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The Stroller Manifesto — Brooklynian

The Stroller Manifesto

sje
sje
edited November -1 in Prospect Heights
Posted outside of Patio Lounge in the slope:
Keep your kids and strollers out of adult bars!

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/

I found this on Salon, originally printed in the now subscription-only BKLYN magazine. Interesting.
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Comments

  • anonymous
    anonymous
    I found this kind of disturbing. Anyone who knows us, knows that Jyo goes to the bar. We never go during busy times and we never stay if she is fussy. All around a great option for us and profitable for the bartenders--usually we bring friends. And if we don't bring friends we are certain to drink well and tip accordingly.
    Is this bartender really saying, that if I arrive with ten of my friends and a baby, when the bar is EMPTY, that she will not serve us? Sucks for her I guess. We'll just go across the street where they are happy to have us. Also, is she an owner? Can she really say who she will and will not serve. It's ok if a bartender/server would rather not have us. Usually we pick up the vibe, finish our drink and leave. But to decree that she will not allow children. That is strange, no?


    Jane (AKA wife of muk)
  • muk
    muk

    Subject: Re: The Stroller Manifesto

    I like this quote from the blogger in the Salon piece,

    "I don't drink at your nursery school (well -- not anymore) -- so you shouldn't bring your child to where I do drink."

    Uh, ok. Great point.

    Seriously, why don't they just disallow children under a certain age? Is there a legal issue with that? Any law talking folks out there know the answer?
    sje wrote: Posted outside of Patio Lounge in the slope:
    Keep your kids and strollers out of adult bars!

    http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/

    I found this on Salon, originally printed in the now subscription-only BKLYN magazine. Interesting.
  • sje
    sje
    I have no rugrats, and don't drink either, so I really have no opinion, however, I thought it was illegal to allow anyone under 18 in a bar, anyway. No?
  • muk
    muk
    It should be 21 for a bar, right? But what about a bar/restaurant?
    sje wrote: I have no rugrats, and don't drink either, so I really have no opinion, however, I thought it was illegal to allow anyone under 18 in a bar, anyway. No?
  • emily
    emily
    But places like Soda are also restaurants, right? I don't have a problem with kids in a bar before 8 or 9 PM, and I've never seen kids in a bar any later than that, so I don't feel it's much of an issue. If there really have been people changing their kids' diapers in the middle of a drinking (and maybe eating) establishment, then that's just nuts.
  • jamesondean
    jamesondean
    Depends on the place/mood/time, etc. My biggest concern is twofold:

    1) Fold 'em and Hold 'em: space always is at a premium in NYC. If you're on the subway, in a restaurant/bar/whereever, there typically is not enough room for a deployed stroller (especially the SUV variety), so the strollers should be folded, and children held.
    2) If kids get screamy or otherwise out of control, it's time to go outside or home.
  • brooklynswordstyle
    brooklynswordstyle
    I just don't think it's appropriate. Bars are for adults, not children. If you want to drink while with your kids, do it at home. I love kids, have friends with kids, and plan on having some of my own some day. But I'll never bring my future kids to a bar, a "grown up" movie, the theater, or other places where adults should reasonably be able to expect to be free of children.
  • muk
    muk
    I'd say that bars like, say, Mooney's, Freddy's, and O'Connor's probably should remain child-free. But take a look at Soda Bar for example. The owner, Toli, has always been more than welcoming to us. He helped us plan our daughter's one year birthday party, which we held in the back room at Soda - during business hours no less. In that sense, it's the proprietor, not you or I, that sets the tenor for what is and is not acceptable regarding the inclusion of children.

    The simple idea that "bars are for adults, not children" is one that just does not resonate with the demographic trends of the neighborhood. I think that we will see more "bars for adults/kids" as well as plain old "bars for adults."

    I'm still curious about the legal question I posed above.
    BrooklynSwordStyle wrote: I just don't think it's appropriate. Bars are for adults, not children. If you want to drink while with your kids, do it at home. I love kids, have friends with kids, and plan on having some of my own some day. But I'll never bring my future kids to a bar, a "grown up" movie, the theater, or other places where adults should reasonably be able to expect to be free of children.
  • stacey
    stacey
    I have to say Emily pretty much said it perfectly - I have brought my 9 year old son but even when he was small we took him to bars/restaurants. My personal opinion is that I would not let my son "sit" at the bar only because there is adult conversations going on that my son should not be exposed to. But if there is a seating area/dining area that's where we go. When he was younger we used to take him out with us, but we always were careful not to let him run wild (where he shouldn't) and taught him to use his inside voice. Of course there were times that he was just uncontrollable and we left. I have had the pleasure of meeting Muk's, Quig's and Andy's little ones at our Happy Hours and I must say that they are very well-behaved little munchkins and their parents are very attentive to them.
  • brooklynswordstyle
    brooklynswordstyle
    The problem is, at what point does it stop?

