Bike safety in PS- (split thread)
Comments
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WTF is it with English comprehension skills this morning? Did someone drop something in the water?
eggcream wrote: Did you see the other story? He let his 8 year old ride by himself in that dangerous area.
Eight-year-old Alexander Toulouse, out for a bike ride with his dad Saturday afternoon, was struck and killed by a mail truck at the corner of Boerum Place (Adams Street) and Livingston Street -- one of several intersections in Downtown Brooklyn with over-the-top pedestrian accident rates.
Alexander, a third-grader at P.S. 29 in Cobble Hill, was following his father as the pair rode north on Boerum Place/Adams Street in the direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. According to published reports, Alexander was just a few feet behind his father when the Postal Service truck hit him while turning west onto Livingston Street. -
veets wrote: I live on 9th Street and when there were hearings about the Bike Lanes on 9th Street I went and gave my point of view.NO! This terrible accident has nothing to do with bike lanes but it has to do with a City who has no interest in people who ride bikes. Why would there even be a consideration of a bike lane on 9th street where the lane itself puts people in danger because motorists do what they want on this busy street?
I agree absolutely! Bike lanes mostly give cyclists a false sense of security. It puts you in the ideal zone to get doored, and it gives the cars to the left of you the idea that they have PLENTY of room to pass you. Plus the bike lanes are usually full of glass, potholes, taxis, and idling Fresh Direct trucks. The only way bike lanes will really work is to design them like the one on 9th Ave in Manhattan - physically separated from cars.
When I ride in PS, I ride on 4th Avenue unless it's the height of rush hour. It's wide enough that I can take a lane - and I do take the WHOLE lane. Otherwise I find that Sixth Avenue is OK, so residential that there's usually not that much car traffic. -
I agree completely on bike lanes being dangerous the way they are now. It's a nice thought - but it's not really helping that much. Not to mention people getting doored - which could easily toss someone into oncoming traffic and kill them as well (or just break their arm, collarbone, neck, etc). I think the only truly safe way to do a bike lane is to have it completely separated from traffic with a barrier or wall or at least a median - otherwise it's just a glorified and somewhat dangerous parking lane for delivery trucks et al.
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He was on a bike BY HIMSELF following BEHIND his father. As is the case there was NOTHING his father could have done to save him. Get it now.
daver wrote: WTF is it with English comprehension skills this morning? Did someone drop something in the water?
[quote=eggcream]Did you see the other story? He let his 8 year old ride by himself in that dangerous area.
Eight-year-old Alexander Toulouse, out for a bike ride with his dad Saturday afternoon, was struck and killed by a mail truck at the corner of Boerum Place (Adams Street) and Livingston Street -- one of several intersections in Downtown Brooklyn with over-the-top pedestrian accident rates.
Alexander, a third-grader at P.S. 29 in Cobble Hill, was following his father as the pair rode north on Boerum Place/Adams Street in the direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. According to published reports, Alexander was just a few feet behind his father when the Postal Service truck hit him while turning west onto Livingston Street. -
To dave and eggcream (and others):
This post really needs to be locked... you two are actually arguing about the details of how an 8 year old was killed. Details, I may add, which are not not fact, but merely the reporting of whatever news outlet you happen to have pulled that from..
Are you kidding me? Have you nothing better to do? -
Two points: I think DOT uses bike lanes for traffic calming purposes. Take Ashland Pl/Navy St. That street is used by cars trying to skirt the traffic on Flatbush during the morning rush, but several years ago DOT painted bike lanes changing an informal 4 lane to a wide 2 lane. The only thing this has accomplished is making bike riders particularly vulnerable to cars sweeping into the bike lane because of all the extra room. It's not fair but as a car driver and bike rider I know the feeling of annoyance that overcomes a driver trying to obey the law seeing car after car sweeping by you in those particularly wide bike lanes. The other point, and I'm not proud to admit this but given the anarchy of driving in very crowded parts of NYC, there is a "deadly choreography" that occurs driving down a very busy street. Pedestrians jaywalking, car doors opening, bikes on both sides of the street. If you are "on" your game you "see" your opening and you go for it. The problem is of course, one misstep by one participant can throw the whole thing off with deadly consequences. I don't consider myself an unsafe driver but I'm sure there are a lot of drivers out there who are "threading that needle" all day long.
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No one wants to see anyone, biker or otherwise get hurt. But as a pedestrian I have nearly been mowed down countless times by bikers who ignore traffic lights (then yell at you for being in their way) or just as bad, will ride the wrong way down the street or take their bike up onto the sidewalk-all of which are illegal. I definitely support a person's right to ride their bike and I am happy to see dedicated bike lanes, but PLEASE be careful of pedestrians and obey the traffic laws if you bike. We all need to look out for each other in such a crowded and hectic city.
