Homophobia in Crown Heights / Bed-Stuy
Okay, touchy subject but I was just walking on Fulton street after visiting some friends and these two women maybe in their 30s with six young children between them were going on about "faggots and lesbians are gonna rot in hell" and this and that and my gut reaction was just to turn around and glare because I was so upset thinking (but NOT speaking), "Really? Really you have this hatred and you are spewing it in front of your children and in public?" and the woman just got SO AGGRO towards me just hatin' on me/making fun of me and trying to initiate a larger argument, or worse, a fight-- with her kids there. It was so insane!!!
I am wondering how much of this I can expect around Fulton/Nostrand and surrounding areas. Weirdly I have TONS of LGBTQ friends in the area and lots of downlow guys live in the area, too. I mean, I guess that explains why they are DL.
I am living in north Bed-Stuy now and the worst I've encountered is a neighbor saying something about how I am a lesbian while walking around with my then partner. I didn't read that remark as mean, just weird that they mentioned something.
Do any other LGBTQ folks live in the area or have friends who are that visit? What have your experiences been like? Thanks.
I am wondering how much of this I can expect around Fulton/Nostrand and surrounding areas. Weirdly I have TONS of LGBTQ friends in the area and lots of downlow guys live in the area, too. I mean, I guess that explains why they are DL.
I am living in north Bed-Stuy now and the worst I've encountered is a neighbor saying something about how I am a lesbian while walking around with my then partner. I didn't read that remark as mean, just weird that they mentioned something.
Do any other LGBTQ folks live in the area or have friends who are that visit? What have your experiences been like? Thanks.
Comments
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two questions or maybe statements.
1. walking around fulton st, You were visiting
2. how do you know the people you encountered wasn't doing the same,
rushing to judgement,,, sickening
you said your self you had this situation happen to you while leaving from visiting . you don't know these people nor do you know where they live unless you were harrassed by the people you were visiting.
it's only my opinion, you just want to chat
food for thought someone hit me with an umbrella on fulton and nostrand should I assume people over there are accident prone? ha ha ha -
basketball fan,
It doesn't matter if the people were visiting or not. They felt comfortable in having that conversation on Fulton St. That's more to the point. It is not the same as an umbrella accident, the conversation was premeditated and occurred over a length of time, no accident. Unless you were stabbed repeatedly with the umbrella, they aren't the same.
Furthermore, your answer is more like an academic "gotcha". This thread is not a class in evidence collecting, it's a thread about potential homophobia in neighborhoods that have a lot of LGBTQ people moving in. Much more important than your armchair analysis of who is saying what. -
I think this was probably a random occurrence. There are tolerant and intolerant people of all kinds all over the place. I don't think this woman speaks for any particular neighborhood.
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Not that support gay bashing, verbally or otherwise, anywhere, but on whose map is Fulton not Bed-Stuy? I can buy that despite historic boundaries, Dean s debatable and stretchable, but has the Crown Heights name grown 'hot' enough to stretch it across Atlantic now? Wow.
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jf22561 wrote: I think this was probably a random occurrence. There are tolerant and intolerant people of all kinds all over the place. I don't think this woman speaks for any particular neighborhood.
Umm, I really don't think it's any mystery that sadly, homosexuals are MUCH less welcome in the more working class, ethnic neighborhoods.. and that goes for Irish and Italian just as much as for Black and Caribbean.
Are you sure you're a "Native NY'er"? Because you sure don't seem like one. -
daver wrote: Not that support gay bashing, verbally or otherwise, anywhere, but on whose map is Fulton not Bed-Stuy? I can buy that despite historic boundaries, Dean s debatable and stretchable, but has the Crown Heights name grown 'hot' enough to stretch it across Atlantic now? Wow.
Daver, are you splitting hairs or do feel a need to defend the good and pure name of Crown Heights as a bastion of tolerance? -
So, Obamanut, you're saying that all of Fulton St. is really homophobic and this woman speaks for the area? If not, what exactly are you saying????
