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Wanted: Progressive, Presidential Qualities - Page 2 — Brooklynian

Wanted: Progressive, Presidential Qualities

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  • filmlover44 wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]
    I still can't believe this is a "big deal".
    It's a big deal because there are many people who believe that there is a Muslim conspiracy to take over the United States and that Obama is a part of that conspiracy, kind of like the Manchurian Candidate.

    Anyone who watches Fox News knows that this is true.

    I know that. I know a lot of people (unfortunately people I CAN'T assist with their clarifications) who won't vote for him because of his name. but. I still can't believe the MEDIA is making a big deal about this. but. yeah. I live in NY.
  • Interesting column from NY Times.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html
    But it is a mistake to conflate his African identity with his Muslim heritage. Senator Obama is half African by birth and Africans can understandably identify with him. In Islam, however, there is no such thing as a half-Muslim. Like all monotheistic religions, Islam is an exclusive faith.

    As the son of the Muslim father, Senator Obama was born a Muslim under Muslim law as it is universally understood.
    It makes no difference that, as Senator Obama has written, his father said he renounced his religion. Likewise, under Muslim law based on the Koran his mother’s Christian background is irrelevant.

    Of course, as most Americans understand it, Senator Obama is not a Muslim. He chose to become a Christian, and indeed has written convincingly to explain how he arrived at his choice and how important his Christian faith is to him.

    His conversion, however, was a crime in Muslim eyes; it is “irtidad” or “ridda,” usually translated from the Arabic as “apostasy,” but with connotations of rebellion and treason. Indeed, it is the worst of all crimes that a Muslim can commit, worse than murder (which the victim’s family may choose to forgive).

    With few exceptions, the jurists of all Sunni and Shiite schools prescribe execution for all adults who leave the faith not under duress; the recommended punishment is beheading at the hands of a cleric, although in recent years there have been both stonings and hangings. (Some may point to cases in which lesser punishments were ordered — as with some Egyptian intellectuals who have been punished for writings that were construed as apostasy — but those were really instances of supposed heresy, not explicitly declared apostasy as in Senator Obama’s case.)

    It is true that the criminal codes in most Muslim countries do not mandate execution for apostasy (although a law doing exactly that is pending before Iran’s Parliament and in two Malaysian states). But as a practical matter, in very few Islamic countries do the governments have sufficient authority to resist demands for the punishment of apostates at the hands of religious authorities.

    For example, in Iran in 1994 the intervention of Pope John Paul II and others won a Christian convert a last-minute reprieve, but the man was abducted and killed shortly after his release. Likewise, in 2006 in Afghanistan, a Christian convert had to be declared insane to prevent his execution, and he was still forced to flee to Italy.

    Because no government is likely to allow the prosecution of a President Obama — not even those of Iran and Saudi Arabia, the only two countries where Islamic religious courts dominate over secular law — another provision of Muslim law is perhaps more relevant: it prohibits punishment for any Muslim who kills any apostate, and effectively prohibits interference with such a killing.

    At the very least, that would complicate the security planning of state visits by President Obama to Muslim countries, because the very act of protecting him would be sinful for Islamic security guards. More broadly, most citizens of the Islamic world would be horrified by the fact of Senator Obama’s conversion to Christianity once it became widely known — as it would, no doubt, should he win the White House. This would compromise the ability of governments in Muslim nations to cooperate with the United States in the fight against terrorism, as well as American efforts to export democracy and human rights abroad.

    That an Obama presidency would cause such complications in our dealings with the Islamic world is not likely to be a major factor with American voters, and the implication is not that it should be. But of all the well-meaning desires projected on Senator Obama, the hope that he would decisively improve relations with the world’s Muslims is the least realistic.
  • Daver, I'm disappointed you linked to such an irresponsible and sloppy op-ed piece. This non-Muslim author takes a highly contentious theory and from it extrapolates not only how foreign leaders might see Obama, but how the Muslims world as a whole will see him. The author didn't even cite or quote a single Muslim scholar who supports his view.

