Now we know their names

universal healthcare

John McCain website wrote: John McCain believes that no American should be denied access to quality and affordable coverage simply because of a pre-existing condition. As President, John McCain will work with governors to develop a best practice model that states can follow – a Guaranteed Access Plan or GAP – that would reflect the best experience of the states to ensure these patients have access to health coverage. There would be reasonable limits on premiums, and assistance would be available for Americans below a certain income level.

pulling us out of Iraq

John McCain wrote: I do not want to keep our troops in Iraq a minute longer than necessary to secure our interests there. Our goal is an Iraq that can stand on its own as a democratic ally and a responsible force for peace in its neighborhood. Our goal is an Iraq that no longer needs American troops. And I believe we can achieve that goal, perhaps sooner than many imagine.

transplant wrote: I thought the liberal party line position on McCain was that he wanted to keep our troops in Iraq for 100 years if necessary. That doesn't sound like pulling them out inside of 16 months whether Iraq is ready or not.

If you've followed the board at all, you'd know that daver is anything but someone who tows the liberal party line.

eggcream wrote: Get someone to read it to you dear.

Hey, you're the one that read R-I-C-H-A-R-D-S-O-N as "Obama."

queencallipygos wrote: [quote=eggcream]This congress has the lowest approval ratings in history.

No, it's THE PRESIDENT who has the lowest approval ratings in history. Get someone to read the news to you dear.
*sigh*

BrooklynGigCenter wrote: Actually, Congress does have lower approval numbers than Bush.

As a staunch Democrat, however, I really don't like either Pelosi or Reid, and I find myself hoping that Obama will find a way to replace them with better leaders.

They have both been disappointing. Hopefully, tomorrow will give enough of a mandate to prevent the Repugs from routinely filibustering on every issue and allow the Congress to actually accomplish something. If they could get a filibuster-proof 60 Senate seats, that would be even better, but that seems like a long shot right now.

queencallipygos wrote: [quote=eggcream] The economy was doing fine till the liberals took over congress, gas was around 2.00 a gallon and unemployment was at 4.6%. Since liberals took over these past 2 years gas is 4.00 a gallon and unemployment is at 6.1%.

When Clinton left office: we had a budget surplus.

One year after Bush took office: we had a deficit again.

This congress has the lowest approval ratings in history.

No, it's THE PRESIDENT who has the lowest approval ratings in history. Get someone to read the news to you dear.

Seriously, read before you respond.

The Three R's of McCain's Health Tax Credit
Amy Menefee
Friday, October 31, 2008

When one person calls something a tax hike and another calls it a tax break, they can't both be right.

Democratic Sen. Barack Obama has accused Republican Sen. John McCain of attempting to impose the "largest middle-class tax hike ever" on the American people.

How? By giving them a tax credit.

In his historic barrage of TV ads, Obama has zeroed in on McCain's health care plan. He has warned people that "what one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away."

It's frightening. These ads are aimed at the couple hunched over the kitchen table piled with bills, wondering where this shaky economy is going.

And Obama's telling them a great big whopper.

Yes, the value of job-based health insurance policies would become taxable. But that's where the whopper starts. Obama's ads leave viewers believing McCain is just going to tax their benefits and walk away.

Peeling that wool off our eyes, however, we see that McCain would offer them a tax credit more generous than the benefit they have now. The credit is worth $5,000 for families and $2,500 for individuals. How does it work? Here's an easy -- and necessary -- explanation.

The Three R's: Replace, Retain, Refund.

For those who have job-based health insurance, McCain's tax credit replaces an existing tax benefit they're already receiving.

Meanwhile, employers retain the same tax benefit they receive now for providing coverage to their workers.

For those who don't have job-based policies now, the credit is real, new money for health coverage. It's refundable -- meaning those too poor to pay taxes still receive the same amount.

The replacement point is important because it answers the $12,000 question: Is the tax credit supposed to pay the entire cost of your current job-based $12,000 insurance policy? No. It's supposed to shield you from paying taxes on it -- just like the current system does. The difference is, you actually get more money with McCain's credit.

For example, let's say Tom the carpenter has a taxable income of $40,000 a year. That means the government takes 15 percent of his income in taxes each year. He works for a generous construction company that provides him and his family with a group insurance policy valued at $12,000.

Right now he is getting a break worth $1,800, protecting his health insurance from taxes -- but McCain would give Tom and his family a tax credit of $5,000. Under the McCain plan, Tom comes out $3,200 ahead.

Even the liberal Tax Policy Center has acknowledged this is a tax cut. "Families at all income levels would pay lower taxes, at least on average," Len Burman of the Tax Policy Center told CBS.

And each employer still retains his business deduction for the costs of paying employees, whether he's paying them in cash wages or non-cash benefits such as health insurance.

One policy analyst explained it this way: "The most promising way to move forward in all three dimensions [of health care] -- coverage, cost, and long-run fiscal situation -- is to replace the employer exclusion with a tax credit ... Firms would still be allowed to deduct the cost of their contributions to employee premiums, just as they can deduct wages and other expenses today for the purpose of calculating taxable income."

That was Jason Furman, Obama's top economic adviser, writing in a February 2008 report. He certainly wasn't endorsing McCain's plan, but he showed he understood the value of a tax credit.

