Newly Vegetarian- Feeling Awful
So, I'm coming up on 3 months vegetarian (more like pescatarian). I have VERY low energy, and when I do try to get active, it doesn't seem to make a difference, I still feel drained.
I think I've been getting enough protein, I eat eggs, fish, a decent amount of veg (one could always eat more though, but I do my best)
So, I guess I have a couple of questions:
A) is this typical when you stop eating meat? My whole life I've eaten meat, so my body is clearly reacting. How long should I expect to feel this way?
Other than a multi-vitamin, are there any vegetarian specific supplements I can take?
C) Could I just be one of those people who's not cut out for this? I've been eating this way for moral reasons, not dietary, so to start eating meat again (while I miss it like crazy!) would be really difficult.
Any suggestions are so very welcome. I feel like CRAP!
PS- I've been thinking of getting some blood work done, but don't have insurance right now, so....yea.
I think I've been getting enough protein, I eat eggs, fish, a decent amount of veg (one could always eat more though, but I do my best)
So, I guess I have a couple of questions:
A) is this typical when you stop eating meat? My whole life I've eaten meat, so my body is clearly reacting. How long should I expect to feel this way?
Other than a multi-vitamin, are there any vegetarian specific supplements I can take?C) Could I just be one of those people who's not cut out for this? I've been eating this way for moral reasons, not dietary, so to start eating meat again (while I miss it like crazy!) would be really difficult.
Any suggestions are so very welcome. I feel like CRAP!
PS- I've been thinking of getting some blood work done, but don't have insurance right now, so....yea.
Comments
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Have you tried Quinoa? It's tasty in soups, couscous-like stuff, use it with porabella (sp?) mushrooms and kinda as a pasta substitute. From wikipedia:
as its protein content is very high (12%–18%). Unlike wheat or rice (which are low in lysine), quinoa contains a balanced set of essential amino acids for humans, making it an unusually complete food. It is a good source of dietary fiber and phosphorus and is high in magnesium and iron. Quinoa is gluten free and considered easy to digest
Also, beans AND rice create a protien, if I remember correctly from my health class
Personal recipe: baked catfish in butter and garlic. Wrap up a fillet of catfish in foil, before closing add some slabs of butter and thick diced garlic, season, wrap, and place on tray in oven. cook until the damn thing is steaming and falling apart. Serve on plate with rice and add a little lime, feekin divine. -
tangential - since when does eating fish make one a vegetarian? I thought dairy products were okay but nothing that had to actually be killed for food made up a veg diet? no offense, of course. I could care less - I eat almost everything.
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alafairnadia wrote: tangential - since when does eating fish make one a vegetarian? I thought dairy products were okay but nothing that had to actually be killed for food made up a veg diet? no offense, of course. I could care less - I eat almost everything.
Yea, no, I know- but I did specify PESCAtarian. At least, that's the catch word I heard I should use. xo!
But, yea, I hear people all the time who say their veg while they're eating sushi.
Also, I'm so bad at this- I hate tofu and I'm not a big bean eater. -
I'd consult with a doctor or a nutritionist; have them take a look at what you've typically been eating now and they can make suggestions if there are any holes in the plan.
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Have you tried iron supplements? It's the most common deficiency, and particularly in female vegetarians. And weakness / fatigue is the primary symptom.
Do you do shellfish? Oysters and clams are about as good as beef. Otherwise, you need heaps of soy and beans, or fortified cereals, or iron pills. -
How much fish do you eat? What kind of fish?
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I think your feeling depressed because you miss all that sweet delicious meat. I just had a Kobe burger with shoestring fries for $10 at Melt. It was so juicy and tender. Mummmmmm.. with a cold Stella beer..... had a carnitas taco last week that was devine..... all that mouth watering meaty goodness.... :twisted:
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I agree with doctorj - you need more raw oysters in your diet. I'm willing to have dinner with you at some of my favorite oyster joints to assist you with this issue. I don't mind at all.
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Mamacita- you're a jerk.
