IT'S ON- TWU STRIKES!!!!
Comments
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metulj wrote: Whoa, now there's exactly not what I meant. If we both worked say as professors at a university, had the similar tenure, teaching and publishing records with PhDs from similar quality programs, the 'got a GED' logic says that I should be paid less.
It's late for me to jump into this but I keep hearing debates circle around this topic, and I don't get it. I don't think anyone could possibly maintain that a GED holder with a PhD should be paid less than a high school diploma holder with a PhD; it's the PhD that matters. But I do find it odd that people say that education shouldn't matter in how much you get paid. If you spend thousands of dollars in tuition and years of your time becoming an expert in something by getting a high-level degree, and subsequently end up in a job that a small number of people would be qualifed to do and that requires your specific expertise, it makes perfect sense to me that your investment in education would be paid off in the form of a higher salary. You are a rare commodity; people have to pay more to get you. I've spent the last week listening to friends of mine say that it's not fair for people with more education to get paid more, and that just seems egregiously simplistic to me. -
Subject: Re: LIRR
Candicissima wrote: Not only do you have to go through Jamaica, but you better buy your ticket in advance because I tried to do just that and the line was wrapped around to Hanson Pl. And then you have to wait once you get to Jamaica. I waited forever -- did you know there's only 2 ticket booths down in the Flatbush LIRR? Well, I didn't until today. The conductor was actually encouraging people not to go the Jamaica-Penn route because he said it was worse there. It's fucking hell and I just gave up and walked.
THANKS for posting this. This was exactly what I was going to do. Now I won't. -
EmilyM wrote: [quote=metulj]Whoa, now there's exactly not what I meant. If we both worked say as professors at a university, had the similar tenure, teaching and publishing records with PhDs from similar quality programs, the 'got a GED' logic says that I should be paid less.
It's late for me to jump into this but I keep hearing debates circle around this topic, and I don't get it. I don't think anyone could possibly maintain that a GED holder with a PhD should be paid less than a high school diploma holder with a PhD; it's the PhD that matters. But I do find it odd that people say that education shouldn't matter in how much you get paid. If you spend thousands of dollars in tuition and years of your time becoming an expert in something by getting a high-level degree, and subsequently end up in a job that a small number of people would be qualifed to do and that requires your specific expertise, it makes perfect sense to me that your investment in education would be paid off in the form of a higher salary. You are a rare commodity; people have to pay more to get you. I've spent the last week listening to friends of mine say that it's not fair for people with more education to get paid more, and that just seems egregiously simplistic to me.
I am making an absurd point about this. I know that the terminal degree counts, but for some reason people 'other' people who do jobs that do not require the same level of education as their jobs does. "I killed myself in Law School and I'm only making 20 grand more than a train conductor!" Phbbt. I am killing myself in grad school and will make less than a train operator. That person can't do what I can, and I am the last person who needs to drive a train. How those jobs are valued is different. I read in the Times that the economic loss per day with the MTA is $400 million. What is the point exactly?
I have worked labor jobs, some union, some not, all my life, I have met people who could manage very complicated task jobs (such as driving an MTA train) who had little education, but have also met people with PhDs who worked at Oak Ridge National Laboratory handling stuff that would frighten your average disaster specialist who couldn't find their asses with both hands. -
EmilyM wrote: But I do find it odd that people say that education shouldn't matter in how much you get paid. If you spend thousands of dollars in tuition and years of your time becoming an expert in something by getting a high-level degree, and subsequently end up in a job that a small number of people would be qualifed to do and that requires your specific expertise, it makes perfect sense to me that your investment in education would be paid off in the form of a higher salary. You are a rare commodity; people have to pay more to get you. I've spent the last week listening to friends of mine say that it's not fair for people with more education to get paid more, and that just seems egregiously simplistic to me.
It totally depends on what that job is. If you have a PhD and are a waitress, then no, your employer doesn't have to adjust your salary accordingly. What about if you're going for a mid-level position in an office with a Master's and hardly any work experience compared to the person who got their GED and Associates and has 10 years of work experience? And there's always the publishing industry where 2 degrees can get you less than $25K and overtime if the company is generous. -
Candicissima wrote: [quote=EmilyM]But I do find it odd that people say that education shouldn't matter in how much you get paid. If you spend thousands of dollars in tuition and years of your time becoming an expert in something by getting a high-level degree, and subsequently end up in a job that a small number of people would be qualifed to do and that requires your specific expertise, it makes perfect sense to me that your investment in education would be paid off in the form of a higher salary. ...