    I'll let a NYTimes reader take it from here:
    To the Editor:

    Like the Jewish legal tradition, Islamic law is a conversation represented in dynamic and diverse schools of thought. Edward N. Luttwak speaks of an essentialized Islamic law that does not exist.

    Nevertheless, there is no dispute among Muslims that Islam is not an ethnic affiliation, nor is it passed through the gene pool. A Muslim parent is morally responsible for raising his or her child within Islam; children, for their part, have no legal culpability. There is no legal obligation by a child to affiliate with the Muslim community.

    Islam does not consider Barack Obama ever to have been part of the Muslim community. Apostasy has no relevance here.


    Ingrid Mattson
    Hartford, May 12, 2008

    The writer is president of the Islamic Society of North America, the largest umbrella Muslim group in the country.
    If an intelligent debate about Obama and Islam is your goal, there are reams of articles and books with more relevance.
  • daver wrote: Since Obama's "conversion" happened while still a child, he would simply be locked up until such a time as he returned to the fold. Under Islamic law, mind you.
    Where did you get this from?
    daver wrote: I believe that some of Obama's statements regarding his Muslim heritage are less than completely honest.
    His heritage? Did he ever deny his father was at one time a Muslim? Obama was certainly never a Muslim.
    daver wrote: In the scheme of things, it isn't something that particularly worries me...
    And yet you still spend time posting about Obama in 'gotcha' Muslim moments.
  • Well, what I've learned today is that if you are born to a Muslim father and a Jewish mother, you might as well commit Hari Kari 'cause you're _not_ gonna win.

    As far as posted gotcha moments, I was looking to see if the press release requested existed (it didn't) and boredom reigned and it was kind of interesting. Obama's stepfather was Muslim and I don't think it is in question that the family occasionally went to the Mosque in his early life. His family (among others) corraborates this.

    Like I said, I don't think it is a big deal, but the press release about him and Islam that he _did_ issue isn't exactly accurate. Jimmy. Corn. Don't care.
  • I think the most important thing to remember is, Islam is the gravest threat to America since Communism, and Obama clearly wants to install a caliphate.
  • An interesting refutation of Luttwak's NY Times column from the Islamic Society of North America.

    ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS, YES. BUT THEIR FACTS?
    The Times Op-Ed page, quite properly, is home to a lot of provocative opinions. But all are supposed to be grounded on the bedrock of fact. Op-Ed writers are entitled to emphasize facts that support their arguments and minimize others that don’t. But they are not entitled to get the facts wrong or to so mangle them that they present a false picture.

    Did Luttwak cross the line from fair argument to falsehood? Did Times editors fail to adequately check his facts before publishing his article? Did The Times owe readers a contrasting point of view?

    I interviewed five Islamic scholars, at five American universities, recommended by a variety of sources as experts in the field. All of them said that Luttwak’s interpretation of Islamic law was wrong.

    David Shipley, the editor of the Op-Ed page, said Luttwak’s article was vetted by editors who consulted the Koran, associated text, newspaper articles and authoritative histories of Islam. No scholars of Islam were consulted because “we do not customarily call experts to invite them to weigh in on the work of our contributors,” he said.


    That’s a pity in this case, because it might have sparked a discussion about whether Luttwak’s categorical language was misleading, at best.

    Interestingly, in defense of his own article, Luttwak sent me an analysis of it by a scholar of Muslim law whom he did not identify. That scholar also did not agree with Luttwak that Obama was an apostate or that Muslim law would prohibit punishment for any Muslim who killed an apostate. He wrote, “You seem to be describing some anarcho-utopian version of Islamic legalism, which has never existed, and after the birth of the modern nation state will never exist.”
  • NYTs wrote: No scholars of Islam were consulted because “we do not customarily call experts to invite them to weigh in on the work of our contributors,” he said
    Perhaps when it involves sweeping, inaccurate, controversial and distorted claims about one of the world's biggest religions, and its not penned by a scholar of said religion, the Times should have slightly higher standards. We're not talking about frigging congestion pricing here.