You're like this guy:
:safe:
(ha, ha)
Alafair- me no likey oysters
:puker: ....but I'll sit and watch you eat them.
Filmlover: I eat tuna, salmon, talapia, SHRIMP. Unfortunately, my immediate neighborhood is lacking in quality seafood, but my plan is to get somewhere where I can stock up and then freeze it at home. How much? Probably not enough, 4x a week, I guess?
Dr J- I think you may be onto something with the iron thing.
Thanks guys, I feel better already! (not really, but good enough for the CRAWL!) -
Whatchuwant wrote:
um, 4 x a week is actually allot. I may be wrong, but you might want to mention that to your doctor.
Filmlover: I eat tuna, salmon, talapia, SHRIMP. Unfortunately, my immediate neighborhood is lacking in quality seafood, but my plan is to get somewhere where I can stock up and then freeze it at home. How much? Probably not enough, 4x a week, I guess?
I also can't take iron. Iron makes me sick. So does Vitamin C because it speeds up the absorption of iron. The symptoms that you describe are exactly the same as the ones I had when I was taking large does of Vitamin C or Iron. -
So too much iron can make you constipated, and even more is toxic. Taking lots of vitamin C will irritate the gut. Going overboard with supplements isn't a great idea.
But apparently, in the United States, 20% of all women of childbearing age have iron deficiency anemia. It's easy to diagnose, and easy to fix with tablets.
Any other kind of dietary deficiency, like missing vitamins or amino acids, I reckon you have to try pretty hard for a long time on a wacky diet. But a woman can easily run short of iron in the space of a couple of months by cutting out red meat and not replacing with another iron source. -
You might not be eating a balanced vegetarian diet. Each meal should contain protein, starch/carbs, and a little fat to maintain your energy. A sandwich of tofu, lettuce, tomatoes, onions, hummus, and soy cheese on bread should have over 30 grams of protein, 30 carbs, and at least 10 grams of fat and keep you feeling energetic for hours.
Vitamin B12 might help you feel more energetic. It's in cold breakfast cereals, like Product 19, and Marmite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite -
alafairnadia wrote: tangential - since when does eating fish make one a vegetarian? I thought dairy products were okay but nothing that had to actually be killed for food made up a veg diet? no offense, of course. I could care less - I eat almost everything.
Didn't you know that fish was a vegetable?
True vegetarians do not eat dairy or fish. Eating trends and pop culture created a the new "vegan" term for people who do not eat dairy. -
Thanks, Raw. I was thinking of B12 as well as iron deficiencies that I may have. I also have to mention that I've got joint pain (tendinitis in an elbow and knee that never had never existed until now).
I have never been a big red meat eater, but it may be the nutrients that I'm missing. Hate to mention this around the boys, but around the time I'm surfin the crimson wave, I get a serious red meat craving. -
Congrats on the no eating meat thing.
Meat.... Mmmm =P~
Could you eat tuna?
Tuna.....Mmmm =P~
Yeah , I'm hungry right now.
Anways. I havent been to a doctor since moving here.I usually see my doctor whenever I go to MI.I was running low on my meds so I was walking around the hood and found a doctors office that I never knew existed on Frankin Ave.When I went in for my appointment they took my blood :x , 2 little bottles,and my pee [-( . DrJ said something about iron deficiencies in women. I wasn't going to call for my results cuz like I said all I wanted was my drugs , but now I am curious.With my luck the results will say low iron. #-o
Whatchuwant , the doctor I went to is really really close by where we live.Its on Franklin Ave between Carroll and Crown St. The doctors visit is a hundred bucks , I don't know how much the blood work costs though.
You can give them a call , maybe they will let you make payments if it costs too much.
Dr. Jean-Jerome (lady)
901 Franklin Ave.
(718) 771-9100
About you being lazy or "very low energy" as you call it. Exercise? It works for me. Good energy booster , and it makes you feel good.Sleep? Do you get enough? Sometimes I don't and that always makes me feel like shit all damn day.