...If you have a PhD and are a waitress, then no, your employer doesn't have to adjust your salary accordingly. What about if you're going for a mid-level position in an office with a Master's and hardly any work experience compared to the person who got their GED and Associates and has 10 years of work experience? ...
I think I already addressed that. If someone who has a GED and Associates degree can do a job as well as or better than a person with a PhD, it obviously doesn't require the PhD's specific expertise. It requires expertise, but not the kind that only a PhD has. -
EmilyM wrote: I think I already addressed that. If someone who has a GED and Associates degree can do a job as well as or better than a person with a PhD, it obviously doesn't require the PhD's specific expertise. It requires expertise, but not the kind that only a PhD has.
Oh totally, but most people who argue "higher degree = more money" probably aren't talking about rocket scientists and professors. They're talking about Joe and Jane Random, philosophy Phds pushing papers entry level in an office space type setting that "should" be making infinitely more thousands more than Sam and Pam, the blue collar workers. Kinda what Metulj is saying. -
This appears to be the official strike update, in case anyone is still interested:
From ABCNews:
The warring sides really can't move forward with negotiations until the contempt of court hearing is resolved. One official told us that it might not last long but the courtroom has been reserved for the next two days.
Lawyers for both the city, the union and the MTA arrived at state supreme court for a hearing that was supposed to start at 11:00 a.m. Earlier Judge Theodore Jones issued a TRO or temporary restraining order against striking union members, ordering them to get back to work but instead they are picketing across the city, including just outside the court house. They now face the possibility of being fined two days pay for every day on strike.
John Mooney, TWU VP: "We're here to say the union's got the power and we're here to say that we're gunna stand up for our rights. We're not here to be intimidated by these laws that suppress free speech and suppress workers rights so that they can obtain a fair wage. The union's got the power." -
qtrain wrote: It amazes me how easily people align themselves with corporate interests, as if maximizing company profit at the expense of workers was an admirable thing.
I find it interesting as well. I sense in a lot of these posts a condescension toward the TA workers that is very disturbing. When the teachers unions want equitable pay and sufficient supplies and safe working conditions do we balk? Of course not. And when the firefighters and police are able to retire after 20 years (or so, I'm not sure what the exact number of years are) with full benefits +++++, do we balk? No. Or, if so, to a far lesser extent.
There was a point several years ago where I thought that unions were no longer necessary because it SEEMED that "corporate America" had begun to incorporate the good faith attitudes toward their workers that the earlier unionizers had demanded ... but I no longer feel that way. Read "Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser. -
The union vs. MTA argument really misses the point, as far as I'm concerned. In any society there are going to be disputes, and each side will always think that it's right. What is vital to a democracy and a smoothly functioning society is the settlement of these disputes via legal means. In this case, that means arbitration. We can't always have what we want, but you have to respect the rule of law, or use peaceful protest, freedom of speech and political lobbying to change those laws. Degenerating into breaking the law and using force or coercion leads to anarchy and everyone loses (yes, the TWU will lose from this too).
Maybe the transit workers have a legitimate beef. Maybe they deserve more money, better conditions, etc. Let them resolve this without holding the city hostage and punishing millions of people who have no control over the matter. When you take a public service job you accept a responsibility to serve the public, and when you work in a monopoly you accept regulation.
Con Ed could easily shut down the entire power grid of the city and demand $10 million a year salaries, and there's nothing we could do about it if we were afraid to enforce the law. Give me a break, guys. -
qtrain wrote:
As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
To appease shareholders, no doubt.
It amazes me how easily people align themselves with corporate interests, as if maximizing company profit at the expense of workers was an admirable thing.
Come on everyone, some of you must know that the nation's largest and most influential shareholders are...wait for it...pension funds. (Other evil shareholders like university endowments also abound.) So if you're robbing from your pension fund to pay the workers and promise them future pensions, isn't there something wrong with this picture? Duh!! -
escap wrote: . In any society there are going to be disputes, and each side will always think that it's right. What is vital to a democracy and a smoothly functioning society is the settlement of these disputes via legal means. In this case, that means arbitration.
Wow. All a corporation has to do is own all of the arbitrators. -
escap wrote: As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
Honoring pension obligations is a far cry from maximizing worker profit. -
qtrain wrote: [quote=escap]As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
Honoring pension obligations is a far cry from maximizing worker profit.
?? And? What's your point? I have heard no discussion of any pension obligations being reneged on. -
escap wrote: [quote=qtrain][quote=escap]As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
Honoring pension obligations is a far cry from maximizing worker profit.