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modsquad wrote: Daver, are you splitting hairs or do feel a need to defend the good and pure name of Crown Heights as a bastion of tolerance?
lol, just curious as these boundaries stretch. Hell, you can call it Park Slope for all I care, although it is probably more accurately Prospect Heights, right?
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modsquad wrote: [quote=daver]Not that support gay bashing, verbally or otherwise, anywhere, but on whose map is Fulton not Bed-Stuy? I can buy that despite historic boundaries, Dean s debatable and stretchable, but has the Crown Heights name grown 'hot' enough to stretch it across Atlantic now? Wow.
Daver, are you splitting hairs or do feel a need to defend the good and pure name of Crown Heights as a bastion of tolerance?
daver is correct. fulton street is not crown heights! -
Sorry good point, this was at Nostrand so Bed-Stuy.
Anyway I know this is really complicated/touchy but there was such hatred and disdain from this woman.
Ugh. Most of my friends have not had problems so I should take that as a sign I suppose that this was a random occurrence and next time I hear hatred on the street I unfortunately should keep my mouth shut> -
Perhaps they heard you say this and figured you started it...
brooklynleather wrote: Fulton is disgusting, covered in chicken bones and smelling like hot piss. No one should have to live like that.
My point being that there are a lot of feelings of anger towards new folk coming in and upsetting and changing the neighborhood, without regard to LGBTQ issues. Could have something to do with those sorts of frustration more than true LGBTQ hate personified. Or maybe they would have been down with a white yuppie in a three piece on the block. Who knows. -
daver wrote: Perhaps they heard you say this and figured you started it...
I seriously doubt she was walking down Fulton Street spouting that out loud, though - come on.
[quote=brooklynleather]Fulton is disgusting, covered in chicken bones and smelling like hot piss. No one should have to live like that.
As we discussed in an earlier thread, though, anyone who is comfortable walking around in public loudly declaring their hatred for this or that group is not going to be persuaded or shamed by anything someone says or does in that moment. I know firsthand that it's hard NOT to respond sometimes, but I think in these situations it's ultimately not productive. -
apollonia666 wrote: [quote=daver]Perhaps they heard you say this and figured you started it...
I seriously doubt she was walking down Fulton Street spouting that out loud, though - come on.
[quote=brooklynleather]Fulton is disgusting, covered in chicken bones and smelling like hot piss. No one should have to live like that.
You don't think that people walk around with that sort of attitude, regardless of what they say? Not everybody, but I have _definitely_ seen it.apollonia666 wrote: As we discussed in an earlier thread, though, anyone who is comfortable walking around in public loudly declaring their hatred for this or that group is not going to be persuaded or shamed by anything someone says or does in that moment. I know firsthand that it's hard NOT to respond sometimes, but I think in these situations it's ultimately not productive.
I would agree that it is quite pointless. That said, there is a big difference between someone spouting random crap while you are walking (totally ignorable) and someone getting up in your face creating a situation (not so much so.) -
Uhm, I don't walk around Fulton saying that I save it those who need a vivid sensory description of the experience. The Fulton Mile, as I have walked in many times, has almost always smelled like pee and been littered with trash and predominantly chicken bones. I have a sensitive sense of smell, maybe it is a nuance that doesn't reach you. As far as scattered chicken bones and various trash, I would love to find a stretch unlike that.
I agree that the issue can and most likely was complicated by me passing as and/or being white in a community of color where I don't know the folks who live there and they don't know me. But I am living in an allegedly progressive city now for seven years and I never heard that kind of hatred being spewed except during pride when the religious fanatics come out and hate up on us.
Again daver, I don't see why you need to pick fights all the time. -
Not fighting, pointing out that perhaps your attitude that all these areas are full of run down buildings, crime, and drug dealers _may_ have something to do with the things that happen to you. Not that it makes it right, and not that you don't have the right to have those attitudes, you can of course feel however you choose to feel. Just something to consider. In a friendly manner.
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daver wrote: Not fighting, pointing out that perhaps your attitude that all these areas are full of run down buildings, crime, and drug dealers _may_ have something to do with the things that happen to you.
