Gentrification of Prospect Heights
I am not much of a writer like most of you on this board, but I’d like to add my two cents to the discussion about how our neighborhood has changed. My question is: Will Vanderbilt and Washington avenues be the next 5th Avenue?
I’d guess within the next five years Prospect Heights will be fully gentrified. It’s inevitable. Gentrification is good for any neighborhood because it brings new people, investment and energy into an area – it gives the neighborhood life. The question is will we local residents be those investors, or will we allow outside investors to seize the opportunities that are literally lying at our feet?
When I think of gentrification, I look at other areas that have strove to reach where they are, like Park Slope. That neighborhood wasn’t always like it is today. There were streets where you wouldn’t even want to go. Specifically 5th Avenue between Flatbush Avenue and 9th Street. Ten to 15 years ago 5th Avenue had dozens of abandoned, rundown or burnt out buildings. There were candy stores and bodegas that were empty except for the people just hanging out. Today Fifth Avenue is almost unrecognizable. If you hadn’t been there, you’d never know. Today you see restaurants, bars and specialty shops with quality goods that are attracting people from across the city.
What is responsible for this rapid development? Investor confidence. The confidence of investors was not always there but it blossomed with the development of Metrotech in downtown Brooklyn in the late 1980s. That’s when things really began to change in Park Slope and to a lesser extent, Prospect Heights.
People saw the rapid development that was occurring, and envisioned it stretching from beyond downtown Brooklyn to Park Slope. That created an atmosphere of confidence in people’s minds. So investors came in and opened or expanded small businesses like restaurants, markets, art supply stores, medical offices, hardware stores - businesses that the community needs and uses every day and that have improved the neighborhood.
New residents are buying property because they know that this area is going to continue to improve and the value of their properties will increase.
I look at that growth and envision its effect on Vanderbilt and Washington Avenues. These are two of Brooklyn’s great streets with wide sidewalks with tremendous opportunities. I can see sidewalk cafes, bookstores, stationary stores, restaurants, specialty stores and art galleries that cater to both residents of the areas and visitors.
People will come here to dine and then wander around the neighborhood to see what else is here, like other stores, restaurants, coffee shops, the museum, park, garden – and the beautiful tree-lined streets and brownstones beyond the main avenues.
Many of the brownstones in Prospect Heights have undergone renovations that have improved the buildings and significantly increased their value – another result of gentrification and sign of confidence. This residential growth also brings more jobs businesses, services, people and life into our neighborhood.
How many of you on this board are willing to invest in Prospect Heights?
I’d guess within the next five years Prospect Heights will be fully gentrified. It’s inevitable. Gentrification is good for any neighborhood because it brings new people, investment and energy into an area – it gives the neighborhood life. The question is will we local residents be those investors, or will we allow outside investors to seize the opportunities that are literally lying at our feet?
When I think of gentrification, I look at other areas that have strove to reach where they are, like Park Slope. That neighborhood wasn’t always like it is today. There were streets where you wouldn’t even want to go. Specifically 5th Avenue between Flatbush Avenue and 9th Street. Ten to 15 years ago 5th Avenue had dozens of abandoned, rundown or burnt out buildings. There were candy stores and bodegas that were empty except for the people just hanging out. Today Fifth Avenue is almost unrecognizable. If you hadn’t been there, you’d never know. Today you see restaurants, bars and specialty shops with quality goods that are attracting people from across the city.
What is responsible for this rapid development? Investor confidence. The confidence of investors was not always there but it blossomed with the development of Metrotech in downtown Brooklyn in the late 1980s. That’s when things really began to change in Park Slope and to a lesser extent, Prospect Heights.
People saw the rapid development that was occurring, and envisioned it stretching from beyond downtown Brooklyn to Park Slope. That created an atmosphere of confidence in people’s minds. So investors came in and opened or expanded small businesses like restaurants, markets, art supply stores, medical offices, hardware stores - businesses that the community needs and uses every day and that have improved the neighborhood.
