Bike safety in PS- (split thread)
MOD NOTE: I've split the discussion of general bike safety from the thread about the death of a biker yesterday. Please feel free to continue the general discussion here. Thanks.
I've said it before. Biking in NYC is not smart. Sorry, but it's a fact. Too many people.. too many cars, trucks, taxi cabs. There is no room and it's hazardous for everyone. Bike riders hardly ever follow the rules of the road putting everyone at risk. You have to be nuts to ride a bike.
I've said it before. Biking in NYC is not smart. Sorry, but it's a fact. Too many people.. too many cars, trucks, taxi cabs. There is no room and it's hazardous for everyone. Bike riders hardly ever follow the rules of the road putting everyone at risk. You have to be nuts to ride a bike.
Comments
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eggcream wrote: I've said it before. Biking in NYC is not smart. Sorry, but it's a fact. Too many people.. too many cars, trucks, taxi cabs. There is no room and it's hazardous for everyone. Bike riders hardly ever follow the rules of the road putting everyone at risk. You have to be nuts to ride a bike.
I'm sorry you have such a negative attitude about it. What a shame. Same could be said for walking across the street here.
I wouldn't give up biking for anything. -
eggcream wrote: I've said it before. Biking in NYC is not smart. Sorry, but it's a fact. Too many people.. too many cars, trucks, taxi cabs. There is no room and it's hazardous for everyone. Bike riders hardly ever follow the rules of the road putting everyone at risk. You have to be nuts to ride a bike.
You're crazy, biking in NYC is great. The city is built up, not out, making biking a great alternative to sitting in traffic spewing fumes into the air. Additionally, the lack of wide fast moving roads is a boon to cyclists because speed differentials are _much_ lower, making cycling that much safer. -
daver wrote:
Very true. Its much more dangerous when the cars are speeding along at suburb speeds. I pass a heck of a lot of cars on my bike as they sit, going nowhere.
You're crazy, biking in NYC is great. The city is built up, not out, making biking a great alternative to sitting in traffic spewing fumes into the air. Additionally, the lack of wide fast moving roads is a boon to cyclists because speed differentials are _much_ lower, making cycling that much safer. -
caaahyoko wrote: Very true. Its much more dangerous when the cars are speeding along at suburb speeds. I pass a heck of a lot of cars on my bike as they sit, going nowhere.
Yeah, I experience the same thing. I'm not an incredibly fast rider, I probably plod along at maybe 15MPH or so. In NYC this is not an issue unless you are on Eastern of Atlantic, and there are plenty of smaller through streets to be on. When I rode in Phoenix, there were NOT through streets, and the speed limit was 45MPH, with cars generally running 50-55MPH on the regular streets. Now _that_ was taking my life in my hands and I gave up actually riding to work rather quickly. -
When I ride my bike, I always, always wear a helmet, with the chin strap fastened. I don't care if I look like a dork. I took a tumble in Central Park once and banged my head, helmet protected me from any injury. As soon as I got home, the helmet was thrown down the garbage chute and a new one purchased - they can only stand one whack. In Brooklyn there are lots of cycle lanes that run parallel to the main traffic arteries, these are the places to cycle, not on Atlantic Avenue. In Manhattan, it is especially tricky, but depending on how far up or down town you are going, it's often a lot quicker to cycle over to the Hudson and use the off-road cycleway that runs from Battery Park to the George Washington Bridge to get a non-stop ride up/down town. It is certainly a lot safer.
Oh, and obeying the road rules helps a lot. Not that motorists will cop you any slack for that. I was riding in Manhattan, in the right hand lane, stopped at a red, the bus behind me decides he can turn left before I go straight ahead. Good thing I'm a defensive rider. -
I am terrified of riding in the street - not only because of the cars, but the pedestrians as well...I do obey traffic lights, and I find that pedestrians walk against the light right in front of me as if a bike can do no damage. And I'm constantly seeing cars parked in the bike lane which means that I have to go around them.
I just ride the Park and Ocean Parkway, and getting there is always scary for me...and yes, I do wear a helmet.
But, regardless of who was "at fault" here, it is so sad -
RockerGirl77 wrote:
This is the most common thing I have to watch for with the cars. Unfortunately, you have to assume that, when you approach an intersection, any car just in front of you will perform this maneuver. My two strategies are, a) try to make eye contact with the driver, so they know that you are there or b) try to pass the car before you get to the intersection AND make eye contact so that you know they see you.
The other day he was going North in the bike lane on 5th Ave and a truck took a hard right right in front of him, causing him to have to make a sudden turn into a parking lot alongside the truck.
