Motorcycle accident on Bergen and 4th
Yesterday at 5:45 pm I was walking up Bergen from 4th. A motorcyclist going IMO too fast went by. I heard a long crunching noise and turned around to see him flying ont the sidewalk, face down with his hands out to land on.
Where can I read accident reports? I want to know what happened.
Where can I read accident reports? I want to know what happened.
Comments
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I live on that block and saw the aftermath. A neighbor who was there at the time told me what happened.
A motorcycle was going fast and did not see that a car was turning left from Bergen onto 4th. The bike swerved to miss but ended up crashing into a car parked on the corner of Bergen at 4th (south side of street). The people on the bike were not seriously injured but were taken away by ambulence just in case. They also did not have a license to be driving a motorcycle. The drivers of the car were there talking to police when I walked by, and they seemed pretty calm.
I walked by the car that was smashed (back window completely broken, back door somewhat smashed) this morning on my way to work and there was a note for the owner (I'm assuming they hadn't been there yet, but don't know) and their back window was covered in plastic. -
Wow, nothing against a person's personal choice, but I think those things (motorcycles) are death machines.
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kosherdave wrote: Wow, nothing against a person's personal choice, but I think those things (motorcycles) are death machines.
No more so than bicycles. -
Did anyone else see the accident?
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WhyFi wrote: [quote=kosherdave]Wow, nothing against a person's personal choice, but I think those things (motorcycles) are death machines.
No more so than bicycles.
seriously?
I personally know 4 people who've died from motorcycles, none from bikes.
I know a LOT more people with bikes. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=kosherdave]Wow, nothing against a person's personal choice, but I think those things (motorcycles) are death machines.
No more so than bicycles.
Motorcycles are not more dangerous than bicycles? I find that one hard to believe. I think you have a much higher chance of being killed if you are in a motorcycle accident then if you are in a bike accident. -
Apparently he is fine and just upset he didnt make the flea market where he was heading. He left a comment on Brownstoner thread about the flea market stating he was in a collision and was taken to the hospital, etc.
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arlette, I think that is a different person - he was referring to regular bikes (I guess they are dangerous too...), and it happened around 10am.
This incident in this thread happened around 5:30pm. -
I'm not talking about recreation - as a form of transportation, no, I don't think that bikes are any more safe than motorcycles. I've been a commuter with both, and not getting hit by others is your chief concern for either. Serious motorcyclists are the the best, most aware drivers out there. Unfortunately, a lot of idiots are drawn to motorcycles like moths to a flame - they're usually the ones getting in to accidents and giving other motorcyclists, and motorcycles themselves, a bad name.
In short, motorcycles are kinda like pitbulls
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Left-turning cars, they will get you every time.. I read somewhere that something like 75% of MC accidents have something to do with a car turning left in front of them. Gotta watch out.
I realize that the guy here didn't actually hit the turning car, but same idea.
As for MC's being "death machines," that is because a lot of people don't properly learn how to ride, but more importantly because there are too many damn cars on the road. I think we are like the only country besides maybe Canada that doesn't treat motorcycles as a legitimate form of transportation.
If more people rode bikes and scooters instead of our culture which revolves around planting one's lazy ass inside a four+ seater car, there would be less risk to riding, less gas consumption, less traffic, less pollution, less pedestrian casualties, etc. etc. -
Jamzer wrote: [quote=WhyFi][quote=kosherdave]Wow, nothing against a person's personal choice, but I think those things (motorcycles) are death machines.
No more so than bicycles.
Motorcycles are not more dangerous than bicycles? I find that one hard to believe. I think you have a much higher chance of being killed if you are in a motorcycle accident then if you are in a bike accident.
Let's face it, they're both equally dangerous for their own reasons, but they both share the fact that there is no metal around you to protect you like a car would (you know, depending on the impact).
My ex got hit from behind on his bicycle while riding down Washington Ave a few years back. Cracked his skull, was "slow" for about a year, and has permanently lost his sense of smell. No helmet. -
WhyFi wrote: I'm not talking about recreation - as a form of transportation, no, I don't think that bikes are any more safe than motorcycles. I've been a commuter with both, and not getting hit by others is your chief concern for either. Serious motorcyclists are the the best, most aware drivers out there. Unfortunately, a lot of idiots are drawn to motorcycles like moths to a flame - they're usually the ones getting in to accidents and giving other motorcyclists, and motorcycles themselves, a bad name.