New residents are buying property because they know that this area is going to continue to improve and the value of their properties will increase.
I look at that growth and envision its effect on Vanderbilt and Washington Avenues. These are two of Brooklyn’s great streets with wide sidewalks with tremendous opportunities. I can see sidewalk cafes, bookstores, stationary stores, restaurants, specialty stores and art galleries that cater to both residents of the areas and visitors.
People will come here to dine and then wander around the neighborhood to see what else is here, like other stores, restaurants, coffee shops, the museum, park, garden – and the beautiful tree-lined streets and brownstones beyond the main avenues.
Many of the brownstones in Prospect Heights have undergone renovations that have improved the buildings and significantly increased their value – another result of gentrification and sign of confidence. This residential growth also brings more jobs businesses, services, people and life into our neighborhood.
How many of you on this board are willing to invest in Prospect Heights?
Comments
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Uhh, if I had a million-plus dollars to buy a brownstone, I'd invest in Prospect Heights. But a quick glance at my checkbook and--nope. I'm about 95 million pennies away from that possibility.
It's not a question of wanting to invest in PH. Sure we do. It's a question of having the money. Many of us are about a decade late on buying anything in PH. In five years, it's onto the next neighborhood. -
Will Vanderbilt and Washington avenues be the next 5th Avenue?
In what way?
There will be nice shops, etc, but it's not going to be the same. 5th Ave is more intimate. More foot-traffic friendly. More... quaint. Vanderbilt and Washington have a much different feel. I think that the next 5th Ave is going to be a little further east in CH.How many of you on this board are willing to invest in Prospect Heights?
Don't exactly know what you mean by this, either... I've bought in CH, just the other side of Washington, and I have ambitions to open a business or two in the area, but there's other ways to invest in a neighborhood. And why does your final query feel so... confrontational? -
nybt wrote:
My question was not meant to be confrontational, but just to invoke some responses.Will Vanderbilt and Washington avenues be the next 5th Avenue?
In what way?
There will be nice shops, etc, but it's not going to be the same. 5th Ave is more intimate. More foot-traffic friendly. More... quaint. Vanderbilt and Washington have a much different feel. I think that the next 5th Ave is going to be a little further east in CH.How many of you on this board are willing to invest in Prospect Heights?
Don't exactly know what you mean by this, either... I've bought in CH, just the other side of Washington, and I have ambitions to open a business or two in the area, but there's other ways to invest in a neighborhood. And why does your final query feel so... confrontational?
Washington and Vanderbilt Avenues certainly will not have the same intimate feel as 5th ave., but they can have the same vibrancy. One of the prove ways to create vibrancy in a neighborhood is to have an influx of new restaurants, bars and boutique shops -- businesses that pull people to the area. -
lovemynabe wrote: ...businesses that pull people to the area.
Regretfully, I don't see that happening... if it does, great, but I think that the more likely triumph is keeping people in the neighborhood. You don't need to pull people from the far corners of the boroughs, you just need to give them a reason not to leave their own neighborhood. Provide a legitimate alternative to a Manhattan night out or a Manhattan shopping trip (that one's a bit of a stretch). -
[quote=nybt]
There will be nice shops, etc, but it's not going to be the same. 5th Ave is more intimate. More foot-traffic friendly. More... quaint. Vanderbilt and Washington have a much different feel. I think that the next 5th Ave is going to be a little further east in CH.
Actually I thought Vanderbilt and Washington would get more foot traffic from the Park, Garden and Museums. I would think that adding some benches, more greenery, etc. would give those Avenues more of an "intimate" feel. -
stacey wrote: [quote=nybt]There will be nice shops, etc, but it's not going to be the same. 5th Ave is more intimate. More foot-traffic friendly. More... quaint. Vanderbilt and Washington have a much different feel. I think that the next 5th Ave is going to be a little further east in CH.