Too bad he wasn't consulted on Obama's misleading ad campaign.

To illustrate the refund aspect of the credit, let's take Nicole the barista. She's single and works in a small, independent coffeehouse making a little more than minimum wage. Her boss has only a few employees and can't afford to provide health insurance. Under the McCain plan, Nicole would get a $2,500 tax credit that in many states would go a long way toward purchasing an individual insurance policy. She could go from being uninsured to insured.

As a bonus, her new insurance policy won't be tied to her employer. If the coffeehouse closes and she goes to work at a bookstore, she will have no interruption in health coverage. Her policy and her tax credit would go with her.

McCain's health care proposal includes many more provisions, such as a Guaranteed Access Plan for those struggling with pre-existing conditions. But the tax credit has been the most ballyhooed and will be the most important for the majority of Americans.

Obama's ad push isn't over yet. His 30-minute infomercial attracted more than 26 million viewers, and we're sure to see a last-minute flurry of ads in the coming days.

Americans should listen to what he has to say with the skepticism deserved by someone whose ads are misleading a nation -- when even his top economic adviser knew better.

eggcream wrote: Give. me. some. examples. instead of liberal talking points.

After you post spin from a right-wing blog, you complain about liberal talking points?

eggcream wrote: You too didn't answer weather Joe the plumber's invasion of privacy was ok with you. See, that's an example.

OK, looked a bit. Anyone who accessed and shared such info, along with those benefiting from or directing such action should be prosecuted. It appears that there is an ongoing investigation, and that such action will be taken.

Can we investigate and prosecute those taken advantage of provisions of the Patriot Act? Because that would be pretty cool as well.

eggcream wrote: Spin? It's fact. Prove it's false? We're still waiting for your other examples re; the Patriot Act but we won't hold our breath. I give examples and facts and you give liberal lying talking points.

[quote=Carnivore][quote=eggcream]Give. me. some. examples. instead of liberal talking points.

After you post spin from a right-wing blog, you complain about liberal talking points?

The American people aren't going to be fooled again. Tomorrow, you will see them repudiate the Rove-Bush-Cheney-McCain-Palin agenda.

eggcream wrote: [quote=daver][quote=eggcream]Give. me. some. examples. instead of liberal talking points.
You too didn't answer weather Joe the plumber's invasion of privacy was ok with you. See, that's an example.

[quote=daver]The surveillance of US citizens without being subject to judicial review in the Patriot Act is fucking astonishing and an incredible assault on our freedom.

The economy is undoubtedly screwed up, a review of budget surpluses and deficits by year as proposed above would certainly be an effective argument as to who screwed it up. Along with regulatory arguments, and whatnot.

I don't know any liberal talking points. I posted _exactly_ what bothered me about the surveillance. I also posted a specific example of someone who got nailed, which you poo-poo'd.

Here is info about the budget deficit, if you are having trouble locating it: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/hist.pdf

I don't know Joe the Plumber. I would need to read more about that to make a judgment. I can say without a doubt that if he was violated through provisions of the Patriot Act, I would be very Not Ok with that.

San Francisco Radio Host Caught on Mic Calling for Death of Joe the Plumber



State employee says she was ordered to check out Joe the Plumber

and the director Helen Jones-Kelley gave the maximum donation to obama, 2500.00. no outrage in the leftist news media. this guy asks obama one question and his whole life is turned upside down because of obamas spread the wealth comment to joe the plumber.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/31/joe.html?sid=101

Yah, like I said in a later post, I read about that now. I fully support prosecuting those that illegally did that to him. And it sounds like that is what is happening.

Do you support prosecuting those that abuse the Patriot Act? Isn't that what we were talking about? Now that we are clear on ole Joe.

Oh please, 2 skinheads. Yeah, they're idiots. How about 20 years of Goddamn America Rev. Wright, NObama's mentor or how about the unrepentant terrorist NObama's other mentor(s)Bernardine Dohrn and William Ayers who dedicated his book Prairie Fire to Sirhan Sirhan or the racist Farrakhan or how about Hamas who has endorsed NObama. Nice list of thugs NObama hangs around.

Carnivore wrote: Eggcream, odd that you're not equally outraged by threats of assassination of not only Obama, but other random African Americans trying to vote for him.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4550854n

eggcream wrote: Oh please, 2 skinheads. Yeah, they're idiots. How about 20 years of Goddamn America Rev. Wright, NObama's mentor or how about the unrepentant terrorist NObama's other mentor(s)Bernardine Dohrn and William Ayers who dedicated his book Prairie Fire to Sirhan Sirhan or the racist Farrakhan or how about Hamas who has endorsed NObama. Nice list of thugs NObama hangs around.


[quote=Carnivore]Eggcream, odd that you're not equally outraged by threats of assassination of not only Obama, but other random African Americans trying to vote for him.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4550854n

So if it's white guys who are threatened, you're up in arms, but if it's black people who are threatened, you just say, "oh, please" and wave it off?

....Wow. :shock:

Retag wrote: I haven't read this thread since I posted a week ago (I have much better and important things to do with my time), but I found it curious that those who want universal health care are the ones that don't have any health care. Coincidence?

I want a BMW. Maybe Obama can hook me up.

Bullshit. I want a single payer system and not only do I have health insurance, but I'm a physician myself.