    When they are toddlers?

    When they are 4th graders?

    When they are in junior high?

    If a place wants to be a family restaurant, that's fine. I have trouble wrapping my head around a family bar though. The difference between a bar and a restaurant, at least in my admittedly addled mind, is that the point of restaurant is eating, while the point of a bar is drinking and mingling. I'm not sure the bar activities are compatible with kids.

    I'd prefer not to drink and mingle with the youngsters.
  • anonymous
    anonymous
    I agree with Mr. Sword. I think that bars are not appropriate places for kids. Plus, when kids are around, you have to censor your conversations out of respect (no cursing, no talking about sex, etc.). And when you have the type of parent who allows their kids to roam freely, all of those bottles and pint glasses make me nervous. It never ceases to amaze me how later people will keep their young children out? I once saw a couple dining with their toddler in a pub at midnight. ACS anyone?
  • emily
    emily
    In a way, I think it's easier to bring infants into that kind of situation. They are more likely to stay asleep and wouldn't understand naughty words if they overheard them. I think we can agree that anyone keeping their kid in a bar til midnight is (like the table-top diaper changers) nuts. I just don't think people who have a drink on Soda's patio on a bright summer evening, small well-behaved child in tow, deserve to be painted with the same brush.
  • sterling2000
    sterling2000
    A lot of this discussion depends on what a person views as a bar's purpose. To get loaded? To hook-up? To have conversation? To start a fight? To build community?

    Different bars serve different purposes. I wouldn't bring my children into some bars, but I would (and have) in many others. Like most parenting choices, it comes down to making a decision that fits you and your child. Parents should be respectful of other patrons, just as any bar patron should be respectful of any other patron. I've been in plenty of bars full of adults only wishing certain "grown-ups" would just leave, too.

    In places like NYC, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Boston, Buffalo and Chicago, and particularly in more working class areas of those cities, bars have always served as a center of a community. When I lived in western Pennsylvania in an old steel and coal mining region, each immigrant group had their own churches and bars in equal numbers, side by side with few lines drawn between the community of both.

    For more on the topic, I'd suggest the current bestseller "The Tender Bar" by JR Moehringer and Pete Hammil's classic "A Drinking Life" for more about bar culture as an extension of family and community. Lots of people somewhere must like the concept of kids in bars if they're willing to lay out cash for a critically-acclaimed memoir like "The Tender Bar."
  • jamesondean
    jamesondean
    If you want a real memoir involving bars, read A Fan's Notes by Frederick Exley. No town square nostalgia there.
  • oiseau
    oiseau
    If you have a child you should be willing to make some sacrifices and not bringing them to a bar is one of them!
  • anonymous
    anonymous
    Why Oiseau?

    I would make that sacrifice if I thought I was hurting/inconveniencing my child or disturbing the other patrons. But what's the problem with what Emily suggested--sitting out on the patio at Soda at 5 on a Sunday sipping a beer and feeding my toddler a veggie burger? Or what's wrong with us, sitting in the back room of Soda on Monday night? We don't let her grab pint glasses, bother strangers, scream, cry or otherwise disturb others? What's the problem with that? If she is old enough to be disturbed by profanity or discussions of sex, maybe we won't take her. Who knows? Right now, at certain establishments--it works.

    Keep in mind, many bars invite Moms to bring their toddlers. Ever hear for Tots and Tonic? At many locations here and Cobble Hill. Good for business.

    Jane
  • flute
    flute
    Jane wrote: Keep in mind, many bars invite Moms to bring their toddlers. Ever hear for Tots and Tonic? At many locations here and Cobble Hill. Good for business.
    I intuitively feel that bringing kids to bars (i.e., The Bar) is wrong. Obviously you can't shield them from drinking activities, i.e, restaurant/bars, parties, family gatherings and the like ... but to drag a kid just to sit with Mom or Dad AT the bar ... seems inappropriate. We all know of kids who started sipping Mom or Dad's or Uncle's or friend's beer as a little kid and ended up sneaking drinks up to their room ... and so on and so on and so on ...