It is very rare that a driver who SEES you will purposefully run you down. Its a very important skill to know how to turn your head to glance behind you regularly while riding. Human faces register in drivers consciousness much more readily than the back of a plastic helmet. When they see me turn my head and look back I often see them immediately back off and give me space.
Oh and signal with your hands. Not enough people do this. It also makes you more visible. -
I ride daily to work from PS to Greenpoint and I have to say that Park Slope is probably one of the worst neighborhoods in Brooklyn for bikes. I feel very unsafe when going thru PS......7th Avenue always seems to be full of angry drivers and the bike lane on 5th Avenue is used as a parking lot. Something should be done to those who park on bike lanes and more bike lanes should be added, especially on 8th Ave and PPW......
This is sad news for the neighborhood. -
caaahyoko wrote: [quote=RockerGirl77]
This is the most common thing I have to watch for with the cars. Unfortunately, you have to assume that, when you approach an intersection, any car just in front of you will perform this maneuver. My two strategies are, a) try to make eye contact with the driver, so they know that you are there or b) try to pass the car before you get to the intersection AND make eye contact so that you know they see you.
The other day he was going North in the bike lane on 5th Ave and a truck took a hard right right in front of him, causing him to have to make a sudden turn into a parking lot alongside the truck.
It is very rare that a driver who SEES you will purposefully run you down. Its a very important skill to know how to turn your head to glance behind you regularly while riding. Human faces register in drivers consciousness much more readily than the back of a plastic helmet. When they see me turn my head and look back I often see them immediately back off and give me space.
Oh and signal with your hands. Not enough people do this. It also makes you more visible.
Actually, I've read that it is SAFER to not make eye contact with the driver... apparently not making eye contact makes your movements seem more erratic to the driver and they give you wider berth. Of course, New York drivers are a special breed. -
Good tips, caaahyoko
Yeah, I used to use hand signals, feel dorky cuz no one else ever does. Will def start doing it again. Drivers seem to appreciate the advanced notice, and I get pissed when they don't signal..... -
caaahyoko wrote: Oh and signal with your hands. Not enough people do this. It also makes you more visible.
Yah, I actually see people signaling with their hands _all_ the time.
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jh wrote: Good tips, caaahyoko
I always use hand signals on my bike and when I ride my boss' scooter for errands and people look at me like I'm crazy. Like they think I'm trying to wave at them or something - it's kind of funny. "Funny" in that "deadly consequences" kind of way.
Yeah, I used to use hand signals, feel dorky cuz no one else ever does. Will def start doing it again. Drivers seem to appreciate the advanced notice, and I get pissed when they don't signal..... -
8thandPrez wrote: Actually, I've read that it is SAFER to not make eye contact with the driver... apparently not making eye contact makes your movements seem more erratic to the driver and they give you wider berth.
I have _never_ heard that, and could easily point you to a dozen resources stating that making eye contact with drivers is essential in riding a bike in traffic. FWIW.
But you can do it your way too!
I hear that works with muggers as well, BTW.
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daver wrote: [quote=8thandPrez]Actually, I've read that it is SAFER to not make eye contact with the driver... apparently not making eye contact makes your movements seem more erratic to the driver and they give you wider berth.
I have _never_ heard that, and could easily point you to a dozen resources stating that making eye contact with drivers is essential in riding a bike in traffic. FWIW.
But you can do it your way too!
I hear that works with muggers as well, BTW.
It's actually research quoted in this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217793769&sr=8-1
I agree that, at first blush, it seems counterintuitive. As a pedestrian, I always stare down drivers as I cross the street. But who would have thought that woonerfs would work? Sometimes the counterintuitive is correct. -
[quote="drummachines"]I ride daily to work from PS to Greenpoint and I have to say that Park Slope is probably one of the worst neighborhoods in Brooklyn for bikes. I feel very unsafe when going thru PS......7th Avenue always seems to be full of angry drivers and the bike lane on 5th Avenue is used as a parking lot. Something should be done to those who park on bike lanes and more bike lanes should be added, especially on 8th Ave and PPW......
AGREED! IF PARK SLOPE HAD SAFE, VISIBLE, INTENDED BIKE LANES, THERE WOULDN'T BE SO MANY ACCIDENTS! It's ironic to hear how "great for the city" it is to ride a bike, only to then be confronted with an unfathonable mish mash of dangerous, barely visible bike lanes.