Actually I thought Vanderbilt and Washington would get more foot traffic from the Park, Garden and Museums. I would think that adding some benches, more greenery, etc. would give those Avenues more of an "intimate" feel.
I love the museum and I have a membership at the garden, but how many people do they bring to the neighborhood? Not asking a snarky question, I'd really be interested to know. It just doesn't seem like a huge draw to me... Also, I lived in the area and went to the garden/museum for 2 years before walking down Washington Ave... With some MAJOR cosmetic changes at Eastern, it might entice outsiders to the venture down the block...
And don't get me wrong! I WANT this area to thrive. I plan on opening... something in the area, but my goal is to capture business already there, not making it a destination for Manhattanites or tourists... I think that we're a long way from that, if ever. -
Cheers to you for buying, bro!
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nybt wrote: ..
I am far more optimistic that Prospect Heights will become a vibrant business district in the near future.
And don't get me wrong! I WANT this area to thrive. I plan on opening... something in the area, but my goal is to capture business already there, not making it a destination for Manhattanites or tourists... I think that we're a long way from that, if ever.
How can you expect the neighborhood to thrive witout outside spending. You do need Manhattanites or tourists to come in and spend. If you create a lively shopping strip on Washington Avenue, you will attract people from the museum. -
Subject: geography is destiny
More so on Wash than on Vandy, the size of the available retail space is a hindrance. It is very reminiscent of 5th Ave in this quality: small, narrow, deep spaces that require a great deal of commitment from the consumer to penetrate from the street front. Not enough square footage to either display merchandise or provide seating. Plus the hill actually cuts into windowshopping, believe it or not - can you think of any NYC shopping districts that have big height changes in them?
What the 5th Ave merchants have realized, to a great extent, is the importance of WINDOWS and SIGNAGE to override the space restrictions - almost NO merchants on Wash have caught on with eye popping signs that scream UNIQUE SHOPPING EXPERIENCE...and very few have windows that either give a taste of the experience inside OR allow the passerby to peer in and evaluate without committing to entrance (look at Calabar Imports or Cafe Shane to see how a store communicates).
Perhaps I should rephrase: some stores communicate very well through their use of windows and signs: I mean, how aptly do tattered awnings, mispellings, and filthy windows made impenetrable by out of-date, color-faded merchandise represent the in-store experience of many of Wash's shops? Quite well, I would say...
Some basic marketing skills would go a long way for the current businesses on Wash...but they seem oblivious of, or indifferent to, the influx of a different demographic: new to Bklyn if not NYC, young, (dare I say) hip, with some disposable income (some - not a lot, or they'd be spending it on rent in a more chi-chi nabe). These people are here, like the neighborhood, and want to spend their money AND time in it: on essentials (groceries, laundry, household supplies) and non-essentials alike (bookstores, bars, restauarants). They don't want to walk to the Slope, or hop a train to Atlantic Center or even (gasp) Manhattan - they want to recreate the street/home life you can get on ANY 3 block radius in Manhattan and brownstone Brooklyn: radial commercial avenues with essentials-purveyors every 2-3 blocks, non-essentials every 4-5 blocks; crossed with quiet residential blocks. The geography is here, it obviously worked 50 years ago, but the stores are not cooperating. The magnitude of this lost opportunity is staggering.
A smart merchant who could craftily overcome the space issues could open a storefront on Washington appealing expressly to these newbies and do a knock-out business. I don't know why no one has done it yet...and if I am forgetting someone I apologize...but we need 2 or 3 specialty stores to take gambles: come in with an amenable landlord, open snazzy stores (not necessarily 'hip' - but well-thought out in terms of clientele, design, and niche), market aggressively to the newbies in the nabe, and make a mark.
