Now we know their names

LongTimeSloper wrote: And I disagree with that point of view and do believe that abortion is murder since the fetus inside of a woman has a beating heart. Why is it a fetus when it is an unwanted pregnancy but a baby with other pregnancies?

And, I am sorry, you are making it sound as if not having an abortion would be going against the views of your religious sect, it's not like reform Judaism is saying you must have an abortion, they are just saying they would allow it if you chose to. So, not having one would not mean you are going against the teachings of your religion. Are you saying that any Reformed Jewish woman who is pro choice is going against her religion when she chooses to have her child instead of aborting? That seems warped.

not saying that at all. i'm saying that my religion permits abortion, and if you stop me from having on you are making me follow the laws of another religion.

Announcer: Ladies and Gentlemen, 73-year-old candidate, John McCain.

Kang: Abortions for all.

[crowd boos]

Very well, no abortions for anyone.

[crowd boos]

Hmm... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for

others.

[crowd cheers and waves miniature flags]

pastoralia wrote:
I wish I could be a better person and see things from the Republican side of view but if you're voting for McCain (or Palin as someone above wrote- someone who must be a troll because that can't be for real) you are a fool.

There goes that lovely name calling again.

pastoralia wrote: The Republicans have fucked this country over for the last eight years, their hypocrisy knows no bounds ("Less Government- but I want to tell you how to live your personal life and what to do with your body.") and they have destroyed the concept of America in the world. From a nation of great people with high-minded ideals to a war-monger that taps it's own citizen's phones (even it's own military personnel's phones when calling loved ones in Iraq), throws people in secret camps (some might be justified but if you were that one innocent rotting away would you be so understanding?), and uses fear to convince the ignorant that an American like Obama is a terrorist, is stealing an election (just because ACORN signed up Mickey Mouse doesn't mean Mickey Mouse will be voting on November 4th).

We need London's Ring of Steel. Cameras on every god damn corner. You know, if tapping someone's phone is going to possibly ensure the safety of the country and family, GO RIGHT AHEAD. tap my phone and listen to all of my lovely conversations.

metalnyc wrote: You know, if tapping someone's phone is going to possibly ensure the safety of the country and family, GO RIGHT AHEAD. tap my phone and listen to all of my lovely conversations.

Are you serious or just being sarcastic?

brooklynpotter wrote:
his belief system is not unlike my own, and he wants women and minorities to have the equal rights they're supposed to be getting in this country.

he is pro-choice. he wants to get us out of irag. unlike the other guy, he doesn't call his wife a cunt in public. unlike that other guy, he doesn't call asians gooks.
.

The above statement is true for virtually all Democratic candidates. Clinton wanted the same thing. Once again: what's the difference? Hope, change, just words. Why is he special?

Livetotravel wrote: There are many Repugs living in Park Slope - they started coming here in the get rich Reagan years and proliferated during the hay-days of hedge funds. Now that the perpetrators of great frauds on unsuspecting investors are being investigated by the scores - maybe, just maybe, the Repugs-come-lately will abandon Park Slope for good and return to Staten Island where they belong.

Ehh... what years are you talking about?

PS used to be largely Repub. Very much blue collar workers, (cops, firemen..something for the city)

It TURNED Liberal/Dem

I'm talking close to 80 yrs ago or so.

BTW...wow. This thread went spiraling out of control lol

BrooklynGigCenter wrote:
Try reading the NY Times endorsement of him.

You mean the same NY Times that used it's political influence to use eminent domain to oust working people from their homes and businesses?

BrooklynGigCenter wrote:
Or watch Colin Powell's endorsement of him.

Yeah, an endorsement with just two weeks left in the election is such a big endorsement. Hmmm, let's see who the front runner is in October and ask him for a job. Powell will be in the Obama cabinet. Surprise surprise.

I just don't see the whole "true leader". If he was really a leader, why did half of his own party vote against him during the primaries? He hasn't had much leadership in the Senate. Where is it apparent? And if Obama has such "good judgement", why did he vote yes on FISA? More importantly, why did he change his vote? The truth shall set you free.

Or course the McCain/Palin ticket is against abortion, they have to bread an army. We are gonna run out of solders soon.

Retag wrote:
Once again (no one answered my question) what makes Obama so good? Yes, he is better than McCain, and most people are voting for him simply because he is the lesser of two evils, but what makes people thing Obama is a god? This fanatical devotion will be a deterrent once he is elected.