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Mamacita wrote: [quote=veets][quote=young & modern]veets doesn't even HAVE an avatar, I think that says alot right there.
What does THAT say?
Just curious.
Maybe it says that you don't like to offend people
Staying on topic, you know the reason this thread was started, I feel horrible for this poor man and his family. My heart goes out to them.
I agree completely Mamacita and I am beginning to agree that this thread should just be locked and a thread that is a simple memorial to this man that was killed should be set up instead. that seems like the embracing, community thing to do.
And I apologize because I think my innocent comment about bike lanes helped to derail the thread to begin with.
And I apologize for not having an avatar... but I can't seem to set one up... and that is the only reason I don't have one... computer ignorance. -
No, I totally don't get it. And I'm not trying to cause any trouble. What is your point? The kid was on his bike two feet behind his dad. Are you saying that kids shouldn't be riding bikes? Or that the dad should have been riding him on his handlebars? I don't get it. I would think that riding two up on a bike would be worse than each of them having their own, of course he was on his bike by himself. Hmm. I must be missing something. When I ride with my eight year old, I do the same thing. I either position him directly in front of me or directly behind me, so that I can easy speak with him and direct him if he needs directing.
eggcream wrote: He was on a bike BY HIMSELF following BEHIND his father. As is the case there was NOTHING his father could have done to save him. Get it now.
[quote=daver]WTF is it with English comprehension skills this morning? Did someone drop something in the water?
[quote=eggcream]Did you see the other story? He let his 8 year old ride by himself in that dangerous area.
Eight-year-old Alexander Toulouse, out for a bike ride with his dad Saturday afternoon, was struck and killed by a mail truck at the corner of Boerum Place (Adams Street) and Livingston Street -- one of several intersections in Downtown Brooklyn with over-the-top pedestrian accident rates.
Alexander, a third-grader at P.S. 29 in Cobble Hill, was following his father as the pair rode north on Boerum Place/Adams Street in the direction of the Brooklyn Bridge. According to published reports, Alexander was just a few feet behind his father when the Postal Service truck hit him while turning west onto Livingston Street. -
veets wrote: And I apologize for not having an avatar... but I can't seem to set one up... and that is the only reason I don't have one... computer ignorance.
Avatars are overrated. They just get you trouble anyhow. -
Subject: Re: Bike safety in PS- (split thread)
eggcream wrote: I've said it before. Biking in NYC is not smart. Sorry, but it's a fact. Too many people.. too many cars, trucks, taxi cabs. There is no room and it's hazardous for everyone. Bike riders hardly ever follow the rules of the road putting everyone at risk. You have to be nuts to ride a bike.
There's room for everyone to own, drive & park their own 1000 lb vehicle, but not for bicyclists? give me a break.
Of all the challenges facing this city, of all the quality of life issues to deal with, bikes & cars sharing the road is extremely doable.
Bikers make life moderately more challenging for drivers, but the presumption that car driving trumps all is false on its face. -
I have to say, that bikers are annoying the crud out of me lately! what is the point of bike lanes when they aren't used? i see people riding their bikes on the sidewalk of my block all the time ! And, no, the bike lane is not blocked-they are just riding the sidewalk.
I see it on 5th Avenue constantly also-just yesterday as a matter of fact, 2 women both riding down the sidewalk on opposite sides of 5th Avenue.
But, i guess the biggest thing that annoys me is how bikers do not stop at red lights. Aren't bike riders supposed to obey the rules of the road also? i constantly see people just zipping right through a red light. Sorry, if bike riders want to share the road with cars, then they should obey the rules of the road just the way cars have to. It is dangerous for them and for the pedestrians. -
Bikers are nothing more than pedestrians on wheels and pedestrians in NYC never obey the law. Honestly whenever I'm in some small town outside of the NY area I have to look around to see what the locals are doing regarding jaywalking and whatnot.
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magic1 wrote: [quote=veets]I live on 9th Street and when there were hearings about the Bike Lanes on 9th Street I went and gave my point of view.NO! This terrible accident has nothing to do with bike lanes but it has to do with a City who has no interest in people who ride bikes. Why would there even be a consideration of a bike lane on 9th street where the lane itself puts people in danger because motorists do what they want on this busy street?
I agree absolutely! Bike lanes mostly give cyclists a false sense of security. It puts you in the ideal zone to get doored, and it gives the cars to the left of you the idea that they have PLENTY of room to pass you. Plus the bike lanes are usually full of glass, potholes, taxis, and idling Fresh Direct trucks. The only way bike lanes will really work is to design them like the one on 9th Ave in Manhattan - physically separated from cars.
When I ride in PS, I ride on 4th Avenue unless it's the height of rush hour. It's wide enough that I can take a lane - and I do take the WHOLE lane. Otherwise I find that Sixth Avenue is OK, so residential that there's usually not that much car traffic.