If they succeed (and I defy anyone to say that something as simple as a basic, unambitious bar/restaurant with average, non-ethnic (burgers and fries) food and comfy ambience around St. John's or Sterling wouldn't succeed tremendously), watch what will happen. Other merchants will capitalize (or cannibalize) on the traffic. (Landlords are the big question mark in this - they have been notoriously uninterested in Washington, apparently, and have an understandable tendency to prefer a tenat who pays higher rent to a tenant who has a better business model.) Deadwood will be cleared, either through business failure or through rent hikes, and space will be made for other businesses that will serve the new paradigm.
If this smacks of gentrification, I am sorry. But my point is that what we are witnessing is not displacement, to a great degree, but supplementation: Consider all the new housing units being built. Look at the new rentals on Classon, and all the new developments at the north end of Wash (Bergen, Dean, St. Marks). Look at the proposals not only at BAY, but in Crown Heights. And look at the low rise corridor along Atlantic east of Wash - you think, if BAY goes through, someone will snatch up the "Little Bowery" kitchen supply stores and make some big box retail or more housing? You betcha!
These new people need services to sustain their lives here. If done properly, the long-standing residents who patronize the current stores (they must exist) won't be pushed out to make room. If general affluence and cost of living in the nabe does rise, they may have to leave for THAT reason, but my hope is that with smart development (sorry for the oxymoron) we can keep Prospect Heights hospitable to those who grew up and still live here, and make it more hospitable to the new demographic.
Sorry for the essay.... -
dan.h wrote: Cheers to you for buying, bro!
You can stop by for a drink sometime! -
Subject: Re: geography is destiny
EasternPkwy wrote: Perhaps I should rephrase: some stores communicate very well through their use of windows and signs: I mean, how aptly do tattered awnings, mispellings, and filthy windows made impenetrable by out of-date, color-faded merchandise represent the in-store experience of many of Wash's shops? Quite well, I would say...
Very good point. Everybody complains about the big corporations invading the nabe, but they always do well... why? I feel that the higher standards of appearance and/or cleanliness is a huge factor. Corporations insist on a certain look. The strong branding helps, too. Look at Gorilla. Great product, so-so store/service, but they've built a brand. They look like they have their shit together. As Meatloaf says, two outta three ain't bad... -
Subject: Foot Traffic from PH "Anchors"
From what I could quickly find, the Botanic Garden gets about 650,000 visitors annually (17,000 members) and the Museum gets around 400,000 visitors (I couldn't find membership data). That's over a million people per year who come to these neighborhood anchors.
Unfortunately, I think most of them get right back on the bus, in their car or on the subway and head back home without talking a walk down Washington or elsewhere. The same goes for the weekend crowds at Tom's, although I see a lot of locals there. I've lived in Brooklyn for 10 years and have been a member of the Museum and Garden for most of that time. However, when I lived in Fort Greene and then Park Slope, I too never ventured far afield from these institutions (as well as Tom's), but headed straight home after enjoying what I saw, experienced or ate.
Now that I've literally bought into PH, I've got a much more vested interest in seeing it come along. I see storefronts that could be so much more -- What's going on with the old bodega space at Washington/St. John's? What could go in the vacant tattoo parlor space on Underhill near Sterling? I envision a produce stand, a good coffee shop (maybe even with magazines and newspapers for sale) or maybe even a place to buy flowers without having to hike to Flatbush. I saw these things crop up five years in Fort Greene and it's a glorious thing to support these changes with your wallet and by passing the word.
I give kudos to places like Cafe Shane, Ripple and the handful of newish shops on Washington that struggle to survive while only attracting minimal foot traffic across Eastern Parkway. Nothing much new seemed to open this past summer after Shane and Ripple in the spring the year before. So I've been wondering: what's the hold up? Money? Are people scared of a real estate bubble? If so, how do you explain all the "luxury" developments planned and dotted all over PH?
I want the neighborhood to get better, with more stuff for everyone. The five-year window may be possible, but I have a feeling it may take longer. -
Subject: Re: Foot Traffic from PH "Anchors"
sterling2000 wrote: From what I could quickly find, the Botanic Garden gets about 650,000 visitors annually (17,000 members) and the Museum gets around 400,000 visitors (I couldn't find membership data). That's over a million people per year who come to these neighborhood anchors.