    There's enough baseless commentary out there about Islam. The Times should be better than this.
  • alafairnadia wrote: [quote=filmlover44][quote=alafairnadia]
    I still can't believe this is a "big deal".
    It's a big deal because there are many people who believe that there is a Muslim conspiracy to take over the United States and that Obama is a part of that conspiracy, kind of like the Manchurian Candidate.

    Anyone who watches Fox News knows that this is true.

    I know that. I know a lot of people (unfortunately people I CAN'T assist with their clarifications) who won't vote for him because of his name. but. I still can't believe the MEDIA is making a big deal about this. but. yeah. I live in NY.

    i second this.
  • I love that I went to college with this woman - she is smart and funny and, actually, a really nice person. her political blog this week is totally on topic. here's a link:

    http://www.glamour.com/news/blogs/glamocracy/asma/index.html

    here's the text:
    Welcome to My World, Obama

    Yesterday, a front page New York Times story detailed how American Muslim voters feel that Obama has snubbed them. His campaign even told our sole Muslim congressperson not to campaign on Obama's behalf.

    Although I agree that Obama has snubbed Muslim voters, I couldn't help but feel sorry for Obama reading the article. American Muslim leadership takes a couple big whacks at him, saying he "betrayed" them. Being disapproved of by American Muslim leadership? I am a charter member of that club, and it looks like Obama just joined. He and I will chase the elusive approval of the American Muslim community. Unlike Obama, I would love to speak at a mosque or a Muslim conference and, on rare occasion, do, but I generally do not meet leadership's rigid standards.

    On the other side, I have right-wingers and religious zealots who think that Muslims' secret mission is to enslave Christians and establish Muslim rule. Even otherwise polite people I am meeting for the first time and non-professionally will ask me offensive questions, like why haven't you Muslims condemned 9/11?

    I appreciate that politicians have to balance their message and actions with lip service to the evangelicals and hardliners in society. But even President Bush, whose policies have hurt many Muslims, visited a mosque at the time American Muslims needed a visit the most—right after 9/11. Seeing Bush and Secret Service remove their shoes at the mosque entryway, per Islamic custom, touched a place in my heart. I will never forget watching that live broadcast.

    I know Obama can remove his shoes and move me too. I, and Muslims around the world, are just waiting for it.

    What are you waiting for Obama to do? And if he doesn't, do you think he is taking your vote for granted?

    —Asma

    P.S. In our new poll, we want to know if you would vote for Cindy McCain or Michelle Obama. Tell us here.
  • Great post. I completely agree.
  • Boygabriel wrote: Great post. I completely agree.
    all of her commentary has been great - she has a weekly gig with glamour (hilarious that glamour hired an outspoken, outrageously wealthy muslim woman to be their political blogger but ... there you have it) and I love the columns. she, like most wellesley women, was sad to see clinton just ... lose ( it was a downward spiral that really sucked to watch) but asma is also very much a pro-dem, which is great, and she is totally behind obama. she has a few books out, too, about being a muslim woman in america.
  • I'm definitely going to check that blog out.

    In semi-related news:
    Talk about rolling out the red carpet. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s much-hyped return to the Senate after dropping out of the presidential race included a crowd of adoring interns, a phalanx of Senate staff, hugs from Democratic colleagues and an ovation from a closed luncheon of Democratic senators.
  • That article was really good.

    Destructive lies shrouded in dishonest intellectual 'curiosity'.

    It's amazing how innocent those two hacks, Beckwith and Donna Shaw, purport themselves to be.
  • filmlover44 wrote: Great article about the origins of the "Obama is Muslim" emails.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/27/AR2008062703781.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2008062703939&pos=
    Shaw says she has done extensive online research about Obama but believes many of the initial sites that provided "proof" of his Muslim background have been removed from the Internet: "Everything about his Muslim background was readily available on the Web in 2004. But they were all cleared from the Internet before he ran for Senate."
    Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!