    Obviously that's not going to happen in every case, but why so obviously set your kid up for that?
  • candicissima
    candicissima
    I voted for "in the morning" -- or rather in the daytime in general because adults with their kids in the bar at that time isn't hurting anyone and hell, most people aren't around getting shitfaced then anyways. I know during the summer at Soda when it was like 7pm, I didn't really have a problem seeing kids running around -- minus some momentary cognitive dissonance. But after 8pm? They should be in bed anyways, not watching everyone drink a pint.
  • sje
    sje
    From a sociological viewpoint, this issue is very interesting to me. When I was a kid, bars were forbidden, mysterious places, it would have been shocking for a child to be in one, they were not let in under any circumstances. A parent would have been thought crazy/severely neglectful to try to bring one in whilst tying one on. They were, no question about it, adult only. {grew up in NYC, btw}.

    Obviously, a place that serves food also, like Soda, is not just {only} a hardcore bar, so I'm not sure this issue is especially relevent concerning "hybrids", especially since children are sometimes even invited. If kids are invited, that's your tipoff to know what to expect, and not complain about it.
  • candicissima
    candicissima
    sje wrote: From a sociological viewpoint, this issue is very interesting to me. When I was a kid, bars were forbidden, mysterious places, it would have been shocking for a child to be in one, they were not let in under any circumstances. A parent would have been thought crazy/severely neglectful to try to bring one in whilst tying one on. They were, no question about it, adult only. {grew up in NYC, btw}
    Yeah definitely, I did too. If I saw a kid in Mooney's, I'd probably at least glare at the parents because that's just ridiculous. But Soda...they do kids programs after all!
  • anonymous
    anonymous

    Subject: stroller use

    To James on Dean...Folding a stroller and holding a toddler is not always physically possible and is certainly not comfortable for anyone if child is restless. For safety reasons I always have my son in the stroller on the subway. I use a small umbrella stroller that takes up little space.
    I think it is better to travel this way than to be cruising around in a gas guzzling SUV.
  • alafairnadia
    alafairnadia
    kids in bars don't bug me as long as they're chill and the parents are attentive (the kid is falling asleep, time to go home, etc). I do have to say, though, that once I've had a few, I have major problems censoring myself, so I'm apt to subject your kid to all sorts of inappropriate things.

    speaking of: bewitched, check your pockets.
  • bewitched
    bewitched
    alafairnadia wrote: speaking of: bewitched, check your pockets.
    OMG you evil thing you! LMAO. :lol: I can't believe that didn't fall out when I put my gloves on oh last night, this morning, or at lunch time.
  • alafairnadia
    alafairnadia
    bewitched wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]speaking of: bewitched, check your pockets.
    OMG you evil thing you! LMAO. :lol: I can't believe that didn't fall out when I put my gloves on oh last night, this morning, or at lunch time.

    blame Carnivore, actually. he thought they'd be helpful w/ your new boyfriends.
  • candicissima
    candicissima
    alafairnadia wrote: blame Carnivore, actually. he thought they'd be helpful w/ your new boyfriends.
    A broken [redacted]? I guess he didn't have that much faith in their equipment(s) -- were you gonna tie the little ends in a knot? :lol:
  • bewitched
    bewitched
    Alright ladies, last time I checked I don't have one boyfriend let alone multiple ones. I appreciate the parting gift nonetheless, it gave me a good chuckle in the middle of a very dull afternoon.
  • alafairnadia
    alafairnadia
    bewitched wrote: Alright ladies, last time I checked I don't have one boyfriend let alone multiple ones. I appreciate the parting gift nonetheless, it gave me a good chuckle in the middle of a very dull afternoon.
    :)

    horray! our work here is done.
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    I just wish I could have seen her face when she found them. :twisted:
  • jamesondean
    jamesondean

    Subject: Re: stroller use

    guest wrote: To James on Dean...Folding a stroller and holding a toddler is not always physically possible and is certainly not comfortable for anyone if child is restless. For safety reasons I always have my son in the stroller on the subway. I use a small umbrella stroller that takes up little space.
    I think it is better to travel this way than to be cruising around in a gas guzzling SUV.
    1) Folding your stoller will not compel you to buy a vehicle with poor gas mileage, so that's irrelevant.
    2) "For safety reasons?" Have your child sit down or hold onto something, like every other child.
    3) Congratulations on not having an SUV stroller. However, you're still part of the problem, sorry to say it. Fold your stroller, please. If this can't be managed, as many parents do, perhaps a cab or car service is in order.
  • apollonia666
    apollonia666

    Subject: Re: stroller use

    guest wrote: For safety reasons I always have my son in the stroller on the subway.
    Yeek. Didn't you see that horrible video from Korea a few weeks ago, in which a stroller got caught in a subway door and dragged the baby, its mother, and another commuter who jumped in to help down the platform? All the tv news shows were showing it and talking about how it was a good illustration of why the MTA has a rule stating strollers should be folded up.

    http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_316014551.html

    That was some scary shit.
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