Is that 650,00 and 400,00 unique visitors per year? Even if it is, it's still paltry considering how... nice the BBG and Museum are. -
I want to point out that many of the "outside investors" that have opened new stores in this neighborhood have been living here for years. Half, House Broken, Fermented Grapes, Aliseo, Cucina Rustica, Red Lipstick, and Delicacies have been opened by people who have lived in Prospect Heights for years.
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I am so glad someone posted about this. I just moved in to the area this year (Dean/Washington, across from the new luxury housing) and have been wondering what stage y'all thought the development/gentrification had reached and was likely to.
Vanderbilt, I think, is a good case study for Washington--my girlfriend first thought it was really, well, scary, the first time she came in. It was night-time, and I think the relative lack of lights, the relative sparseness of "nice" places and bars, and the little pedestrian traffic put her off. But, as we all know, it's a hopping place, at least by PH standards. I just found Fermented Grapes, to my delight, and frequent the bike shop and the bars, too, as much as my student income allows me to.
I think that greenery and streetlamps would go a long way to "fixing" the pedestrian problem. Washington and Vanderbilt have few trees and no garden or green spaces and feel really oppressively sunny during the day and dark at night. The stores look worse, I think, without the leafy coverings and the "worse" stores--the auto repair places, the dingy delis and bodegas--would be less visible with some leafy-ness.
And, to answer the question that sparked this whole topic, I WOULD definitely invest in the area. The problem, above all, is money. But I know that if I opened a nice shop on Washington, the Dailyheights would provide me with free advertising and good word-of-mouth.
Now that I think about it, that might be the difficulty: opening a store that meets the rigorous standards of this community.
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I think Fort Greene is nicer then Prospect Heights.
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I go back and forth trying to figure this one out. On one hand, there are many signs of gentrification in PH and CH - even in areas that I thought would never show a hint of gentrification, like Classon Avenue (when I first moved to NYC, the public school on Classon and St. Mark's was abandoned). And the thought of condo construction in the vicinity of Classon and Franklin never occurred to me. Still, parts of the neighborhood remain a bit rough and posts of crimes and police activity are common on this board. I guess that time will tell.
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Subject: insiders vs outsiders
There have been a few posts about how much the culture vultures who patronize BBG, BM, PP, BPL, etc. might enjoy the sights and sounds of Washington, Underhill, and Vandy: I would surmise that most visitors have a hermetically sealed experience, like sterling2000 suggests.
My wife and I often find ourselves chatting with visitors to the museum or garden who, when they find out we live in the neighborhood, ask us to refer a nice place to eat or drink. To our chagrin, we find ourselves able to offer only 3 realistic PH options - Tom's (if the time is right), Shane's, and Sepia - since all are within 'sight' distance of the institutions (probably the outer limit of tourist tolerance), and since the cafe at the gardens is SO DAMN GOOD! (really, some of the best food in PH). We want visitors to have a good impression of PH, but Vandy is too far, and Underhill and Wash still too ugly and off-putting...
In any case, all this is beside the point - we shouldn't rely on outside spending when the Insiders don't even shop here... -
Don't forget about recommending the Islands, equally within eyeball distance of the Brooklyn Museum. Everyone I've ever told to go there has fallen in love.
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muteflute wrote:
Money is never a problem.
And, to answer the question that sparked this whole topic, I WOULD definitely invest in the area. The problem, above all, is money. But I know that if I opened a nice shop on Washington, the Dailyheights would provide me with free advertising and good word-of-mouth.
Let me rephrase that- the biggest reason for failure is that the venture is underfunded (poor planning), but that being said, if you have a solid plan, enough desire and organization to put it on paper, and the commitment to follow through, you can always find the money. Lenders/investors look for people with the ability and willingness to repay their investment with interest. Show a solid plan and sell them on your vision to demonstrate your ability, decent credit shows your willingness.