I agree. Bike lanes only make us think that we are safe.
There are the drivers who think of bike lanes as their own private driving/parking lane. God help you if you happen to be in their blind spot. -
LongTimeSloper wrote:
Well, yeah, bike riders are supposed to obey the rules of the road, just like pedestrians are. I'm curious. Do you stop at red lights when you are walking?
But, i guess the biggest thing that annoys me is how bikers do not stop at red lights. Aren't bike riders supposed to obey the rules of the road also? i constantly see people just zipping right through a red light. Sorry, if bike riders want to share the road with cars, then they should obey the rules of the road just the way cars have to. It is dangerous for them and for the pedestrians. -
^ Yes, i only cross the street when the signal says I should. I usually have children with me and I want them to learn to cross the street safely. i also stop at red lights when driving.
So, back to topic, how come bikers don;'t stop at red lights? they want to be treated with respect and courtesy and share the road, then why don't they go along with the rules of the road? I constantly see them going straight through the lights. If I ran a red light in my car, I would get a ticket and points on my license, I guess this doesn't happen with bikers, that is why every single biker I have seen in the last week just goes right through the light as if it doesn't exist. -
We've also had a lot of issues with bikers in the past few months. Most do not stop at red lights, will come into your blind spot even if you have your right signal on - almost defying you to make your turn - and I've even had one zig zag in front me while driving! My husband actually thinks that some bikers want to be hit for the insurance $ or to prove some sort of weird point about their "having the right to ride bikes in crowded city streets". I tend not to agree with that, however, driving in general has become more dangerous due to bikers feeling that they do not have to obey traffic laws. Oh - I should mention my poor mom who has almost been mowed down twice by reckless bikers. I really like the idea another poster had about dedicating a couple of streets to bikers and others strictly to motorists - I think in the long run that would be safer and more pleasant for everyone.
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LongTimeSloper wrote: If I ran a red light in my car, I would get a ticket and points on my license, I guess this doesn't happen with bikers, that is why every single biker I have seen in the last week just goes right through the light as if it doesn't exist.
Yes, bicyclists can and do get tickets for running red lights. FWIW. -
Just for reference, here is an excerpt from the NYC traffic laws as pertaining to bicycles:
"53. Bicycles
(1) Bicycle riders to use bicycle lanes. Whenever a usable path or lane for
bicycles has been provided, bicycle riders shall use such path or lane only except
under any of the following situations:
(i) When preparing for a turn at an intersection or into a private road or
driveway.
(ii) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including but not
limited to, fixed or moving objects, motor vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians,
pushcarts, animals, surface hazards) that make it unsafe to continue
within such bicycle path or lane.
(2) Driving on or across bicycle lanes prohibited. No person shall drive a
vehicle on or across a designated bicycle lane, except when it is reasonable and
necessary:
(i) to enter or leave a driveway; or
(ii) to enter or leave a legal curbside parking space; or
Section 4-12
(iii) to cross an intersection; or
(iv) to make a turn within an intersection; or
(v) to comply with the direction of any law enforcement officer or other
person authorized to enforce this rule; or
(vi) to avoid an obstacle which leaves fewer than ten feet available for
the free movement of vehicular traffic.
Notwithstanding any other rule, no person shall drive a vehicle on or across a
designated bicycle lane in such manner as to interfere with the safety and
passage of persons operating bicycles thereon.
(3) Bicycles permitted on both sides of 40-foot wide one-way roadways.
Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway that carries traffic in one
direction only and is at least 40 feet wide may ride as near as is practicable to
either the left or the right hand curb or edge of such roadway, provided that
bicycles are not prohibited from using said roadway. " -
Just to be a bicycle asshole, I would argue that this:
(ii) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including but not
applies to nearly _all_ the bike lanes in NYC. They are often unsafe because of getting door'd, cars pulling in and out, people standing there, cars and trucks standing there, the inability to see if someone is _about_ to step into one, etc.
limited to, fixed or moving objects, motor vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians,
pushcarts, animals, surface hazards) that make it unsafe to continue
within such bicycle path or lane. -
There are bikers that go against traffic and don't obey traffic lights - and there are those of us that don't do those things.
When I bike to the Park, I go up 3rd Street which has a bike lane, but when I return, I come back on 4th Street (where I live) and 4th doesn't have a bike lane. Why do I do that? Because if I came up 2nd street which has a bike lane, I would have to bike 2 blocks on 5th Avenue to get home and the bike lanes on 5th Avenue are a joke - cars/trucks double park there all the time. Luckily, 4th Street doesn't get a lot of traffic. Yes, I know I shouldn't be biking there but 5th avenue terrifies me and 6th avenue doesn't have a bike lane (that's a little less scary to me than 5th but not much)
On another note...I'm glad this thread was split...it's really sad about that man being killed and it was getting a bit upsetting seeing all that arguing on the thread. -
Peanuts wrote: There are bikers that go against traffic and don't obey traffic lights - and there are those of us that don't do those things.
