Now we know their names

From http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

Repealing a portion of the Bush tax cuts for families over $250,000 while continuing to leave their tax
rates at or below where they were in the 1990s:

o Ordinary Income: The top two income tax brackets would return to their 1990’s levels of 36% and
39.6%. All other tax brackets would remain as they are today. Obama would also restore the 1990’s
levels for the personal exemption and itemized deduction phaseouts (known as PEP and Pease). Obama would work with the Treasury Department to adjust the thresholds of these rates slightly to
ensure that no married couple making less than $250,000 (or single making less than $200,000) was
affected by these changes.

o Capital Gains: Families with incomes below $250,000 will continue to pay the capital gains rates
that they pay today. For those in the top two income tax brackets – likewise adjusted to affect only
families over $250,000 – Obama will create a new top capital gains rate of 20 percent. Obama’s 20%
rate is equal is the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate that President Bush proposed in
2001. It is almost a third lower than the rate that President Reagan signed into law in 1986.vii

o Dividends: The top dividends rate for people making over $250,000 would be set at 20 percent.
Dividends will not return to being taxed at ordinary income tax rates. Obama’s 20 percent rate on
dividends will be 39 percent lower than the rate President Bush proposed in 2001, and would be
lower than all but 5 of the last 92 years we have been taxing dividends.viii

o Estate Tax: The estate tax would be effectively repealed for 99.7 percent of estates. For the
remaining 0.3% of estates over $7 million per couple, Obama will retain a rate of 45%. This policy
would cut the number of estates covered by the tax by 84 percent relative to 2000.ix

o Average Tax Rates Below the 1990s: Overall, the top 1 percent of households – people with an
average income of $1.6 million per year – would see their average federal income and payroll tax
rate increase from 21 percent today to 24 percent, less than the 25 percent these households would
have paid under the tax laws of the late 1990s.x

All in all these seem like very modest changes. The current top tax brackets are 33% and 35% meaning those making over $357,700 will have to eke things out with about 4% less.

that's kinda what i was saying a few pages ago, but was somehow too confused by the math to have it come out right.

i read that article and couldn't believe her insurance was only $151. aside from the fact that it's far cheaper out there, her coverage must be limited.

mine is $543. (i calculated lower priced plans with higher deductables, and the costs came out the same)

redmenace wrote: You can figure out (roughly) how your taxes will be affected here: http://taxcut.barackobama.com/

Of course, it doesn't say how much your taxes will go up if you are in the top 1%. Other sites have given a sliding scale, with $250k - 603K as only going up a pinch, and escalating from there.

FYI, I've run a lot of numbers through a lot of proposed plans, and that calculator sucks balls and is horribly inaccurate. And full of crap.

BTW, sorry to be so complicated. But this is complicated shit. That's how they pull the wool over your eyes. Fuck them. And don't believe them. Any of them. Question what you read and are told. And shit. They are _all_ completely full of shit.

Yup.

queencallipygos wrote: One point about the McCain heath care credit, though --

You do not RECEIVE this credit until next year. Which means that you have to first pay for your health care. So it's not a health "credit", it's more like a health "rebate."

Which means you have to have had the money in your pocket to pay for it FIRST.

What I've not yet had explained to my satisfaction is, what happens if you DON'T have that money in your pocket?

You don't have to pay any more out of pocket. You just have to pay TAXES on the payments you made throughout the year at the end of the year. Which is, coincidentally, the same time you would get the credit. Satisfied?

BTW, I don't care for the McCain plan, but there are _plenty_ of valid reasons to criticize it, all the rest is just subterfuge and a bullshit-screen thrown over everything.

Actually, now that I think about it, if you figured everything carefully you could adjust your withholding and take home extra every month instead of the big refund at the end of the year. Should that be your want.

daver wrote: BTW, sorry to be so complicated. But this is complicated shit. That's how they pull the wool over your eyes. Fuck them. And don't believe them. Any of them. Question what you read and are told. And shit. They are _all_ completely full of shit.

Yup.

Hear Hear! I fully agree with this. That's why this year I'm not even trying to understand all the nuances of the tax and health care plans, etc. Last election I did and it all goes out the window in the end anyway. Waste of time. Actually, most of the crap they talk about is a waste of time. That's why I"m going to vote for the most experienced candidate - the one who's been vetted and has a long record of accomplishments. I don't agree with everything he stands for, and he hasn't run the best campaign, but I think he is the most capable and I have confidence he will do a good job.

daver wrote: [quote=redmenace]McCain's plan will tax any medical benefit you receive from your employer as income. that means that, even though you might be contributing $800 a month to your medical insurance, as we are, the additional $1000 a month borne by your employer will be taxed as income. Your employer will also have to pay taxes on this, causing some employers (presumably small businesses) to discontinue providing medical for their employees.

There are going to be a lot more people *without* insurance than there are now. That miniscule $5000 "credit" McCain is promising won't even begin to cover health insurance for an individual, much less a family of 4. And yes, you will be taxed on that incentive as income.
.