Hope you feel better! -
doctorj wrote: So too much iron can make you constipated, and even more is toxic. Taking lots of vitamin C will irritate the gut. Going overboard with supplements isn't a great idea.
Actually, any iron suplement at all makes me violently ill - no problems iwht constipation. I can eat fruit but a glass of Orange juice also nauseates me. A daily dosage of Vit C for a normal person and I am exactly as the above poster described.
Vit C actually accelerates iron absorption, so for someone who is anemic and doesn't have this intolerance, Vit C should be taken with Iron.
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iron.php -
Whatchuwant wrote: Thanks, Raw. I was thinking of B12
Fish and dairy have plenty of B12 for most people. I think you have to be unlucky vegan eating no fortified cereals, washing vegetables of all soil, and not developing compensating gut flora before B12 deficiency becomes a risk. Unless you're taking/using something extra that inhibits B12 or have damage to the ilium causing pernicious anaemia. Not very common. -
filmlover44 wrote: [quote=doctorj]So too much iron can make you constipated, and even more is toxic. Taking lots of vitamin C will irritate the gut. Going overboard with supplements isn't a great idea.
Actually, any iron suplement at all makes me violently ill - no problems iwht constipation. I can eat fruit but a glass of Orange juice also nauseates me. A daily dosage of Vit C for a normal person and I am exactly as the above poster described.
Vit C actually accelerates iron absorption, so for someone who is anemic and doesn't have this intolerance, Vit C should be taken with Iron.
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iron.php
You do recognize that some iron intake is essential for life, right? Especially for that half of the population that has a scheduled monthly iron loss. -
i found in going vegetarian it was important to learn how to cook for myself and also to learn how to cook many different things, beans, rices, grains, different vegetables....there are so many things out there full of iron and protein that are not meat. Eating take out, even though vegetarian (unless your very selective), can be pretty bad for you, too much salt, grease and starch.....and i also found i had a period of detoxification...that might be what your feeling. Good luck!
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For a quickie way of checking your iron, you could donate blood. They always check your hemoglobin levels before letting you donate.
Of course, the donation could leave you with even less energy for at least a few days... but it's free, and at least you'd know if your iron level was decent or not. -
Excellent idea, although I couldn't tell them that I've gotten a tattoo in the past year...I've gotten rejected in the past for that.
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Whatchuwant wrote: Thanks, Raw. I was thinking of B12 as well as iron deficiencies that I may have. I also have to mention that I've got joint pain (tendinitis in an elbow and knee that never had never existed until now).
The joint pain is weird and could have nothing to do with your diet. I'd see a doctor immediately and make sure you don't have an autoimmune disease, like lupus.
I have never been a big red meat eater, but it may be the nutrients that I'm missing. Hate to mention this around the boys, but around the time I'm surfin the crimson wave, I get a serious red meat craving. -
I've been a vegetarian for 18 years, so hopefully I can help you out here. Are you eating out a lot? Eating processed foods? These will sap your energy. To be a healthy pescatarian, you'll need to cook at home more: grains, legumes, vegetables.
I know when I first became vegetarian I ate like crap because pizza is vegetarian, and so are chips and dip. Most meat eaters have no idea what vegetarians eat and if they become vegetarians, try to subsist on only salads. That's not going to cut it. Get a cookbook to start you off. Join the food-coop. Check out some of their free (and open to non members) classes on cooking. They also have classes on vegetarianism once in a while.
If you do end up going to the doctor, note that doctors don't take a lot of courses in nutrition and generally aren't up on the health benefits of a vegetarian diet. You may also hear from your friends "are you getting enough protein?" This seems to be the first thing out of anyone's mouth when I or anyone I know mentions they're a vegetarian. It's a big, big myth that one needs a lot of protein. It would be difficult to eat a well-balanced vegetarian diet that didn't have enough protein. Almost any combination of foods, anywhere in the world, from a wide variety of whole foods and with enough calories, will meet adult protein needs.
Americans typically eat too much protein. It's been estimated that the average person in this country eats two - six times more protein, usually from animals, than is needed for good nutrition.