ETA: i'm sorry for the length of this. if you're not retag, feel free to skim or skip.


well, here's why i think obama is a great guy and will be a great president -- besides the fact that i agree with him on most (but not all) major issues, which would be reason enough for me to vote for him.

i met obama in june of 2001, at the national conference marking the end of my year of volunteer, full-time national service, post-college. the conference was attended by about 1500 people, aged 17-24, who had completed the same program. it was meaningful work, but very, very hard. i was pretty burned out on the whole thing, to tell you the truth. feeling less idealistic than i had when i signed up, tired of making no money for the sake of my country in the year of the first bush tax "refund" (i got a letter in the mail explaining that i wouldn't get one and guilting me for not contributing to the economy), feeling in general unappreciated and worn out.

our big name speakers that week were bill clinton and john mccain. i almost skipped clinton's speech. i was so over clinton. i was pissed at him about don't ask don't tell, the election of W, and especially about squandering the possibility of progressive reform for the sake of his stupid, stupid penis. mccain, on the other hand, i was VERY excited to hear speak. he was a hot-property for the independently-minded young political nerd, and he was sure to give an interesting speech, since he had initially opposed americorps but had some to support it.

clinton's speech was first. he was 3.5 hours late, and we were in full, heavy uniforms in the un-AC'd second floor of a gym. it was ghastly. i was PISSED. the he arrived. and besides having the most supernatural charisma ever (it's freaky), he talked to us like he understood how hard we hard worked for a shared goal. he said the 2 things no one had said to us all year: "I love you. And I am proud of you." there wasn't a dry eye in the house. i climbed over people to shake his hand.

mccain's turn a day or two later. so excited. we all poured into a proper lecture hall, with real seats. 1500 young voters, devoted to our country. he never once looked at us. he read in a monotone what was obviously a generic stump speech left over from his primary bid. all i ever saw of him was the top of his head, because he wouldn't look at us. i can't tell you how rude i found that. it really changed my impression of him.

obama at this point was a state senator, not from my district. his talk wasn't a major part of the conference, but i figured i'd go, since i like politics and it was inside. it was a small talk in a college classroom -- maybe 30 of us listening. his talk was wonderful, and perfectly attuned to us. it was about turning idealism into concrete results, and how difficult that can be. i liked it, except for a little place where he used a rhetorical device all-too-familiar in the speeches of northern democrats. i can't remember the details, but the typical conflation of rural southerness with backwardness. so i went to talk to him about it. i told him i had liked his speech, but that he should be careful about that, that some of us were quite proud of our families. he explained the point he had been trying to get at. i told him i understood his point, but that his words were still unkind, unfair, and part of a generally losing strategy for the democrats. and he listened to me and said i might be right about part of that, that he would be more careful.

i left that room so pleased -- not only was this guy smart and generally on my side, but he had LISTENED TO ME. me, 22 years old and no political expert. me, in my ugly timberland uniform 2 sizes too big. me, who couldn't vote for him.

to me, this speaks of the right kind of character to have in power. he is smart and well-educated, but he is still open-minded, willing to listen to criticism. that's extraordinarily rare, especially among those with sufficient reserves of pride to go into politics.

THAT's why i like him so much better than mccain. i like him better than i liked kerry or gore. i like what his campaign is doing. i worked for moveon in 2004, too, but this campaign feels different. i feel invited and, yes, empowered to call people up all over the country and talk to them as myself, not just as a script reader. i love that this campaign trusts its volunteers (this is true in many respects, from who runs local offices to what you can put on your obama campaign blog) to be the message. i can't explain this very well, i guess, but it does feel really different to me.

i think it's TRUE that his election will mean something deeply amazing about america, and not just because of his race. i was on a long-distance train in early january. our engine broke down at night, we had to wait forever with no heat, and then got crammed into the cafe car of the train that rescued us. everyone was in a foul mood. then someone with a blackberry or something called out to the car that obama had won in iowa. the feeling in that car...it was transcendent. people were laughing. people started crying. unhappy strangers were suddenly smiling at each other and telling stories. i've never experienced anything like that.

i don't think he's god, and i do worry about a backlash if that's what folks are expecting. i liked clinton an awful lot, too. but i can't wait for president obama.

sweet tea wrote: [quote=Retag]
Once again (no one answered my question) what makes Obama so good? Yes, he is better than McCain, and most people are voting for him simply because he is the lesser of two evils, but what makes people thing Obama is a god? This fanatical devotion will be a deterrent once he is elected.

ETA: i'm sorry for the length of this. if you're not retag, feel free to skim or skip.


well, here's why i think obama is a great guy and will be a great president -- besides the fact that i agree with him on most (but not all) major issues, which would be reason enough for me to vote for him.

i met obama in june of 2001, at the national conference marking the end of my year of volunteer, full-time national service, post-college. the conference was attended by about 1500 people, aged 17-24, who had completed the same program. it was meaningful work, but very, very hard. i was pretty burned out on the whole thing, to tell you the truth. feeling less idealistic than i had when i signed up, tired of making no money for the sake of my country in the year of the first bush tax "refund" (i got a letter in the mail explaining that i wouldn't get one and guilting me for not contributing to the economy), feeling in general unappreciated and worn out.

our big name speakers that week were bill clinton and john mccain. i almost skipped clinton's speech. i was so over clinton. i was pissed at him about don't ask don't tell, the election of W, and especially about squandering the possibility of progressive reform for the sake of his stupid, stupid penis. mccain, on the other hand, i was VERY excited to hear speak. he was a hot-property for the independently-minded young political nerd, and he was sure to give an interesting speech, since he had initially opposed americorps but had some to support it.