Why do you say you shouldn't be biking on 4th? You said you're doing it when returning from the park, right? You're riding with traffic, right? Then don't feel guilty. You are allowed on any street as long as you are riding in the correct direction.
When I bike to the Park, I go up 3rd Street which has a bike lane, but when I return, I come back on 4th Street (where I live) and 4th doesn't have a bike lane. Why do I do that? Because if I came up 2nd street which has a bike lane, I would have to bike 2 blocks on 5th Avenue to get home and the bike lanes on 5th Avenue are a joke - cars/trucks double park there all the time. Luckily, 4th Street doesn't get a lot of traffic. Yes, I know I shouldn't be biking there but 5th avenue terrifies me and 6th avenue doesn't have a bike lane (that's a little less scary to me than 5th but not much) -
I guess because there's no bike lane - but yes, I ride with traffic - I guess I thought I'm only supposed to ride on streets with bike lanes
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Peanuts wrote: I guess because there's no bike lane - but yes, I ride with traffic - I guess I thought I'm only supposed to ride on streets with bike lanes
Definitely not true. According to the law, a bicycle is a vehicle. So don't be sheepish. That is very dangerous, actually. I think this is the reason why a lot of mis-guided people ride on the sidewalk. They think its safer. Very untrue. You are safe when you are visible and behaving as a vehicle. It great that you respect the traffic rules, so keep it up, and don't be afraid!
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Why do bikers go through red lights?
I can tell you why I sometimes do: because to stop my bike and start up again means losing the momentum I have built up, and requires getting back up to speed from a dead stop. That requires a great deal more effort than putting one's foot on a gas pedal.
However, I never zip through a red light without first slowing down and looking both ways to make sure there are no pedestrians in the intersection or cars approaching the intersection. -
OK, i still consider that wrong. A red light is a red light! You are supposed to stop and wait for it to change to green. I understand about losing momentum, but, if bikes want to ride along with traffic and be given all the same courtesies, then they need to obey the same rules!
That wouldn't be tolerated with a car, if I slowed down and looked for pedestrians and then slowly went through a red light, it would still be against the law and people would freak out on me! -
Yes, that's true. But bikes will never "be given all the same courtesies". Drivers will continue to cut us off, crowd us, and generally harass us even if we act like perfect citizens.
People who drive SUV's (especially the largest, like Ford Expeditions) or minivans think they own the left-hand lane, especially when they choose to drive 10 miles per hour below the speed limit. Drivers of cars observe even fewer courtesies to bicyclists than SUV drivers do to subcompacts. -
booklaw wrote: Why do bikers go through red lights?
This is another reason I prefer my fixed gear bike--because its easier to start up from a light when you learn how to do something resembling a track stand.
I can tell you why I sometimes do: because to stop my bike and start up again means losing the momentum I have built up, and requires getting back up to speed from a dead stop. That requires a great deal more effort than putting one's foot on a gas pedal.
However, I never zip through a red light without first slowing down and looking both ways to make sure there are no pedestrians in the intersection or cars approaching the intersection.
Booklaw, I know that its very easy to get used to running the lights. I used to do it a lot too. However, after learning more about bike culture in countries where it is much more prevalent, you start to realize that there are advantages to just slowing down a little and stopping at lights. If you look at pictures from Copenhagen bloggers you never see anyone running lights.
Those people seemed to be getting where they needed to go, and they seemed less stressed while doing it. This made me make a conscious effort to stop at lights, signal, etc. I've found that I only lose 6-10 minutes per hour commute. That is so little for the benefits to your physical and mental well-being.
Also, I find that if I concentrate more on my strength level (which builds up naturally over time), I almost always catch up with that cyclist ahead of me who ran the light. There is one guy I see almost every day on Clinton St. who always makes me shake my head. He is fully decked out in helmet and bright orange safety vest, but runs EVERY light down Clinton. He may get a head of me at the lights that I stop for, but I always pass him when the light turns green again. I'm way ahead of him by the time we reach Atlantic.
So why risk it? Is it worth the extra 10 minutes? If you want to save time, work on being able to move faster when the lights are green. -
I echo both of booklaw's recent posts.
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booklaw wrote: Yes, that's true. But bikes will never "be given all the same courtesies". Drivers will continue to cut us off, crowd us, and generally harass us even if we act like perfect citizens.
But what happened to taking the high road? Setting an example? Why stoop to their level?
People who drive SUV's (especially the largest, like Ford Expeditions) or minivans think they own the left-hand lane, especially when they choose to drive 10 miles per hour below the speed limit. Drivers of cars observe even fewer courtesies to bicyclists than SUV drivers do to subcompacts.
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