WHEN WILL NYC BECOME A REAL CITY AND MAKE BIKES A FIRST PRIORITY?!! :twisted: -
That book is already on my list, but it is like brand NEW and I haven't read it yet. A quote from the author at the site you linked seems to contradict your point, though.
Tom Vanderbilt wrote: Eye contact is a fundamental human signal — all kinds of studies have shown, for example, how people are more likely to cooperate with one another when they can make eye contact. When we don’t have it, when we become anonymous, we not only lose some of that impulse towards cooperation, we seem to become susceptible to all kinds of behavior we might not otherwise engage in. In most driving situations, of course, we lose eye contact, and have to make do with our rather limited vocabulary of traffic signals. At much slower speeds, however, like those seen in the experimental roundabouts in the Netherlands were most signage has been stripped away, it is fascinating to see how intricately all the traffic can interweave — exactly because some of those human signals have been restored.
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The Chipster wrote: WHEN WILL NYC BECOME A REAL CITY AND MAKE BIKES A FIRST PRIORITY?!! :twisted:
When Pinocchio becomes a real boy? -
daver wrote: [quote=The Chipster]WHEN WILL NYC BECOME A REAL CITY AND MAKE BIKES A FIRST PRIORITY?!! :twisted:
When Pinocchio becomes a real boy?
Which will be after Bloomberg jams through a revision on term limits. -
daver wrote: That book is already on my list, but it is like brand NEW and I haven't read it yet. A quote from the author at the site you linked seems to contradict your point, though.
That book sounds interesting. I definitely think our driving/riding habits are tied in to our cultural idiom big time. I'll try to pick that book up--or at least read it while standing at Barnes and Noble. 8) -
jh wrote: Good tips, caaahyoko
Thanks! Just stuff I've noticed in my daily commute.
Yeah, I used to use hand signals, feel dorky cuz no one else ever does. Will def start doing it again. Drivers seem to appreciate the advanced notice, and I get pissed when they don't signal.....
Don't feel silly! Just wear cool gloves and then you'll be showing off your hot style and also keeping yourself a little safer.
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I live on 9th Street and when there were hearings about the Bike Lanes on 9th Street I went and gave my point of view.NO! This terrible accident has nothing to do with bike lanes but it has to do with a City who has no interest in people who ride bikes. Why would there even be a consideration of a bike lane on 9th street where the lane itself puts people in danger because motorists do what they want on this busy street?
This thread has meandered in to a discussion about safety and biking because the reality is that considering those who use their bikes in NYC is not a prime consideration of this City.
This terrible news about the accident this morning can be called "random" and on some level it is but if one tiny little grain of good comes out of it... it is that people at least in our little community here are talking about what it is like to decide to use your bike in this neighborhood. -
8thandPrez wrote: I've found the ambulette drivers to be the absolute worst. I've always wondered if they're not required to have the same training as bus drivers.
I agree, the Access-a-ride folks are definitely asses. -
I agree about the bike lane on 9th street. Totally unsafe. Always delivery trucks there.
If they had done it the right way, with barricades, and no parking on one side of the street.
The bike lanes on 2nd and 3rd are great (when the motorists aren't missusing them)
And the Avenues, forget it. 5th has a poorly marked lane that is good for nothing really.
Maybe one of the lesser used avenues like 6th should have only 1 lane of car traffic and a two way bike lane, no? -
jh wrote:
Actually, that's a freakin' good idea. It would be traffic calming too, I would think.
Maybe one of the lesser used avenues like 6th should have only 1 lane of car traffic and a two way bike lane, no? -
Did you see the other story? He let his 8 year old ride by himself in that dangerous area.
Eight-year-old Alexander Toulouse, out for a bike ride with his dad Saturday afternoon, was struck and killed by a mail truck at the corner of Boerum Place (Adams Street) and Livingston Street -- one of several intersections in Downtown Brooklyn with over-the-top pedestrian accident rates.
Alexander, a third-grader at P.S. 29 in Cobble Hill, was following his father as the pair rode north on Boerum Place/Adams Street in the direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. According to published reports, Alexander was just a few feet behind his father when the Postal Service truck hit him while turning west onto Livingston Street. -
My bf and I were riding on our way back from an appointment - on 6th Avenue. A car came roaring past and strafed us, motor gunning - it was clear that he was doing it on purpose. My bf gave the universal hand signal for "I'm pissed that you just tried to kill me and my girlfriend", which was also demonstrated in a prior post above. The car stopped, BACKED UP, and the guy started screaming at us.
"YOU WANNA MAKE SOMETHING OF IT? YOU WANNA -"
The woman in the car with him was trying to calm him down, but he was having none of it.
