Holiday Trees In The Slope

No, not really, we all just like to argue! LOL

I couldn't imagine this group getting together in person! OY!

hitokiri wrote: [quote=transplant]
It's not an issue of whether Christians are thin-skinned or not, it's a question of non-Christians basically taking what is quite obviously a Christian tradtion, the Christmas tree, and going out of their way to steal that tradition. If you want to put up a fir tree in your home, decorate it, and put presents under it during December, then it's a Christmas tree.

THANK YOU!
+1

edit:
i quoted the wrong guy before lol

I'm not a guy! I have boobs. And a vajayjay. That I was born with.

LongTimeSloper wrote: [quote=anthonycm]What annoys me isn't who 'owns' the right to naming the tree. Hey, the pagans had a bad marketing team. Next time they'll do better. The point is that it's traditionally, for the past 100+ years or more, been called a Christmas tree. It seems to only be changing due to the PC forces out there that declare it must now have a non-secular name due to the fact that many non-Christians have it in their homes. I'm not pushing my religious beliefs, but I am pushing against all the PC crap that is often as over the top anti-Christian as some religious zealots are over the top pro-Christian.

I'm sure there's a South Park episode in here somewhere (cue someone posting a clip of Mr. Hankey).

this is exactly my issue with all of this! You said exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't think of, thank you!

hitokiri wrote: [quote=transplant]
It's not an issue of whether Christians are thin-skinned or not, it's a question of non-Christians basically taking what is quite obviously a Christian tradtion, the Christmas tree, and going out of their way to steal that tradition. If you want to put up a fir tree in your home, decorate it, and put presents under it during December, then it's a Christmas tree.

THANK YOU!
+1

edit:
i quoted the wrong guy before lol

See, the hypocrisy with all of this is that the appropriation of the symbol from the pagans and the appending of the Christmas name doesn't bother any of you because it's been a long time. But now you want to fix it in stone, and are outraged that the tradition has continued to evolve, and has been appropriated by others who no longer consider it just a Christmas tradition, but a secular one enjoyed by people of all backgrounds.

It's not "PC crap" to say that these trees aren't Christmas trees, it's just reality. Trees in Christian households are Christmas trees, and trees in other households aren't. I don't understand why this offends you so much- what someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas calls their tree shouldn't affect you at all. It's kind of like the hardcore Christian opposition to gay marriage. It doesn't affect you, so why not just leave people alone?

anthonycm wrote: This is a sincere question (okay, series of questions) for Taj, and not meant to start an argument: Taj, why did your Jewish in-laws have a tree in their homes for so many generations? Just curious, because I thought that it was only fairly recently that many Jewish people started having trees. Were they ahead of the curve, or has this always been fairly common? Also, were they always in western cultures through all those generations? Did their Christian friends, especially in the first generation or two, find it odd that they had a tree in a Jewish household? Have they called it holiday trees throughout that whole time? I'm sure there's an aspect to the Great Tree Debate that crosses geographical borders as well as religious ones.

I can't answer all these questions. That's kind of my point. People here are spinning all kinds of stories about other peoples motives when they can't actually read their minds. Why are people so quick to take offense when nobody actually did anything offensive or intended anything offensive?

What I know to be fact is that it is clearly not so recent an occurrence as people think. I don't know if they had Christian friends or if other people had trees. These people are dead. What I can say is that the oldest relatives I've spoken to had them and never thought nearly as much about it as everyone here seems to be. In other words, to them it was just normal. I don't know what they called these trees. I do know they were not in any way Christian or trying to "pass" as such.

stacey wrote: When I called it a candelabra in front of my dad's Jewish family you would have thought I cursed! They were very offended that me, having a Jewish family, would call it that. To which my oh so fabulous big sister said "well you always tell us since our Mom is not Jewish neither are we so why do you care now?"

Then again we were that type of family to bust my father's family's balls.

Now what do you call a tree that you hang bacon from?

(A Carni tree)

Although I'm a little surprised at their reaction, calling a Jewish family's menorah a candelabra isn't the same thing as a non-Jewish family calling the menorah in their home that they light, but not in celebration of Channukah a candelabra. That would be like me telling a Christian that their own tree isn't a Christmas tree, which I have never suggested at all.

stacey wrote: [quote=LongTimeSloper]I have never known one Jewish family to have a Hanukah bush.

While my mom was Catholic and my dad was Jewish we were raised in the Catholic religion. When my dad's family came over around Christmas he called our tree the Hanukah bush.

Carnivore wrote: And if you don't celebrate Channukah and want to call your menorah a candelabra, I can guarantee you that Jews are not going to take offense.