    The Internet Police took it _ALL_ down!!!!!!!
  • It's those damn Muslims! They beat her to it!
  • Perhaps it isn't so bad. Less people believe Obama is a Muslim than that the sun revolves around the earth.
    Eighteen percent of Americans think the sun revolves around the earth, one poll has found. Thus it seems slightly less egregious that, according to another poll, 10 percent of us think that Senator Barack Obama, a Christian, is instead a Muslim.
    Another snippet:
    Journalists and campaign workers may think they are acting to counter misinformation by pointing out that it is not true. But by repeating a false rumor, they may inadvertently make it stronger. In its concerted effort to “stop the smears,” the Obama campaign may want to keep this in mind. Rather than emphasize that Mr. Obama is not a Muslim, for instance, it may be more effective to stress that he embraced Christianity as a young man.
    NY Times - Your Brain Lies to You
  • I'd be willing to bet that the "Obama is a muslim" set is almost completely contained within the "Sun revolves around the Earth" set.
  • "I understand he's from Africa, and that the first thing he's going to do if he gets into office is bring his family over here, illegally. He's got that racist [pastor] who practically raised him, and then there's the Muslim thing. He's just not presidential material, if you ask me."
    From another interesting WaPo article on the various lies being spread about Obama.
  • Boygabriel wrote:
    "I understand he's from Africa, and that the first thing he's going to do if he gets into office is bring his family over here, illegally. He's got that racist [pastor] who practically raised him, and then there's the Muslim thing. He's just not presidential material, if you ask me."
    From another interesting WaPo article on the various lies being spread about Obama.
    I don't find it particularly surprising that these sort of things are being said:
    "Barack Obama, born in Africa, is a possibly gay Muslim racist who refuses to recite the Pledge of Allegiance."

    What I find surprising, is that despite being exposed to the truth:
    "Sen. Barack Obama, born in Hawaii, is a Christian family man with a track record of public service."

    That the following is the conclusion:
    "It's like you're hearing about two different men with nothing in common," Peterman said. "It makes it impossible to figure out what's true, or what you can believe."

    It is throw your hands up and give up because of BS someone said on the interweb? Sheesh.
  • Another sad, sad article that says so much about America.
    "Said Jeanette Collins, a 77-year-old who lives across the street: "All I know for sure about Obama is that we're not ready for him."
    I suspect that this is the truth.
  • McCain PWNED by General Wesley Clark: “I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”

  • Wow, I wish I could youtube. I've found some excerpts, but not the whole transcript yet. Suffice to say, that looks pretty fucked up from the guy that said:
    I live by a simple rule. If you wore the uniform, if you served your nation with honor, and especially if you fought and were wounded in battle, then you have earned the right to be treated with respect.

    That's why I am so outraged that the Republican party has systematically attacked the wartime service and patriotism of veterans who are running for office as Democrats. It is despicable -- the sign of a party more concerned about hanging onto power by any means possible than with giving veterans the respect they have earned.

    If there is one lesson we learned from the 2004 presidential race, it is that when the Republicans question your patriotism, you have to hit back -- hard.
    http://securingamerica.com/node/1731

    And since I have straw man on the mind right now, I'd like someone to post where McCain said that getting shot down in a fighter plane is a qualification to become president.