Giddy-up. -
Oh, and in addition to all of the information that you can find online, we also have a great resource in the Brooklyn Public Library Business Library- downtown Brooklyn.
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Subject: Professional Apartment Painting
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Subject: Re: Professional Apartment Painting
Wall to Wall Painting wrote: Call Wall to Wall Painting to paint your apartment before the holidays.
This has nothing to do with this thread, at least post in the right forum. Take thee to THE CLASSIFIEDS. -
Subject: Re: Gentrification of Prospect Heights
lovemynabe wrote: Will Vanderbilt and Washington avenues be the next 5th Avenue?
i doubt it... on vanderbilt at least... the fast and furious traffic alone is sure to take care of the occasional stroller-pusher, so we'll probably be safe for a few yearrs yet :roll: -
maybe. maybe the heights will be completely gentrified in five years. maybe vanderbilt and washington will come to life.
all this bullishness is pleasantly diverting, but the reality is no one knows whether this trend will continue or not. the national debt--thanks to a misbegotten war and tax cuts for the wealthy--is higher than ever. the balance of trade and american jobs are all flowing to asia. energy prices, already beyond belief, are likely to continue to rise. and more to the point, the real estate market is in a bubble.
if the economy really takes a dive, a distinct possibility given the above conditions, the city will start to lose jobs, the neighborhood will lose people and income, prices and interest rates will soar, real estate prices will tumble, and a degentrification process will begin.
park slope already has sufficient investment that it could weather a short-term downturn. likewise, fifth avenue.
but has ph turned the corner far enough that it couldn't quickly sink back into what it was just a few years ago?
i don't think anyone knows the answer to that.
that scenario would certainly be in the back of my mind before i mortgaged my life on a new business here. on the other hand, your new restaurant could become the next al di la. -
There is currently an imbalance in certain parts of the neighborhood that will change as entrepreneurs recognize the potential. As soon as one or two open up shop and are successful, others will follow.
The area around Washington and Classon is ripe for this with lots of new housing available or soon to be available, i.e the Jewish Hospital, the washington, others, that is attracting a new demographic. It's only a matter of time before a coffee shop or two and a new bar or two open up.
Higher end restaurants akin to al di la are a bit riskier but not out of the question. I'd wager that it will take a little longer and will happen once the condo developments are completed and people with more cash move in.
I think the momentum of the neighborhood is such that new investment will happen, even if there is a downturn. A downturn could stall the process but it won't prevent it. Once there are a certain number of luxury units completed, there will be people with money living in them who will want a nice meal or cup of coffee. -
I hope thats the case... I'm tired of driving everywhere
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dan.h wrote: I hope thats the case... I'm tired of driving everywhere
Yeah shut it, at least you don't have to do battle with alternative side of the street parking! ;-) -
Subject: if anyone out there reading is thinking...
..."hmm, what small investment might get me a big return?" WE DESPERATELY NEED A COFFEE PLACE ON WASHINGTON UP CLOSE TO THE MUSEUM. really. dozens of caffeine deprived young hipsters trudging up the hill to the 2/3/4/5 need a place to fuel up.
and if it could be modeled on the tea lounge, then all of us parents of younguns wouldn't have to haul it over to the slope for our mommy groups. -
Subject: Re: if anyone out there reading is thinking...
lnclnplcgentrifier wrote: ..."hmm, what small investment might get me a big return?" WE DESPERATELY NEED A COFFEE PLACE ON WASHINGTON UP CLOSE TO THE MUSEUM. really. dozens of caffeine deprived young hipsters trudging up the hill to the 2/3/4/5 need a place to fuel up.
If there is a space available I'd be willing to team up with someone.
and if it could be modeled on the tea lounge, then all of us parents of younguns wouldn't have to haul it over to the slope for our mommy groups.
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