That I can agree with. I think it's often the driver that's the hot head, not the bike. Though I will say that one of the 4 people I know who was killed was not a hot head and was struck by a car (not his fault) but if he was in another car, chances are he'd have been fine. I'm not saying motorcycles are always the cause of the accident, just that they generally don't hold up well against a car or truck.
In short, motorcycles are kinda like pitbulls
I should also add that my fiance's mom broke her back on a motorcycle accident. Again, would have been fine in a car.
Also should add that I 100% agree we have too many cars.
If we had fewer cars and fewer hotheads.... -
kosherdave wrote: If we had fewer cars and fewer hotheads....
Not going to happen anytime soon. -
Bicycles and motorcycles are not equally dangerous. Take these stats with a grain of salt. They come from the internet and who knows, but according to Wikipedia there were 4,008 motorcycle fatalities in 2004. There were 725 bicycle fatalities in 2004 according to Bicycleuniverse.com. Both sites cite the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration as the source for their information. Bicycle fatalities are probably underreported, so even if you double the number of fatalities, its still way less than motorcycle fatalities.
Anytime you get hit in the head when you are not wearing a helmet it is likely to have a bad impact. That has no bearing on which mode of transportation is more dangerous. If you still think that there is no difference from a safety perspective, feel free to think that and certainly don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.
The lesson is - get off your motorcycle and ride a bike! -
^Quoting straight numbers isn't really accurate though- how many people ride bikes as a primary mode of transportation or more than 5 miles a week? WAY less than people who ride motorcycles fo the same reason. I'd put more stock in those numbers if they were percents of a total amount of bike/moto riders (IE 8% of daily motorcycle riders die versus 1% of daily bike riders or whatever) Without knowing the entire universe of the population, it's really irrelevant to know the specific numbers surrounding the fatalities.
I hope that made sense. It's too early... -
Carmen wrote: ^Quoting straight numbers isn't really accurate though- how many people ride bikes as a primary mode of transportation or more than 5 miles a week? WAY less than people who ride motorcycles fo the same reason. I'd put more stock in those numbers if they were percents of a total amount of bike/moto riders (IE 8% of daily motorcycle riders die versus 1% of daily bike riders or whatever) Without knowing the entire universe of the population, it's really irrelevant to know the specific numbers surrounding the fatalities.
It does not make sense.
I hope that made sense. It's too early...
This is kind of silly, but I'll try again.
The point is you are more likely to die if you ride a motorcycle than if you ride a bike. Kind of makes sense when you consider that motorcycles go 65 mph or more and are ridden on highways. I guess if you control for speed and distance - say ride a bicycle on the highway at 65 mph, or ride a motorcycle around the park at 10 mph - then yes a bicycle is just as dangerous as a motorcycle. Since neither ever happen, it does not make any sense to use that form of analysis.
Also - ever wonder why children are allowed to ride bicycles but you have to be at least 17 with a driverse licence to drive a motorcycle? Its because motorcycles are more dangerous. Crazy stuff, no? -
I'm not saying motorcycles are NOT more dangerous, I'm just saying that quoting those statistics is flawed. Here's a clearer example (with made up numbers)-
One could argue that 1400 people die a year driving a car, while only 13 people die a year skydiving. Does this mean that driving is exponentially more dangerous than skydiving? No, because way more people drive than skydive and the proportion of people who die skydiving is higher than the proportion of people driving a car. Similarly, way more people drive a motorcycle as their primary/daily form of transportation than ride bikes for the same reason so I feel like quoting those numbers is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. -
Carmen wrote: I'm not saying motorcycles are NOT more dangerous, I'm just saying that quoting those statistics is flawed. Here's a clearer example (with made up numbers)-
That wasn't the point. But you win the argument we were not having.