Not to add fuel to the fire, but there is truth here. I moved to CH after 10 years in Queens about 6 months ago, and all I saw was filth and scary people who didn't look like me. Lo and behold all I experienced was hostility, fear, and depression.
Now that I've calmed the hell down a little, I'm getting to the place where I feel at home, and look at that, the sun shines, people smile, there's a spring in my step and a song in my heart.
Which is not to say I don't watch my back at certain times of night. And I do wish the streets were a little bit cleaner... But one thing at a time, you know? Attitude informs experience, and when my attitude got better, my experience got a lot better. -
Unfortunately I have this horrible luck where I've bore witness to horrible trauma in Bed-Stuy and I am afraid this bad luck with follow me -- and of course others these things seem to hapen to. We are thinking of saging the apartment.
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moonpia, welcome back! ...those trips are lousy.
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brooklynleather wrote: Unfortunately I have this horrible luck where I've bore witness to horrible trauma in Bed-Stuy and I am afraid this bad luck with follow me -- and of course others these things seem to hapen to. We are thinking of saging the apartment.
Not to be mean, but based on a lot of the things you've posted, this doesn't seem like the right neighborhood for you. If you do plan on staying, you might want to reach out to some black or caribbean LGBT folks and talk to them about the neighborhood. Starlight hasn't been here for forty years for nothing, and I'm sure that there are folks that can tell you how to navigate the neighborhood or at least help you with the transition. -
Yeah I appreciate that advice. I am actually really excited about Starlight and have started reaching out to LGBTQ folks I know in the area, whether they've lived here really or for years.
To break it down for you though in the last year I have seen now two dead bodies, a mugging, heard many shootings (though most of us have) along with more minor break-into-the-apartment kind of stuff. I don't know anyone else who has witnessed this much who is not a cop. I hope this gives you insight into my anxiety. -
moominpapa wrote: Not to add fuel to the fire, but there is truth here. I moved to CH after 10 years in Queens about 6 months ago, and all I saw was filth and scary people who didn't look like me. Lo and behold all I experienced was hostility, fear, and depression.
It's called "Stockholm Syndrome".
Now that I've calmed the hell down a little, I'm getting to the place where I feel at home, and look at that, the sun shines, people smile, there's a spring in my step and a song in my heart.
Which is not to say I don't watch my back at certain times of night. And I do wish the streets were a little bit cleaner... But one thing at a time, you know? Attitude informs experience, and when my attitude got better, my experience got a lot better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
I think it's important to trust your instincts. Everybody who has ever been mugged always says, "shit, I had a feeling...." -
.....and you call yourself a "tough cookie"?
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off the topic of how many dead bodies you have to see before it counts and back to the actual question....
i'm a gay ol' lez living in crown heights. no one's given me any trouble or indeed seemed to notice (i don't have the shaved head anymore, though, and i've never been that into PDA, even if the straights can't control themselves). i am out to the neighborhood old timers who i am on more than just "good morning" terms with, and no one's batted an eye. no one seems to bat an eye at the obvious tranny latina who lives by me (and seems to have for quite a while, given that everyone knows her). and there are plenty of local non-new-comer queer folk around that i've seen, including a couple groups walking to the labor day parade with pride flags. it ain't the village, but it's been fine for me here, except for these two times:
- a bunch of kids (9-11, i'd guess) leaving the playground on sterling between classon and washington yelled a bunch of stuff at us, including whether we were lesbians and if they could shave my head. i told them in good humor that i'd already shaved my head and that i'd think about it, but i was liking my hair. then they started asking if they could shave our "pussies". didn't think to turn the conversation cat-fancy-ward, so we just kept walking -- we were past them by now -- and chalked it up to pre-teen freakiness about sex plus having seen someone's porn. a minute later they threw a fair-sized hard rubber ball at us, such that it barely missed my head and hit the metal construction fencing. not sure what the intent was, but i pocketed the ball and gave it to another kid later in the afternoon.
i wouldn't really call that gay bashing, since i'm in no way convinced the kids even though we were actually gay -- i think they were just hyped up and looking to yell. not saying their behavior was nice, just nothing i'm reading too much into.