Animal protein is considered "complete" because it comes from one food (e.g. an egg or steak) when vegetable proteins supply it in two (e.g. beans and rice). The proteins are made of the same amino acids, and the chemistry is exactly the same, whether the source is animal, vegetable, or mineral. We need to get the essential amino acids from our diet and it doesn't matter what foods they come from. Just eat any grain and any legumes sometime during the same day. That's it. It's pretty diffcult to become protein deficient.
Good luck. it took me some time to balance out and eat right. Hang in there.
Edit: regarding iron, another myth that being vegetarian means you're at a higher risk to develop iron deficiency. There are two forms of iron and the one from meat is definitely easier to absorb, but the rest of the iron out there comes from plants, vegetables, grains and nuts. You just have to eat more of these types of foods and as a pescatarian, it should be easy for you. You just can't have a diet consisting of pizza and beer.
One more thing: Becoming a vegetarian or pescatarian, you'll end up being really well read in your dietary choice because everyone is an armchair nutritionist. I had people pick fights with me over my diet, want to debate my choices, and generally try to tell me that my diet is wrong, that my facts are wrong and that they're right and that meat is good. Whatever, people can eat what they want, but before you go changing what you're eating based on what people say (including myself) find pro-vegetarian research out there (because vegetarianism is in the minority) and read, read, read. -
Wow- DD-thanks so much for the info. You're correct, I've been eating more processed food (fake chicken tenders, boca burgers, pizza...). And while I love to cook, I feel limited to steamed veggies, rice, pasta, bread, CHEESE, so that's been frustrating for me (and I've gained a few pounds as a result- me NOT happy about that)
And you're abcolutely correct about the amount of protein one needs. When I first started, I ran into a nutritienist friend of mine who said that protein is not an issue, we (meat and non-meat eaters) don't need nearly as much as we think we do. I eat eggs and she felt that that was completely sufficient.
I'm hitting the library tomorrow and will study up. And thank you so much for the well wishes! Starting to feel not so lost in the woods...:) -
Whatchuwant wrote: Wow- DD-thanks so much for the info. You're correct, I've been eating more processed food (fake chicken tenders, boca burgers, pizza...). And while I love to cook, I feel limited to steamed veggies, rice, pasta, bread, CHEESE, so that's been frustrating for me (and I've gained a few pounds as a result- me NOT happy about that)
My pleasure! When I first became a vegetarian, we didn't have all of those processed fake meats and I had no choice but to cook stuff from scratch. Nowadays, new vegetarians tend to rely of this kind of stuff a lot. It's delicious, but it shouldn't be your main source of protein or food.
The stuff you're eating is definitely what someone who's new to vegetarian eats. I used to only eat pasta and it took me a while to branch out. Now, I barely eat it, maybe once every two months. If you do eat pasta or bread or rice, try for whole grains (anything brown).
Do a search on Amazon to find the higher rated vegetarian books. There are so many, that I can't even begin to recommend one. Oh, our own Isa chandra Moskowitz came out with a new cookbook! It's vegan (dairy, egg free), but it's worth looking at.
http://www.amazon.com/Veganomicon-Ultimate-Isa-Chandra-Moskowitz/dp/156924264X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209326923&sr=8-1 -
doublediamond wrote:
I typed 'iron deficiency vegetarian' into PubMed and found numerous of abstracts indicating vegetarians are at greater risk of iron deficiency. including this one:
Edit: regarding iron, another myth that being vegetarian means you're at a higher risk to develop iron deficiency.
Vitamin and iron status in new vegetarians.
Helman AD, Darnton-Hill I. Am J Clin Nutr. 1987 Apr;45(4):785-9.