One could argue that 1400 people die a year driving a car, while only 13 people die a year skydiving. Does this mean that driving is exponentially more dangerous than skydiving? No, because way more people drive than skydive and the proportion of people who die skydiving is higher than the proportion of people driving a car. Similarly, way more people drive a motorcycle as their primary/daily form of transportation than ride bikes for the same reason so I feel like quoting those numbers is kind of like comparing apples to oranges.
I was responding to the comment that motorcycles and bicyles are equally dangerous. They are not. Statistics and logic bear that out. -
Jamzer wrote: Statistics and logic bear that out.
Uh, no. Carmen was addressing your "statistics and logic," and how inconclusive it is, but you just didn't wanna hear it. -
Personally, getting hit by a bike is my biggest fear. Motorcycles you can hear coming. If I had a dollar for every time some cyclist whizzed past me or jerked to avoid hitting me as I went to cross a street. I always fantasize about yelling at them but I'm alway too stunned by the near-death experience to react.
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Biking scares the hell out of me- I've almost been hit by so many cars its unbelievable. People absolutely need to pay more attention when using a bike lane to paralell park. I cant even count the amount of times I've been riding along in my bike lane and some giant SUV jerks into the bike lane and totally stops to back into a parking spot. No warning, no blinker...as a biker you have few options there (usually A) swerve into traffic and pray the people behind you dont run you down,
run into the back of the car trying to park or C) try to emergency hop the curb in the parking spot and not kill yourself.) Scary. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Jamzer]Statistics and logic bear that out.
Uh, no. Carmen was addressing your "statistics and logic," and how inconclusive it is, but you just didn't wanna hear it.
Not true. I just disagree and I've found better statistics to back it up.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/helmets.html
Again with the ususal disclaimer that you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but LOGIC seems to bear this out.
The death rate per million miles travelled is .2 for bicycles and 27.6 for motorcycles.
The injury rate per million miles travelled is 15 for bicycles and 551 for motorcycles. -
You should not just consider people's commutes (and therefore assume more people ride a motorcycle to work than a bike). I do commute sometimes to work, but usually just go on an hour bike ride. There are a LOT of people doing that. I'm sure there are WAY more bikes (at least in this city) than motorcycles. WAY more. Just go out and stand on a corner for 5 minutes and count the delivery guys on bikes.
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Obamanut wrote: Left-turning cars, they will get you every time.. I read somewhere that something like 75% of MC accidents have something to do with a car turning left in front of them. Gotta watch out.
I'll plant my ass in anything I please. My life, my choice. How do you expects families with kids to get around on scooters or the elderly. There are lots of bikers who cause accidents. I know a few people hit by those messenger ass*oles who don't obey rules. More people drive cars than bikes. Get used to it and stop whining.
I realize that the guy here didn't actually hit the turning car, but same idea.
As for MC's being "death machines," that is because a lot of people don't properly learn how to ride, but more importantly because there are too many damn cars on the road. I think we are like the only country besides maybe Canada that doesn't treat motorcycles as a legitimate form of transportation.
If more people rode bikes and scooters instead of our culture which revolves around planting one's lazy ass inside a four+ seater car, there would be less risk to riding, less gas consumption, less traffic, less pollution, less pedestrian casualties, etc. etc. -
Jamzer wrote: Not true. I just disagree and I've found better statistics to back it up.
These are your "better" statistics? That's not saying much - they're still crap.kosherdave wrote: You should not just consider people's commutes (and therefore assume more people ride a motorcycle to work than a bike). I do commute sometimes to work, but usually just go on an hour bike ride. There are a LOT of people doing that. I'm sure there are WAY more bikes (at least in this city) than motorcycles. WAY more. Just go out and stand on a corner for 5 minutes and count the delivery guys on bikes.
This is why I was trying to differentiate between bicycling as a form of transportation and as a form of leisure. I'm sure that most miles put on bikes are on dedicated paths, not on roadways shared with vehicles. Again, the greatest concern, on a bike or motorcycle, is being hit by others. Whatchuwant hit the nail on the head - it's about the protection in the event of a collision, and it's equal either way - pretty much none. Sharing the same roadway and assuming responsible operation (wheelie-at-every-straightaway idiots need not apply), motorcycles are just as safe as bicycles. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Jamzer]Not true. I just disagree and I've found better statistics to back it up.