-- here's where i disagree with you, daver: sometimes you can't just walk away from someone saying appalling things, even if they aren't knowingly addressed at you, and keep your dignity intact. some days, i can, and some days i just can't.
i got into it with a subway preacher on a rush-hour 4 train leaving franklin. yes, i know that's a mug's game, but sometimes, at 6:30 in the morning, i just can't stand being yelled at about how my particular people are going to hell. so i told her to shut up, and then we screamed bible verses at each other for a while. totally pointless, except that once in a while it feels good to not just lie there and take being insulted to my face.
what was somewhat upsetting was that they only people on the train who weren't ardently studying their shoes or the ceiling when this happened were cheering her on with an unexpected and frankly pretty ugly intensity. that sucked.
on the other hand, i got a seat at the next stop and plenty of space, all the rest of my ride. so not a total loss. -
sweet tea wrote: -- here's where i disagree with you, daver: sometimes you can't just walk away from someone saying appalling things, even if they aren't knowingly addressed at you, and keep your dignity intact. some days, i can, and some days i just can't.
Yeah, I believe that we have had this conversation before at some point, and I don't fault one a bit either way on something like that. -
modsquad wrote:
Not to be contrary, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't brought to Crown Heights against my will. Nor am I "loyal" to my "captors". I was actually seeing abuse where none was taking place.
It's called "Stockholm Syndrome".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
I think it's important to trust your instincts. Everybody who has ever been mugged always says, "shit, I had a feeling...."
I agree it's very important to trust your instincts, but sometimes, when emotional equilibrium is off, instincts can be oversensitive. I'd say it's possible that when one is in a state of paranoia, one sees threat even where there isn't any, which is where I was at.
But I'm feeling MUCH better now...
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modsquad wrote: [quote=moominpapa]Not to add fuel to the fire, but there is truth here. I moved to CH after 10 years in Queens about 6 months ago, and all I saw was filth and scary people who didn't look like me. Lo and behold all I experienced was hostility, fear, and depression.
It's called "Stockholm Syndrome".
Now that I've calmed the hell down a little, I'm getting to the place where I feel at home, and look at that, the sun shines, people smile, there's a spring in my step and a song in my heart.
Which is not to say I don't watch my back at certain times of night. And I do wish the streets were a little bit cleaner... But one thing at a time, you know? Attitude informs experience, and when my attitude got better, my experience got a lot better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
I think it's important to trust your instincts. Everybody who has ever been mugged always says, "shit, I had a feeling...."
I totally had a feeling when I got carjacked. -
Interesting topic...I just find it comical how many of the people who move into Brooklyn neighborhoods forget about the original inhabitants...not saying that what was done is justifiable...but I feel like before you step into any neighborhood, remember not every block is Dyke slope...If we wanna talk number of years I have lived wherever...I was born and raised in parkslope...and I am child of a 1st generation-raised caribbean born male. I never lived in crown heights until now...and i am a Dyke with a capital D...so when i step out on to nostrand...I walk prepaired...that is what you gotta do...why??? because half of the people you are gonna encounter in that area are either closeted, they are the spook sitting next to the door, or they are a religious extremist... and have yet to realize that I too am human...I do not have an illness, i don't need to Re-read any "good book"...SO YOU walk with a PURPOSE... confidently but not with arrogance...and nobody fucks with you... do what you do... (they will pay you no mind)...know when to be humble, and when to re-act....but DONT walk around like your in a bottomless hell.... or act shady/scared. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY DON'T.... act as if you are above this...many of the original inhabitants...don't understand why many of our LGBT or privledged counterparts are living the 'Hood...paying the rent that we do...
SIMPLY PUT...homophobia/repression/religious extremism/ cultural differances in close quarters... makes for explosions once and awhile...SO walk prepaired
Peace!
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