote: [quote=Old Time Brooklyn]Y'all should blame the smoking bans, not the parents/kids.

100% correct. If the smoking ban weren't in place, there's no way I'd even ponder bringing a baby to a bar. So there you go! All those who don't like babies in bars - fight the smoking ban!

Hmmm. Babies or Smoking. Hard choice....

Daver,
If you are not a parent already, I can tell you will make an EXCELLENT father!

this thread is awesome. keep it going. really.

It's funny, but when I was a small child, I lived in San Francisco from 1968 - 1973 and my mother used to take my sister and I along on outings with her friends. A favorite was going to this park where free concerts were given and all sorts of folks, including my mother's friends, were drinking cheap wine and smoking weed. We were also taken to shows at The Fillmore, although I don't remember if we went into any bars. Probably.

Of course, I realize that this ain't SF and it's the 21st century. I'm just saying that I'm not all that bothered by kids being in bars and that's probably a huge reason why. I mean, I'm much less bothered by them than by drunken assholes.

I second that ITA.

The simple thing to do, it seems to me, is just to go to places where the assholicity is at a minimum.