When I called it a candelabra in front of my dad's Jewish family you would have thought I cursed! They were very offended that me, having a Jewish family, would call it that. To which my oh so fabulous big sister said "well you always tell us since our Mom is not Jewish neither are we so why do you care now?"

Then again we were that type of family to bust my father's family's balls.

Now what do you call a tree that you hang bacon from?

(A Carni tree)

Stacey, I am from the same exact background as you!

And, my Jewish MIL has called it a Hanukah bush also, but did she ever have such a thing in her house? Has anyone else in my family or my husband's family ever had one? No. that is all i said, I have never known anyone personally amongst my family, my in laws, my Jewish friends and co workers to ever have something called a Hanukah bush in their house.

Carnivore wrote: [quote=LongTimeSloper]No, not really, we all just like to argue! LOL

I couldn't imagine this group getting together in person! OY!

You should come out! It will be fun.

Beer will smooth over all the rough edges.


I bet you are a riot with a few beers in you

LongTimeSloper wrote: I bet you are a riot with a few beers in you

You already said I was a riot before and I didn't have any beers in me!

LongTimeSloper wrote: You are a riot, you really are!

LongTimeSloper wrote:

Stacey, I am from the same exact background as you!

And, my Jewish MIL has called it a Hanukah bush also, but did she ever have such a thing in her house? Has anyone else in my family or my husband's family ever had one? No. that is all i said, I have never known anyone personally amongst my family, my in laws, my Jewish friends and co workers to ever have something called a Hanukah bush in their house.

No I agree with you I was just giving an example of when a tree might be called a Hanukah bush

Subject: where the Vermont trees are

Hey, I have actual information about getting trees (call 'em what you will) -- although first I must say that you guys have much better conversations than the silliness that pretends to be posting down here in Philly. Sigh.

Now, as to the trees: quick link: http://greenvermont.blogspot.com

Version readable here: many of the Vermont tree spots are from the same terrific guy. Very fresh, organically grown, great people selling them. Yes, he's my friend, what do you think?

Five locations: at the Park Slope Food Co-op
Church of St. Ann of the Holy Trinity (Brooklyn Heights)
Christ Church (Cobble Hill)
Cadman Church (Clinton Hill)
Holy Name of Jesus Christ Church Baseball Field (Windsor Terrace)

Enjoy.

I believe that was a reference to Mr. and Mrs. Claus von Bülow. :twisted:

BigGuy wrote:

And if they call the holiday Christmas (without actually worshiping), why can't it be called a Christmas tree?

This is the whole point. Of course it can be called a Christmas tree. But you have to understand that some people might not think of it the same way, and if they relate to their tree differently, that's their business. I think anyone insisting otherwise is in the position of the aggressor.

I also think that anyone trying to keep our traditions from evolving in this country is going to be in for a bumpy 21st century.

Ok, this is a problem.
Here is how I see it....and I believe this is fact due to the massive amount of time this has been going on.

It's def a Christmas tree. It's a christian holiday and it's celebrated every year. It has gotten so big and commercial that stores/government/corporation celebrate it and give vacation days for it.

Others come in and like this holiday. It's very "merry", to risk using a specific word for it

BUT, they do not celebrate Christmas themselves. So what do they do?
The do the EXACT same activities that those who celebrate Christmas do (buy presents, ice skate, go look at the tree in RFC, etc etc) *BUT* refuse to call it christmas.

On top of that, they are now "offended" that the word "Christmas" is displayed all over the place. So they push for their "beliefs" (that dont even exist...a holiday tree is pretty much make believe) and in this new PC world, the minority wins. Yah, it's a PC world and those who dont celebrate Christmas are the minority since Christians populate most of the country.

So now we have people who like our holiday, but dont want to call it that, essentially STEALING what we had and renaming it.

Is that like pics or they don't exist?

Holy fuckbubbles this thread is a clusterfuck.

Hitokiri, you don't seem to get it:

Christians appropriated the "Christmas tree" from pagans who had celebrated trees in their late-December holiday for hundreds or thousands of years before there were any Christians. The holiday tree is simply not original to Christianity.

No matter how successful Christians may have been in dressing up the pagan tree in the trappings of Christianity, they do not own any exclusive rights in the tree or its use at at Christmas time.

If Christians want to decorate a tree at Christmas time, and to call it a Christmas tree, no one has any objection to that.

If non-Christians want to decorate a tree at the time of the winter solstice, Hannukka, Kwanza, etc., and to call it a "tree" or a "holiday tree" or a "Hanukka Bush", they have every right to do so.