2008 Presidental Election: Obama v McCain

there's really nothing wrong with having changes in a plan - it's the reasons for the changes that are fair game for issue.

undoubtedly every politician panders somewhat. but i don't think that's the case with obama's positions on these matters. for one thing, notice that it's always characterized as a "shift" - it's not a total change, but a tempering. let's take the oil situation for instance. a lot of the talking heads have attempted to characterize obama's previous position as being completely against drilling, ever. in fact, what he said was that he saw no reason to drill at that time. i'd like to know exactly what it was that changed his mind, but it's hardly a flip-flop type issue.

as far as experience, it should be duly noted that no person running for president will be an expert on energy, foreign policy, executive power, leadership, domestic policy, diplomacy, the armed forces, etc., etc., etc. it is the job of the president to listen to the experts and distill the information delivered. while a shift in position may mean that he had not previously been exposed to certain information, it seems much more promising to me that someone is willing to listen to more information and shift their policy as opposed to absolute consternation in the face of criticism with the arrogance that their plan is the only plan and must be executed as is, even before they've had the opportunity to do the proper discovery of the issue - you can't convince me that EITHER candidate has had the ability to sit down with all of the necessary experts on ANY of their plans at the same time running campaigns every two to four years and while those experts ought to be sitting down with the current commander in chief. their plans are going to be, at the moment that the state them, what they believe to be the best presented to them. I would much rather a listener-analyzer type than an old coot of a rabble-rouser have that role.

Boygabriel wrote: For example, he didn't cave on Off Shore Drilling so much as accept it if its part of a broader more, progressive energy bill.

Ah.

A Reason.

He was wrong about the Surge. What does that say about his war abilities? He was right about the war in general, does that say even more?

You keep saying HE WAS RIGHT HE WAS RIGHT HE WAS RIGHT. Where is the backup to this claim?

Also instead of sticking by a mistake (a la Clinton & Iraq), he admitted the Surge worked.

Well, he actually erased all references to it from his policy statements and incorporated it into speeches as if his position and prediction had never changed...

What does that say?

Rather dead than red?

On a related note, what does it say that McCain is unwilling to discuss his decision to support the invasion based on lies and incompetence? (“it’s in the past, don’t be stuck in the past!”)

Also, when do we start calling out McCain for all his flip flops? He might be the only man in history who’s running for president while opposing two bills which bear his own name.

Calling out Obama without doing the same to McCain doesn't strike me as fair or accurate.

I'm down with discussing McCain flops or whatever as much as I am with the Obama ones.

he said that he was opposed to new drilling *after* the nomination was locked up as well. if you're going to make inferences about a candidate's motivations, you have to look at the whole timeline. I'm not going to say that it's 100% absolutely not triangulation, but it would be a much more convincing case if he hadn't repeated the stance after he'd already locked up the nomination.

I'd have to see a source before I can contest anything about releasing oil from the reserve. Last I'd heard, he was not for it.

deathscythe257 wrote: he said that he was opposed to new drilling *after* the nomination was locked up as well. if you're going to make inferences about a candidate's motivations, you have to look at the whole timeline. I'm not going to say that it's 100% absolutely not triangulation, but it would be a much more convincing case if he hadn't repeated the stance after he'd already locked up the nomination.

Looking at the timeline, when it was advantageous to him to change the stance, he did. *shrug* Such is political life in America.

I'd have to see a source before I can contest anything about releasing oil from the reserve. Last I'd heard, he was not for it.

Obama called this week for easing fuel prices by releasing some 70 million barrels of light, sweet crude from the nation's stockpile and swapping it for less expensive heavy, sour oil.

Reuters - Obama oil plan may weaken emergency stockpile

Mr. Obama proposed that the government sell 70 million barrels of oil from its stockpiles and said that releases from the reserve in the past have lowered gas prices within two weeks.

Explaining his thinking, campaign energy adviser Heather Zichal said that Mr. Obama "recognizes that Americans are suffering."

AP - Obama, in shift, proposes tapping oil reserves

Boygabriel wrote: [quote=daver]Well, he actually erased all references to it from his policy statements and incorporated it into speeches as if his position and prediction had never changed...

Is this better or worse than McCain's refusal to talk about (1) being duped into Iraq or (2) not caring that everything turned out to be false?

I'm down with discussing McCain flops or whatever as much as I am with the Obama ones.

well, when you say things like, "Which leads me to wonder how important the details are when then are mutable" you should probably qualify that by saying, "but McCain's flopped more, therefore..."
I'm all on board with, Hey, They Both Suck. I'm not particularly fond of answering charges about Obama with, "Hey! But look what McCain did!" Schoolyard politics? I guess that is all we got these days.

deathscythe257 wrote: that's all we've ever had.

/me stamps foot.

What about "NEW POLITICS" !?!?!?!

What about "CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN" ?!?!?!?

:twisted:

I understand the first point/paragraph, and I understand the second in theory, but not in how it applies to the Obama platform specifically.

And I want Firefox to know how to spell Obama, so I need to look up how the dictionary works. I guess.

daver wrote: I understand the second in theory, but not in how it applies to the Obama platform specifically.

simple: it doesn't, really. i mean, his campaign is essentially bifurcated. there's his platform, which include his policies and ideas, and then there's his campaign about getting americans to rally around causes (right now, it's focused on winning the campaign, but what happens when he gets everyone to rally around using less energy (or at least using it more efficiently) or volunteering to more community services, etc., etc.)

i guess you could move it into a discussion of motivation and leadership, however. at this point i don't see it as having done that much other than getting people invested in the campaign (which in and of itself i think is admirable in american politics), but he also doesn't have the helm of the country as of yet. but it has shown his ability to get people to rally, which is necessary in affecting any policy changes. take any of the debated issues at hand in this campaign, and it's obvious that national policy only gets us so far when we start talking about profit windfalls, subsidies or fines, etc. the rest of the work has to be done by the market, and it takes convincing the overwhelming majority of the public to be behind something. for instance, credit debt... you're going to have to not only figure out a better scheme for corporate financing of debt and regulations surrounding that, but you also have to convince the public that spending beyond their means outside of an education investment or absolute necessity is detrimental in the long run to the individual.

beaucoup polls, all in one place
http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/general-election/electoral-college-results.html

MoveOn has a video (essentially a powerpoint presentation with voice over) on polls, smears, etc (EDIT: o dur, that's what you're talking about - they quote the Gallup daily tracking numbers and claim all the other polls are more or less the same)
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=4053&id=13483-9304248-Ph2s0ex&t=2

and I have the Obamabamalam song stuck in my head for two days (see above YouTube embed)