?? And? What's your point? I have heard no discussion of any pension obligations being reneged on.
Bullshit. The pension has been wrecked. Check out the link to the Comptroller's report above. If this were Tyco, someone would be going to jail for the accounting, management and leadership malfeance of the MTA. Republican ineptocracy at its best. You know, I find it fascinating how New Yorkers are all liberal and what not until it inconveniences them.
Oh yeah this is fascinating:
http://tinyurl.com/bqfct -
I'm so glad to have someone respond to my insanely vitriolic posts with equal insanity. Thank you!!
No pension obligations have been reneged on. The MTA is trying to change its future obligations, which are currently under negotiation. I absolutely agree with you that the MTA is an incompetent, pathetic organization that provides crappy service and is managed by corrupt and inept fools. I would also add that they are horrendous negotiators.
As for New Yorkers, I don't really know what you mean by "liberal" since that word is so vague. But I rarely support monopolies, and tolerate them only under strict government regulation. I've always been absolutely opposed to any form of civil disobedience, civic protest or conflict resolution that involves harming innocent civilians.
I'm actually one of the lucky ones, b/c I'm on vacation for the next three weeks. But I love this city and I can't stand to see it held hostage like this. -
metulj wrote: [quote=escap][quote=qtrain][quote=escap]As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
Honoring pension obligations is a far cry from maximizing worker profit.
?? And? What's your point? I have heard no discussion of any pension obligations being reneged on.
Bullshit. The pension has been wrecked. Check out the link to the Comptroller's report above. If this were Tyco, someone would be going to jail for the accounting, management and leadership malfeance of the MTA. Republican ineptocracy at its best. You know, I find it fascinating how New Yorkers are all liberal and what not until it inconveniences them.
Oh yeah this is fascinating:
http://tinyurl.com/bqfct
Ummm, did you read the second page of the article you link to? yeah the figures in discussion are small over a few years but are almost logarithmic over time, 80 million after 20 years, who do you think is going to pay that? You and me.
I also dont see the big deal in asking the worker to put 6% into the pension fund, thats what I put into my retirement fund.
also, 9% raises for 3 years, (which they lowered to 8% for unspecified years) are you kidding?
Yes, they deserve a secure future and fair pay, but their pay isnt all that bad right now, and the changes the MTA is asking are realisitic from where I sit. However they have chosen to strike and put how many incomes in jeapordy? They are basically screwing over every Nickel and Dime worker in the city who lives paycheck to paycheck.
Yes, the MTA (Kalikow) are a bunch of Rat fucks who dont know what they are doing and have no idea of what money is where, maybe they have a billion surplus..maybe they dont, either way whos to say it belongs to the transit workers and not the people in transit.
This could have been handled better by both sides, but it was the union who flexed their muscle to the pain over everyone else in NYC.
And I dont appreciate to be made out to be some cold republican or something, the fact is if the employees smother any company into making unrealistic payments the company itself may not survive, then everyone is screwed. -
qtrain wrote: [quote=escap]As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
Honoring pension obligations is a far cry from maximizing worker profit.
How is a company to honor pensions when it is bankrupt? -
Captain M wrote: [quote=qtrain][quote=escap]As if maximizing worker profit at the expense of shareholder profit was an admirable thing?
Honoring pension obligations is a far cry from maximizing worker profit.
How is a company to honor pensions when it is bankrupt?
Good point -- it can't. But a business strategy that relies disproportionally on benefit cuts to return to profitability is not addressing the reasons the company failed in the first place. -
I read in the Daily News today that transit workers can retire at 55 at half pay. Pretty good deal. I got to work today with no problems, so the TWU can go to hell. Lazy fatasses.
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Jack Krohn wrote: I read in the Daily News today that transit workers can retire at 55 at half pay. Pretty good deal. I got to work today with no problems, so the TWU can go to hell. Lazy fatasses.
Hell yea. Their leader needs to go on a hunger strike. He will loose weight when he goes to jail. No pork chops for you there just green balony. -
Alex wrote: [quote=Jack Krohn]I read in the Daily News today that transit workers can retire at 55 at half pay. Pretty good deal. I got to work today with no problems, so the TWU can go to hell. Lazy fatasses.
Hell yea. Their leader needs to go on a hunger strike. He will loose weight when he goes to jail. No pork chops for you there just green balony.
Actually, the MTA made an acceptable offer, but Toussaint ate it...