clinton's speech was first. he was 3.5 hours late, and we were in full, heavy uniforms in the un-AC'd second floor of a gym. it was ghastly. i was PISSED. the he arrived. and besides having the most supernatural charisma ever (it's freaky), he talked to us like he understood how hard we hard worked for a shared goal. he said the 2 things no one had said to us all year: "I love you. And I am proud of you." there wasn't a dry eye in the house. i climbed over people to shake his hand.

mccain's turn a day or two later. so excited. we all poured into a proper lecture hall, with real seats. 1500 young voters, devoted to our country. he never once looked at us. he read in a monotone what was obviously a generic stump speech left over from his primary bid. all i ever saw of him was the top of his head, because he wouldn't look at us. i can't tell you how rude i found that. it really changed my impression of him.

obama at this point was a state senator, not from my district. his talk wasn't a major part of the conference, but i figured i'd go, since i like politics and it was inside. it was a small talk in a college classroom -- maybe 30 of us listening. his talk was wonderful, and perfectly attuned to us. it was about turning idealism into concrete results, and how difficult that can be. i liked it, except for a little place where he used a rhetorical device all-too-familiar in the speeches of northern democrats. i can't remember the details, but the typical conflation of rural southerness with backwardness. so i went to talk to him about it. i told him i had liked his speech, but that he should be careful about that, that some of us were quite proud of our families. he explained the point he had been trying to get at. i told him i understood his point, but that his words were still unkind, unfair, and part of a generally losing strategy for the democrats. and he listened to me and said i might be right about part of that, that he would be more careful.

i left that room so pleased -- not only was this guy smart and generally on my side, but he had LISTENED TO ME. me, 22 years old and no political expert. me, in my ugly timberland uniform 2 sizes too big. me, who couldn't vote for him.

to me, this speaks of the right kind of character to have in power. he is smart and well-educated, but he is still open-minded, willing to listen to criticism. that's extraordinarily rare, especially among those with sufficient reserves of pride to go into politics.

THAT's why i like him so much better than mccain. i like him better than i liked kerry or gore. i like what his campaign is doing. i worked for moveon in 2004, too, but this campaign feels different. i feel invited and, yes, empowered to call people up all over the country and talk to them as myself, not just as a script reader. i love that this campaign trusts its volunteers (this is true in many respects, from who runs local offices to what you can put on your obama campaign blog) to be the message. i can't explain this very well, i guess, but it does feel really different to me.

i think it's TRUE that his election will mean something deeply amazing about america, and not just because of his race. i was on a long-distance train in early january. our engine broke down at night, we had to wait forever with no heat, and then got crammed into the cafe car of the train that rescued us. everyone was in a foul mood. then someone with a blackberry or something called out to the car that obama had won in iowa. the feeling in that car...it was transcendent. people were laughing. people started crying. unhappy strangers were suddenly smiling at each other and telling stories. i've never experienced anything like that.

i don't think he's god, and i do worry about a backlash if that's what folks are expecting. i liked clinton an awful lot, too. but i can't wait for president obama.

like most people, you are voting for him based on his speaking skills, which undeniably he is very good at.

nope, for his listening skills. very similar, but not the same.

i'm also voting for him because, as i said in the first paragraph, his positions on most issues are the closest to mine of any available, viable candidate. reagan was a good speaker, too, but -- although i'm too young to guarantee it -- i don't imagine i would have voted for him.

hey, at least -- unlike powell -- i'm not getting accused of voting along racial lines.

maybe i should add that i don't think good speaking skills are trivial. i do believe that one of the qualities of a leader should be to inspire people, and of course, good speakers do inspire people.

in the hope of preventing the immediate godwinning of this thread, let me emphasize that WHAT a leader inspires you to do is OF COURSE much of the point. effective leaders can be very dangerous.

but i don't think that's the case here. i find obama someone who inspires immense numbers of people towards positive work. why wouldn't i want such a person in charge?

booklaw wrote: metalnyc, did you not read the section about

he listened to me and said i might be right about part of that, that he would be more careful.

i left that room so pleased -- not only was this guy smart and generally on my side, but he had LISTENED TO ME. me, 22 years old and no political expert. me, in my ugly timberland uniform 2 sizes too big. me, who couldn't vote for him.

to me, this speaks of the right kind of character to have in power. he is smart and well-educated, but he is still open-minded, willing to listen to criticism. that's extraordinarily rare, especially among those with sufficient reserves of pride to go into politics.

Clearly Sweet Tea was basing her decision on way more than speaking skills.

apprently you didn't read the rest where she mostly talks about the speaking posture and subsequent post, mostly referring to the listening of Obama.

i got more out of that than she agreed with most of his agenda, but she says she does, so i'm cool with that.

metalnyc wrote:
like most people, you are voting for him based on his speaking skills, which undeniably he is very good at.

Bingo! We have a winner!

Notice how no one spoke about Obama's policies. Yes, he sticks to the party line on all issues, but how is he different. If McCain were a better speaker, would that make him better? No. That's why I found people talking about who "won" the debates laughable. Even if you were able to get your idea out there in a better way, if the idea is wrong in the first place, it still is wrong. Obama can talk eloquently all he wants about economic policies, I still think he is wrong. Still better than McCain, but still wrong.

Hopefully the Republicans will be beat so badly (they will) that they will finally oust the Evangelicals from the party.