This study assessed the biochemical status of a number of vitamins and iron in a group of new vegetarians. Values were compared with a group of omnivores of similar age. Satisfactory to high levels of serum folate, vitamin E, and riboflavin were found, and all were significantly higher in vegetarians than omnivores. Thiamin status was satisfactory in both groups although a small but statistically significant difference in favor of the omnivores was found. Serum vitamin B-12 was significantly lower in vegetarians, and iron status as measured by serum ferritin was very significantly lower in vegetarians. Pyridoxine status was similar in both groups. A number of sex differences were found in the vegetarian sample. New vegetarian women appear to be at particular risk of developing low iron stores. -
doctorj wrote: [quote=doublediamond]
I typed 'iron deficiency vegetarian' into PubMed and found numerous of abstracts indicating vegetarians are at greater risk of iron deficiency. including this one:
Edit: regarding iron, another myth that being vegetarian means you're at a higher risk to develop iron deficiency.
Vitamin and iron status in new vegetarians.
Helman AD, Darnton-Hill I. Am J Clin Nutr. 1987 Apr;45(4):785-9.
This study assessed the biochemical status of a number of vitamins and iron in a group of new vegetarians. Values were compared with a group of omnivores of similar age. Satisfactory to high levels of serum folate, vitamin E, and riboflavin were found, and all were significantly higher in vegetarians than omnivores. Thiamin status was satisfactory in both groups although a small but statistically significant difference in favor of the omnivores was found. Serum vitamin B-12 was significantly lower in vegetarians, and iron status as measured by serum ferritin was very significantly lower in vegetarians. Pyridoxine status was similar in both groups. A number of sex differences were found in the vegetarian sample. New vegetarian women appear to be at particular risk of developing low iron stores.
New vegetarians? From what I understand, a lowering of b-12 taking a very long time. We store between 2 and 5 micrograms of vitamin B12 and only excrete a very small fraction of this each day. To see a "significantly lower" amount would take time. It's found in egg and dairy products, which vegetarians typically eat.
Regarding the iron, perhaps the results were talking about haem iron, which vegetarians would have significantly lower amounts of, since that comes from animals compared to non-haem iron which comes from plants. Haem iron from meat is bound to hemoglobin and stored in ferritin. There are different ways of measuring the body’s iron and determining whether a person has iron deficiency disorders such as anemia. The most common measures both hemoglobin levels and serum ferritin. (R S Gibson, 1990, Principles of nutritional assessment, First Edition, Oxford University Press, Ch 17, p 349-372)
The American Dietetic Association states: “Incidence of iron deficiency among vegetarians and vegans are similar to non-vegetarians therefore vegans and vegetarians are not at greater risk from this condition. Vegetarians and vegans have lower iron stores compared to non-vegetarians however their serum ferritin levels are usually within the normal healthy range.” - ADA Report, 2003, Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets, 103, 6, p 748-765
Unless someone has a crap diet or some health problem, vegetarian or not, it's easy to eat the right amount of iron. Heck, it's even in breakfast cereals. Practically everything is fortified with iron these days.
Let me nip a potential debate in the bud. I really, really dislike debating my dietary choice, especially online. I'm sure you can find a bunch of articles supporting the opposite of the position I hold. And there's a ton of info supporting the vegetarian diet. I'm not interested in having an online debate over it though. If that wasn't your intention, my apologies, these things typically lead into that direction. -
doublediamond wrote: I've been a vegetarian for 18 years, so hopefully I can help you out here. Are you eating out a lot? Eating processed foods? These will sap your energy. To be a healthy pescatarian, you'll need to cook at home more: grains, legumes, vegetables.
As a doctor (and an ardent non-vegetarian), I still have to agree with every single point you've made.
I know when I first became vegetarian I ate like crap because pizza is vegetarian, and so are chips and dip. Most meat eaters have no idea what vegetarians eat and if they become vegetarians, try to subsist on only salads. That's not going to cut it. Get a cookbook to start you off. Join the food-coop. Check out some of their free (and open to non members) classes on cooking. They also have classes on vegetarianism once in a while.