::JOKE:: -
I can't be the only one who is astounded by the subtle racist/classist undertones of the MTA/Government v. TWU debate going on in this city (NOT specifically the posts here at DH).
Is it possible that the minority-majority blue collar workers at the TWU see this as a battle against a white male majority who waste money and take every opportunity to defame them? -
horseycraze wrote: I can't be the only one who is astounded by the subtle racist/classist undertones of the MTA/Government v. TWU debate going on in this city (NOT specifically the posts here at DH).
Doubt it... I think this has been simmering since the last contract negotiation.
Is it possible that the minority-majority blue collar workers at the TWU see this as a battle against a white male majority who waste money and take every opportunity to defame them? -
horseycraze wrote: I can't be the only one who is astounded by the subtle racist/classist undertones of the MTA/Government v. TWU debate going on in this city (NOT specifically the posts here at DH).
I heard some skank on the radio pulling out the old race card the other night at their rally before they commenced the strike. Of course it was just a matter of time. What about all the minorities that have worse jobs then TWU workers that are getting royally fucked by the greedy TWU.
Is it possible that the minority-majority blue collar workers at the TWU see this as a battle against a white male majority who waste money and take every opportunity to defame them? -
horseycraze wrote: I can't be the only one who is astounded by the subtle racist/classist undertones of the MTA/Government v. TWU debate going on in this city (NOT specifically the posts here at DH).
That's as may be, but I find it interesting that "respect" always turns out to mean "money" in negotiations. It is, of course, how our society conveys respect and worth. It's one of the reasons some parents regard teachers as servile rather than professional: teachers don't make much, therefore what they do must on some level be easy or unworthy of respect.
Is it possible that the minority-majority blue collar workers at the TWU see this as a battle against a white male majority who waste money and take every opportunity to defame them?
Seriously, if your theory holds true (which it very well might), I would expect Jesse Jackson to get personally involved. He seems to take on many cases where respect is the stated issue. -
Thats racist horseshit, I know plenty of white middle class people that will have to work till 65, have no pension, and put in more than 25 years at their jobs, and dont look forward to free drugs.
I just found out that on top of pension TWU Worker ALSO have a 401K!
Does anyone think they might all get canned like when reagan fired the air traffic controllers. Their contracts are gold by comparison to what many people make. -
OnEasternParkway wrote: [quote=muteflute]
I'll be walking down Bowery to get to the Manhattan Bridge in a few hours. Is it easy to access the ped. lane from there? Anything I should be looking for to find the ramp easier? What about staying on one side or the other to avoid bikers? They seem to be unusually cranky and self-righteous today. Any suggestions?
The entrances to the pedestrian and bike lanes on the bridges are terrible. they make no sense and the signage is really, really lacking.
I'm probably way late on answering this, but i've already walked on both sides, and strongly suggest that you stick to the pedestrian path. there are lots of, er, bikes on the bike path, and it felt even somewhat eeiry at 4:00 PM yesterday. there you are, on this small path, with not many people around, and people in ski masks on bikes are whizzing right by you.....felt strange, even for a 31 year-old male who is not afraid of much.
pedestrian path is on the right hand side coming from Manhattan. yup, signage sucks, and so does that transit circle.
what's cute about all this is that i recognized some of the same people walking in both directions on the bridge between 8 and 9 AM both days. the most curious to me has to be this woman walking towards Brooklyn with a Mud truck cup in her hand. if that Mud cup is any indication of how far she'd already been walking, i feel very bad for that woman. -
also, you bet your ass that my 30K-in-student-loan-owing Masters-degree holding self should be making more than someone with a high school diploma. i am no mood for intellectualizing that point any further than this, which does not bode well for the guest i'm at war with on the PS board in a few minutes...
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J0518 wrote: also, you bet your ass that my 30K-in-student-loan-owing Masters-degree holding self should be making more than someone with a high school diploma. i am no mood for intellectualizing that point any further than this, which does not bode well for the guest i'm at war with on the PS board in a few minutes...
when i looked up the MTA salaries i could hardly believe that they got paid WAY more than what i made as a public h.s. teacher after teaching 5 years in the system.. plus i was REQUIRED to get my masters & pay for it while working.. i thought i was making decent money, so to me this seems crazy... but, who knows. -
J0518 wrote: also, you bet your ass that my 30K-in-student-loan-owing Masters-degree holding self should be making more than someone with a high school diploma. i am no mood for intellectualizing that point any further than this, which does not bode well for the guest i'm at war with on the PS board in a few minutes...
Dont buy it... I'm sure what you do on a daily basis is very different from what they do.
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