NYT article about children in cafes
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html
This takes place in Chicago but both sides of the argument sound pretty familiar...
This takes place in Chicago but both sides of the argument sound pretty familiar...
Comments
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nice to know it's a nationwide epidemic . . .
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Subject: Kids in Coffee Shops
Trust me, I live in Park Slope. The parents basically ruined the Tea Lounge and they try their best at Gorilla Coffee.
What kind of an airheaded parent brings a side-by-side stroller into Gorilla Coffee?
I like kids, but get a clue, go to Tea Lounge it's where you belong. Don't ruin Gorilla with your little brats. -
Oh please! Can we have this conversation again?! :roll:
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I hate to ignite this again, but I just love this part:
Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children wrote: I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?
I guess it didn't occur to her that other people there might want to enjoy themselves at a cafe. -
Carnivore wrote: I hate to ignite this again, but I just love this part:
I guess it didn't occur to her that other people there might want to enjoy themselves at a cafe.
[quote=Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children]I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?
That's a sickening baby boomer mentality on Laura Brauer's part. The concept that this is 'my kid' and I will allow them to do whatever they want. If you hate lazy hipsters, guess what attitude helped breed them? This attitude of making excuses rather than respecting others needs and the self-centeredness that dictates just because one has 'bred' and 'spawned' a child they somehow get a free ride as far as social respect goes.
If a kid is in public and really disrupting others, what exactly is wrong about teaching the children that they should be careful of the needs of others. Gratned, sometimes it won't change anything. But sometimes it just makes sense to at least place the seed for the respect of others in kids when they are young rather than trying to unravel the mess later on in life. -
Jack wrote: [quote=Carnivore]I hate to ignite this again, but I just love this part:
I guess it didn't occur to her that other people there might want to enjoy themselves at a cafe.
[quote=Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting A Taste of Heaven with her two children]I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?
That's a sickening baby boomer mentality on Laura Brauer's part. The concept that this is 'my kid' and I will allow them to do whatever they want. If you hate lazy hipsters, guess what attitude helped breed them? This attitude of making excuses rather than respecting others needs and the self-centeredness that dictates just because one has 'bred' and 'spawned' a child they somehow get a free ride as far as social respect goes.
If a kid is in public and really disrupting others, what exactly is wrong about teaching the children that they should be careful of the needs of others. Gratned, sometimes it won't change anything. But sometimes it just makes sense to at least place the seed for the respect of others in kids when they are young rather than trying to unravel the mess later on in life.
I completely and whole-heartedly agree. What do you know!
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I guess it didn't occur to her that other people there might want to enjoy themselves at a cafe.
There are some people to whom very little occurs, save for what directly affects them.
I would not expect to walk into the middle of the Park Slope Tot Lot and expect all the wee bairns to shush up so I could read some Proust. If I were at a screening of Madagascar, I wouldn't be at all surprised or annoyed to hear the soft and/or shrill yelps of the young.
But tonight, at a French, avant-garde movement theater performance, where the least expensive tickets were $50, and quiet was paramount in some places, would it have been just too much to expect some, well, quiet, rather than having a 7-year-old shrieking, loudly asking "Why's he doing that?", squeaking her chair, and kicking my seat? No, of course a little child couldn't be expected to sit silently through that. So don't bring the little child! I gritted my teeth and tried to ignore, but everyone in our row was turning around and flinching at the yelps, and I firmly believe they had a right to show their annoyance.
The mother made a token effort at the beginning to tell her child that the ushers were actually policewomen, and would make them leave if she talked, but clearly this particular young lady has yet to develop a fear of the constabulary. Hey - lovely that you're exposing the kiddiewinks to the culture, but maybe try the matinee time? Is that too much to ask? The performance was atounding, but what I'll most remember is your child squeaking and kicking my seat.
I don't know how much sitters are getting paid these days, but I'm thinking that 90 minutes of care HAS to be less than the ticket was. -
Parents of small kids have an obligation to try to teach their kids from going wild in public spaces, and to at least try to control them and correct them when they do. That's how kids learn to live in society.
But--even when parents of small kids make their best efforts, the kids are sometimes going to be loud and bother others in public spaces. That's also how kids learn to live in society -- by going out in public where they may make mistakes that, yes, are going to annoy people who don't have kids, but who were once unsocialized kids themselves.
A parent who thinks he should be able to take his kids into a cafe to run around, scream and blow off steam without making any attempt to quiet them is an entitled jerk. A cafe patron who expects people to keep their kids out of cafes until they are old enough to be quiet and unobtrusive, 100% of the time, without the need for correction, is also an entitled jerk. (And I'll agree, a 7 year old probably does not belong at an avant-garde theater show.)
A cafe has every right to post an "indoor voices" rule. And parents have every right to boycott that cafe if they feel unwelcome there. And childless people have every right to flock to that cafe, and boycott other ones that are more receptive to kids. That's the beauty of the market.
Is this really such a complicated isssue? -
linusvanpelt wrote: A parent who thinks he should be able to take his kids into a cafe to run around, scream and blow off steam without making any attempt to quiet them is an entitled jerk. A cafe patron who expects people to keep their kids out of cafes until they are old enough to be quiet and unobtrusive, 100% of the time, without the need for correction, is also an entitled jerk..........Is this really such a complicated isssue?