Hey, you can agree or disagree with the plan, but that _miniscule_ $5,000 credit would actually mean _more_ money in your pocket, which has been a criticism of McCain's plan, that it is overly generous to middle class folks.

OK, so your health insurance is $1,800/mo, $21,600/yr. Let me say that _that_ is pretty high. But whatever. The average family plan is $1,000/mo, $12,000/yr. Mine is more than that (family of six,) but closer to that than to yours. FWIW.

Anyhow. So right now you pay $800/mo, $9,600/yr. That money is undoubtedly pretax, so your total cost is $9,600. Let's say for the sake of argument that your household makes $60k, $13k above the NYC average of $47k. Way to go you! Anyhow, under the McCain proposal, you now have to pay taxes on those premiums. $60k puts you into the 15% bracket. But wait! Oh noes! That extra $1,000/mo, $12,000/yr that your employer is paying now kicks you into the 25% bracket!

So what.

Here we go for fun. I'll spare you the math, but if you want it ask and I'll lay it all out step by step. Under current rules, you are going to be taxed on $50,400 of your income, which will end up being $6,758. Woohoo! Under McCain's proposal, you will be taxed on $72,000 of income (your $60k plus the $12k your employer in ponying up,) which will end up being $10,688. Oh noes! That is $3,930 more!

Oh, but wait. There is that new $5,000 tax CREDIT. Which will take your $10,688 down to $5,688. Wow, that's an extra $1,070 in your pocket. Hmm. Odd, that.

If you have insurance premiums closer to the average, you'll end up with a lot more than just $1k extra in your pocket. Not that $1k is anything to scoff at.

Just saying. Debate the plans, fine. Just make sure to be accurate. Oh yeah, in the interest of accuracy, only families get the $5k credit, single filers would get a $2.5k one.

That whole Obama/Biden thing about McCain's $5k credit really being a $7k gap for the average family paying $12k in insurance is a bunch of crap, and they know it. Doesn't stop them from spreading it though.

Ya know, you spread enough crap on the lawn, it _does_ come up nice and green...

That math works as long as 1) the tax credit is increased in line with rising healthcare costs, not CPI as McCain proposes 2) you are able to keep your employer based healthcare. Many experts believe that mccain's plan would encourage employers to stop offering healthcare and encourage young healthy employees to opt out of it since the tax credit would make it cheaper to buy insurance on their own - but that would alter the risk pool resulting in higher prices for those who are able to remain in their employer based plans.

willregistersoon wrote: [quote=daver]BTW, sorry to be so complicated. But this is complicated shit. That's how they pull the wool over your eyes. Fuck them. And don't believe them. Any of them. Question what you read and are told. And shit. They are _all_ completely full of shit.

Yup.

Hear Hear! I fully agree with this. That's why this year I'm not even trying to understand all the nuances of the tax and health care plans, etc. Last election I did and it all goes out the window in the end anyway. Waste of time. Actually, most of the crap they talk about is a waste of time. That's why I"m going to vote for the most experienced candidate - the one who's been vetted and has a long record of accomplishments. I don't agree with everything he stands for, and he hasn't run the best campaign, but I think he is the most capable and I have confidence he will do a good job.

You're voting for Biden?

Uh, 250K is now down to 120K

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Richardson_strays.html

during nobama's debate with Hillary he was saying 97K and is on record as low as 47K. Basically, anyone with a job is screwed in nobama's world. Community work for all.

redmenace wrote: [quote=daver]BTW, sorry to be so complicated. But this is complicated shit. That's how they pull the wool over your eyes. Fuck them. And don't believe them. Any of them. Question what you read and are told. And shit. They are _all_ completely full of shit.

Yup.

I also think we can all completely agree that all this spew is merely "proposals". None of this is etched in stone, and it doesn't immediately go into effect when the candidate takes office.

I think it is fair to say that one should make their choice based on what ideals they would like in their president, not on promises.
No kidding, especially with Obama's talk about shooting the payroll tax all the way up the line.

queencallipygos wrote: [quote=eggcream]Uh, 250K is now down to 120K

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Richardson_strays.html

during nobama's debate with Hillary he was saying 97K and is on record as low as 47K. Basically, anyone with a job is screwed in nobama's world. Community work for all.

Uh, that link only says that some guy named Ben Richardson said that. That link says that Obama still says it's 250K.
Don't bother eggcream with facts.

John Cleese was on Olberman last night and said that if the GOP was running ads against McCain they would have led off with: "McCain spent 5 1/2 years of his life, at a time when he was just developing his world-view, in a Communist country listening to communist propaganda everyday. McCain wrong for America."

he will do nothing for you.

have you looked into healthy ny?

Drea, have you looked into Atlantis health insurance? I ask because my wife, a woman in her 60's who has survived two different kinds of cancer, was able to get coverage (with no preexisting conditions exclusion) from them for $355 per month.

I know that's a lot of money, but I'm guessing that a younger woman with fewer health issues might get a considerably lower premium.