"YOU WANT ME TO GET OUT OF THE CAR? YOU WANNA START SOMETHING?"
All this happened on the intersection of 6th Ave and 11th Street. My bf and I turned up the street - it was getting clear to us that this guy (a) was a nutjob and (b) quite possibly was armed, and at the very least was determiend to cause a lot of damage.
It took me quite a while (and several beers) to stop shaking.
Some people really hate bikers, even when they're minding the lights and doing everything they're supposed to do. -
bohuma wrote: When I ride my bike, I always, always wear a helmet, with the chin strap fastened. I don't care if I look like a dork. I took a tumble in Central Park once and banged my head, helmet protected me from any injury. As soon as I got home, the helmet was thrown down the garbage chute and a new one purchased - they can only stand one whack...Oh, and obeying the road rules helps a lot.
Agreed! On top of wearing my Hirogen like helmet I turn on my front and rear LED's as well. I figure if vehicles 10X and bigger use daylight running lights to be noticed (and if I'm correct those with daytime running lights have fewer accidents) I might as well be seen by vehicle and pedestrian alike. -
First of all, my deepest condolences to the family. This must be horrible for them.
With regard to the question of bike lanes I've always wondered if the right solution wasn't to mandate the use of bike lanes for bikers. In other words, if there is a bike lane on 5th Avenue and one on say 6th Avenue, make it illegal for a biker to use 4th, 7th, or 8th Avenues and keep those streets for cars only. You ticket cars driving in or blocking bike lanes and ticket bikers for not using bike lanes and all of a sudden bike lanes and bikers might be safer.
The reasoning? Well, part of the problem with bike lanes is they are often empty which causes drivers to ignore them. Mandating their use puts many more bikers in the lanes, makes it impossible to ignore them, and brings the concept of safety in numbers. Drivers can then chose to drive on a bike free block or share the road with bikers, but they are clear that bikers are there. -
homeowner wrote: First of all, my deepest condolences to the family. This must be horrible for them.
The problem with this is that it still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of awareness. It won't make bikers anymore aware of how to drive safely on the road, and it also won't make cars any more aware of how to share the road with bikers. It would just encourage people, if they even followed the law, to ride on the sidewalks on the prohibited streets. As we know from the low number of tickets we see issued to cars parked in bike lanes, or to bikes running red lights, these types of rules are largely ignored and rarely enforced.
With regard to the question of bike lanes I've always wondered if the right solution wasn't to mandate the use of bike lanes for bikers. In other words, if there is a bike lane on 5th Avenue and one on say 6th Avenue, make it illegal for a biker to use 4th, 7th, or 8th Avenues and keep those streets for cars only. You ticket cars driving in or blocking bike lanes and ticket bikers for not using bike lanes and all of a sudden bike lanes and bikers might be safer.
The reasoning? Well, part of the problem with bike lanes is they are often empty which causes drivers to ignore them. Mandating their use puts many more bikers in the lanes, makes it impossible to ignore them, and brings the concept of safety in numbers. Drivers can then chose to drive on a bike free block or share the road with bikers, but they are clear that bikers are there.
Its a question of mindset and cultural norms. Obviously, what ljnd experienced was on the extreme end, but there is a stigma attached to bike riders on streets. Wouldn't it be more worth our time and energy to try to change how everyone thinks about biking--that bikers aren't all reckless and in the way--instead of just creating more laws? -
daver wrote: That book is already on my list, but it is like brand NEW and I haven't read it yet. A quote from the author at the site you linked seems to contradict your point, though.
Ok, so maybe I needed a second read of that section. What it says is that bicyclists who clearly signal their intentions with hand signals, etc are more likely to be involved in collisions, whereas those who make eye contact are less likely to be involved in a collision. The book goes on to cite other research later regarding the significant distraction posed when drivers see bicyclists faces... apparently humans are incapable of ignoring faces and their eyes leave the road.
[quote=Tom Vanderbilt]Eye contact is a fundamental human signal — all kinds of studies have shown, for example, how people are more likely to cooperate with one another when they can make eye contact. When we don’t have it, when we become anonymous, we not only lose some of that impulse towards cooperation, we seem to become susceptible to all kinds of behavior we might not otherwise engage in. In most driving situations, of course, we lose eye contact, and have to make do with our rather limited vocabulary of traffic signals. At much slower speeds, however, like those seen in the experimental roundabouts in the Netherlands were most signage has been stripped away, it is fascinating to see how intricately all the traffic can interweave — exactly because some of those human signals have been restored.
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