    :mrgreen:image
  • daver wrote: Wow, I wish I could youtube. I've found some excerpts, but not the whole transcript yet. Suffice to say, that looks pretty fucked up from the guy that said...
    I don't get it. There was nothing disrespectful in what Clark said recently.
  • Boygabriel wrote: [quote=daver]Wow, I wish I could youtube. I've found some excerpts, but not the whole transcript yet. Suffice to say, that looks pretty fucked up from the guy that said...
    I don't get it. There was nothing disrespectful in what Clark said recently.
    Er, what? Then why was it billed as "McCain PWNED by General Wesley Clark" ? You honestly can't see how "I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president," could be considered disrespectful? An attack on a service record? Go back and look at Wesley Clark's comments regarding attacks on service records, especially around 2004 when Kerry was running for President, including the one I posted above, and see if maybe you can figure a way that it just _might_ be construed as disrespectful, lol!
  • Boygabriel wrote: [quote=daver]Wow, I wish I could youtube. I've found some excerpts, but not the whole transcript yet. Suffice to say, that looks pretty fucked up from the guy that said...
    I don't get it. There was nothing disrespectful in what Clark said recently.
    P.S. Obama disagrees with you as well...
    At a news conference here Monday, McCain himself said of Clark's comment, "That kind of thing is unnecessary" and distracts from real pocketbook issues voters care about.

    About the same time, Obama told an audience in Independence, Mo., that McCain had "endured physical torment in service to our country" and "no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign, and that goes for supporters on both sides."
    Besides Obama's personal remarks disdaining criticism of McCain's military service, the campaign's spokesman, Bill Burton said, "Sen. Obama honors and respects Sen. McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by Sen. Clark."
    Obama disowns critique of McCain's military record
  • daver wrote: [quote=Boygabriel][quote=daver]Wow, I wish I could youtube. I've found some excerpts, but not the whole transcript yet. Suffice to say, that looks pretty fucked up from the guy that said...
    I don't get it. There was nothing disrespectful in what Clark said recently.
    Er, what? Then why was it billed as "McCain PWNED by General Wesley Clark" ? You honestly can't see how "I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president," could be considered disrespectful? An attack on a service record? Go back and look at Wesley Clark's comments regarding attacks on service records, especially around 2004 when Kerry was running for President, including the one I posted above, and see if maybe you can figure a way that it just _might_ be construed as disrespectful, lol!
    He was specifically responing to a comment by the interviewer. If you see it in context in the video, you'll understand. It's not disrespectful, it's just a fact.
  • daver wrote: [quote=Boygabriel]I don't get it. There was nothing disrespectful in what Clark said recently.
    Er, what? Then why was it billed as "McCain PWNED by General Wesley Clark" ?

    Just b/c McCain got called out on his presidential credentials doesn't inherently make it 'disrespectful'. Someone can disagree about what makes a good president w/o being disrespectful.
    daver wrote: You honestly can't see how "I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president," could be considered disrespectful? An attack on a service record?
    That was in no way an attack on a service record. It was a statement of fact about whether it's a reasonable qualification for being president.

    "McCain whines about that POW thing" or "McCain didn't really sacrifice for our country". THAT would be disrespecting his service.

    What Clark said was not disrespectful. Although I can see how McCain would try to paint it that way, instead of responding to the actual issue at hand.
    P.S. Obama disagrees with you as well...
    Give me a break. A politican's diplomatic rejection of a controversial non-story? Yeah, that's a real indictment of Clark's comments.
  • Boygabriel wrote: Just b/c McCain got called out on his presidential credentials doesn't inherently make it 'disrespectful'. Someone can disagree about what makes a good president w/o being disrespectful.
    A complete straw man argument. McCain _never_ stated that one had to be shot down in a fighter plane in order to be president. Clark is NOT disagreeing with him, he is disagreeing with his own straw man argument. *shrug*
    P.S. Obama disagrees with you as well...
    Give me a break. A politican's diplomatic rejection of a controversial non-story? Yeah, that's a real indictment of Clark's comments.
    Lol. The campaign rejects Clarks comments BY NAME. Using the word REJECT. Using the word CLARK. That still isn't good enough for you? Obviously if the words coming out of Obama's mouth and the official campaign statement can't convince you, I'd be wasting my time trying to _further_ agree with them. :mrgreen:
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