Thank you Linus. Your wise and witty comments have brought this discussion to a new (much higher) level. Bravo!! -
Subject: Re: Kids in Coffee Shops
yuppieparentsstink wrote: Trust me, I live in Park Slope. The parents basically ruined the Tea Lounge and they try their best at Gorilla Coffee.
What kind of an airheaded parent brings a side-by-side stroller into Gorilla Coffee?
I like kids, but get a clue, go to Tea Lounge it's where you belong. Don't ruin Gorilla with your little brats.
maybe we can install something at the door there. have you seen those spikes they put up at car rental places that, if you try to go out through the entrance, they bust up your tires? is there a miniature version of that?
i'm kidding. i love you, Park Slope parents, your ridiculous strollers, and the black and blue marks on my shins. i'm about two years away from becoming one of you anyway. -
If I ever have a baby, (s)he'll walk and like it!
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greenermjr wrote: If I ever have a baby, (s)he'll walk and like it!
Can't wait to see the photos of your 6-month-old twins walking (quietly, of course, in single file). You should write a book of advice for parents before you actually become one -- it's so much easier to parent kids when you don't have any! -
Subject: Re: NYT article about children in cafes
EmilyM wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html
There's a correction to the original article in today's NYT.
This takes place in Chicago but both sides of the argument sound pretty familiar...
Evidently is was *not* the Women's and Children's bookstore that booted the lady for breastfeeding. Everything else in the article made sense to me tho . . . -
Here's an article on MSN about the growing divide. Starts out with the guy from Taste of Heaven, but explores both sides. Most meaningful part:
Too often, though, our cultural emphasis on freedom and individual rights gets taken to the extreme, becoming “a kind of selfish entitlement that undermines our ability to function as a civil community,†said George Scarlett, a professor of child development at Tufts University in Boston.
“The rights of any one individual  whether he or she be a parent, child or stranger  do not negate the rights of others.†-
Subject: Get real!
People. . . here's the deal, there are no public spaces. Unfortunately, a coffee shop is the most free-flowing public space a kid will find in the city (in the winter, that is).
Kids can not stay cooped up in apartments. EVERYONE needs to be tolerant of others. It's unrealistic for yuppies to think that they can "work" and slug down coffee as if it's their own apartment, just as much as it is for a kid to do somersaults and scream at the top of their lungs. Both sides need to expect that a coffeeshop is a democratic place for all.
That's how I see it anyway. -
No-I do not keep my child locked up inside-and, yes, I took him all over when he was a toddler also (he is 5 now)-but, he was expected to behave. And , yes-kids do scream for no reason-but, parents should not expect other people to put up with it. Of course-if we are in a movie theater watching Madagascar-well-yeah-deal.
But other places where kids aren't the norm-especially restaurants? then yes-you should be concerned about others there and your child should be taught that other people's feelings matter and they also have a right to enjoy themselves. The child should be taught how to behave or the parents and child should leave-as a parent-you should be prepared for that.
But, somehow in this neighborhood-I see a lot of overindulged kids and my kid will say "oh look-so and so does/acts/says those things" and I personally have no problem telling my son that I think that behavior is incorrect. We are not raising our kids to live in a vacuum-but in a society and it ticks me off that other parents don't feel the same way.
Oh-and to the person complaining about double strollers-suck it up! If someone has twins or 2 children close in age-then they need to be in a double stroller. -
Subject: maybe there should be hours...
I've stopped going to Tea Lounge on weekends, it's kiddie time, and that's OK. Maybe there should be "kid free" hours where you don't have to worry about a 3 year old running into your legs while you're carrying a large cup of hot coffee. -
Subject: Re: maybe there should be hours...
mkesq wrote: I've stopped going to Tea Lounge on weekends, it's kiddie time, and that's OK. Maybe there should be "kid free" hours where you don't have to worry about a 3 year old running into your legs while you're carrying a large cup of hot coffee.
As a parent, that would make sense to me. I can totally understand wanting to have time and space without loud toddlers. And as a parent, I also sometimes want to just get out of the house and have a destination when the weather sucks. I guess it is what I say to my 2 year olds--we need to "share" and get along. -
Subject: Re: maybe there should be hours...
mkesq wrote: I've stopped going to Tea Lounge on weekends, it's kiddie time, and that's OK. Maybe there should be "kid free" hours where you don't have to worry about a 3 year old running into your legs while you're carrying a large cup of hot coffee.
Dogs can run free in the park from 8 a.m. to 9 a.m. Why not the same for kiddies? -
Subject: Kid-free time
Somebody should print this and give it to Tea Lounge. I can't even stand going there any more.....between kids running around and moms changing diapers in public (seriously unsanitary) and being bumped into by strollers without any apology......... -
Subject: Gorilla Coffee
If you are single and in your twenties or thirties, kind of on the intellectual side, do yourself a favor and don't live in Park Slope. The Slope has hideous take out, overpriced restaurants and there really isn't any place to study comfortably in public while drinking coffee. Also, the rents in Park Slope are inflated for what you are getting. I think Park Slope sucks. Just my opinion.
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