If you do end up going to the doctor, note that doctors don't take a lot of courses in nutrition and generally aren't up on the health benefits of a vegetarian diet. You may also hear from your friends "are you getting enough protein?" This seems to be the first thing out of anyone's mouth when I or anyone I know mentions they're a vegetarian. It's a big, big myth that one needs a lot of protein. It would be difficult to eat a well-balanced vegetarian diet that didn't have enough protein. Almost any combination of foods, anywhere in the world, from a wide variety of whole foods and with enough calories, will meet adult protein needs.
Americans typically eat too much protein. It's been estimated that the average person in this country eats two - six times more protein, usually from animals, than is needed for good nutrition.
Animal protein is considered "complete" because it comes from one food (e.g. an egg or steak) when vegetable proteins supply it in two (e.g. beans and rice). The proteins are made of the same amino acids, and the chemistry is exactly the same, whether the source is animal, vegetable, or mineral. We need to get the essential amino acids from our diet and it doesn't matter what foods they come from. Just eat any grain and any legumes sometime during the same day. That's it. It's pretty diffcult to become protein deficient.
Good luck. it took me some time to balance out and eat right. Hang in there.
Edit: regarding iron, another myth that being vegetarian means you're at a higher risk to develop iron deficiency. There are two forms of iron and the one from meat is definitely easier to absorb, but the rest of the iron out there comes from plants, vegetables, grains and nuts. You just have to eat more of these types of foods and as a pescatarian, it should be easy for you. You just can't have a diet consisting of pizza and beer.
One more thing: Becoming a vegetarian or pescatarian, you'll end up being really well read in your dietary choice because everyone is an armchair nutritionist. I had people pick fights with me over my diet, want to debate my choices, and generally try to tell me that my diet is wrong, that my facts are wrong and that they're right and that meat is good. Whatever, people can eat what they want, but before you go changing what you're eating based on what people say (including myself) find pro-vegetarian research out there (because vegetarianism is in the minority) and read, read, read. -
doublediamond wrote:
If you have this report: does it cite a primary reference or say where it's getting its numbers from, regarding incidence of iron deficiency?
The American Dietetic Association states: “Incidence of iron deficiency among vegetarians and vegans are similar to non-vegetarians therefore vegans and vegetarians are not at greater risk from this condition. Vegetarians and vegans have lower iron stores compared to non-vegetarians however their serum ferritin levels are usually within the normal healthy range.” - ADA Report, 2003, Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets, 103, 6, p 748-765doublediamond wrote:
I agree it should be easy, vegetarian or not. Yet apparently in practice a lot of people still suffer from low iron. This recent study emphasises high menstrual losses as a factor, but also finds a significant correlation with diet.
Unless someone has a crap diet or some health problem, vegetarian or not, it's easy to eat the right amount of iron.doublediamond wrote:
Absolutely not my intention to debate diet. On the one hand I don't care what people eat, and on the other there are clear and well known benefits to being a vegetarian.
If that wasn't your intention, my apologies, these things typically lead into that direction.
I would just like to know whether more female vegetarians than non-vegetarians in developed countries get iron deficiency -- what do the rates look like? So far all I can find is unreferenced or poorly referenced assertions that the risk is same. But all the primary literature data I'm seeing from different countries using various measures says that vegetarianism is associated with poor iron. Maybe that's no longer the case, or maybe there's a more conclusive study I've missed? If I've been misled on this subject, I'd like to know what the facts are.
Here's an example of what bothers me: on a random webpage for vegetarians,
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm#r2
"Vegetarians do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than do meat eaters."...
"Some might expect that since the vegan diet contains a form of iron that is not that well absorbed, vegans might be prone to developing iron deficiency anemia. However, surveys of vegans 2,3 have found that iron deficiency anemia is no more common among vegetarians than among the general population although vegans tend to have lower iron stores 3."
But when I check the pair of abstracts they reference, they don't support this assertion. One (a survey of just 25 vegans) doesn't say much, and the other one (a larger study) says that iron status was compromised by a vegetarian diet. This doesn't look good. -
Hey doctorj,
Thanks for clearing up where you're coming from with all of this. I won't be able to do so tonight, but I'll try to poke around tomorrow night to see what else I can find.
Howdy, Stranger!
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