These are your "better" statistics? That's not saying much - they're still crap.kosherdave wrote: You should not just consider people's commutes (and therefore assume more people ride a motorcycle to work than a bike). I do commute sometimes to work, but usually just go on an hour bike ride. There are a LOT of people doing that. I'm sure there are WAY more bikes (at least in this city) than motorcycles. WAY more. Just go out and stand on a corner for 5 minutes and count the delivery guys on bikes.
This is why I was trying to differentiate between bicycling as a form of transportation and as a form of leisure. I'm sure that most miles put on bikes are on dedicated paths, not on roadways shared with vehicles. Again, the greatest concern, on a bike or motorcycle, is being hit by others. Whatchuwant hit the nail on the head - it's about the protection in the event of a collision, and it's equal either way - pretty much none. Sharing the same roadway and assuming responsible operation (wheelie-at-every-straightaway idiots need not apply), motorcycles are just as safe as bicycles.
Yeah, but originally the point was made that they are equally dangerous. Clearly, since bikes are on paths "most of the time" they are not equally dangerous.
But this is kinda moot, my original point was I thought they (motorcycles) were death machines :-) -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Jamzer]Not true. I just disagree and I've found better statistics to back it up.
These are your "better" statistics? That's not saying much - they're still crap.kosherdave wrote: You should not just consider people's commutes (and therefore assume more people ride a motorcycle to work than a bike). I do commute sometimes to work, but usually just go on an hour bike ride. There are a LOT of people doing that. I'm sure there are WAY more bikes (at least in this city) than motorcycles. WAY more. Just go out and stand on a corner for 5 minutes and count the delivery guys on bikes.
This is why I was trying to differentiate between bicycling as a form of transportation and as a form of leisure. I'm sure that most miles put on bikes are on dedicated paths, not on roadways shared with vehicles. Again, the greatest concern, on a bike or motorcycle, is being hit by others. Whatchuwant hit the nail on the head - it's about the protection in the event of a collision, and it's equal either way - pretty much none. Sharing the same roadway and assuming responsible operation (wheelie-at-every-straightaway idiots need not apply), motorcycles are just as safe as bicycles.
What is your fundamental issue WhyFi? By any measure motorcycles are more dangerous than bicycles. Any attempt by you to argue otherwise is just silly and inacurate. Yes - if you are hit by car, you are toast if you are on a bike or a motorcycle. But that is not the point. Bicycles and motorcycles are used differently and that factors into the relative safety of each - as the statistics prove. -
kosherdave wrote: Yeah, but originally the point was made that they are equally dangerous.
With similar usage, yes.kosherdave wrote: But this is kinda moot, my original point was I thought they (motorcycles) were death machines
And I'm just clarifying - they're not dangerous, other drivers are... unless you're just not used to wielding that kind of power between your legs...
Jamzer wrote: You have anger issues WhyFi - take a breather and try to relax.
I have anger issues because I point out that you picked crap statistics? Uh, okay... -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=kosherdave]Yeah, but originally the point was made that they are equally dangerous.
With similar usage, yes.kosherdave wrote: But this is kinda moot, my original point was I thought they (motorcycles) were death machines
And I'm just clarifying - they're not dangerous, other drivers are... unless you're just not used to wielding that kind of power between your legs...Jamzer wrote: You have anger issues WhyFi - take a breather and try to relax.
I have anger issues because I point out that you picked crap statistics? Uh, okay...
Well talking about it is the first step..... -
Jamzer wrote: What is your fundamental issue WhyFi?
I haven't found out my fundamental issue yet, but I think that I've made more progress than most...Jamzer wrote: By any measure motorcycles are more dangerous than bicycles. Any attempt by you to argue otherwise is just silly and inacurate. Yes - if you are hit by car, you are toast if you are on a bike or a motorcycle.
So... if the danger of being hit by a car is the similar, what, in your mind, makes you argue that motorcycles are more dangerous? What, they go faster? A high power-to-weight ratio DOES make motorcycles more potentially dangerous when mishandled, and it DOES attract would-be daredevils, but don't mistake poor user judgment with inherent danger.
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