Hot/Neutral reverse
Hi,
We're buying a new construction. We had our first walk through last week. We took a Sperry Instruments GCFI Outlet Tester with us and tested every outlet in the condo. All the outlet in the two bedrooms showed as hot/neutral reverse. Of course we noted this on the punchlist. Subsequently, the real estate agent has told us that the wiring is correct but that the sponsor has advised that there is a specific reason why the tester shows a false result. The real estate agent did not understand the technical explanation and could not communicate it to us. We've asked that the explanation be provided in writing. Does anyone on Brooklynian know why a new condo, wired to code, would show a false hot/neutral reverse result on a tester? I've had no luck with searching on the internet.
We're buying a new construction. We had our first walk through last week. We took a Sperry Instruments GCFI Outlet Tester with us and tested every outlet in the condo. All the outlet in the two bedrooms showed as hot/neutral reverse. Of course we noted this on the punchlist. Subsequently, the real estate agent has told us that the wiring is correct but that the sponsor has advised that there is a specific reason why the tester shows a false result. The real estate agent did not understand the technical explanation and could not communicate it to us. We've asked that the explanation be provided in writing. Does anyone on Brooklynian know why a new condo, wired to code, would show a false hot/neutral reverse result on a tester? I've had no luck with searching on the internet.
Comments
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The false positive excuse sounds like bullshit. Usually that just means that someone installed the wall socket incorrectly, although it is certainly odd that it happened with every socket in the apartment. Maybe there is some technical reason that they are like that, but incompetence is far more likely.
Fortunately the fix is usually easy. Remove the socket, unscrew the wires, and switch them. If you aren't especially manly, then you would also want to shut off the power first.
Regardless of what the problem is, the builder needs to fix it before you take possession. It isn't safe to have reversed outlets. -
The false positive excuse sounds like bullshit. Usually that just means that someone installed the wall socket incorrectly, although it is certainly odd that it happened with every socket in the apartment. Maybe there is some technical reason that they are like that, but incompetence is far more likely.
Fortunately the fix is usually easy. Remove the socket, unscrew the wires, and switch them. If you aren't especially manly, then you would also want to shut off the power first.
Regardless of what the problem is, the builder needs to fix it before you take possession. It isn't safe to have reversed outlets. -
bohuma, take my word for it. they are bullshitting you.
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bohuma, take my word for it. they are bullshitting you.
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my last apartment in chicago was like that. found out when installing a light fixture. sucked.
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my last apartment in chicago was like that. found out when installing a light fixture. sucked.
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Offhand, it sounds like the same idiot installed all of the outlets in those two bedrooms. Not to be too alarmist, but it's a little hard for someone who actually has a clue about electrical installation to screw that up: the black wire goes on the brass screw (hot wire), the white wire goes on the sliver screw (neutral wire). Get it backwards, and you're potentially leaving a fatal shock hazard behind for your new homeowner to find someday.
I would strongly suggest you hire a third-party licensed electrician to inspect the whole electrical system before you accept the property. The hot/neutral reversal is a serious issue in itself, but it could also be a warning of other more serious errors in the installation. -
Offhand, it sounds like the same idiot installed all of the outlets in those two bedrooms. Not to be too alarmist, but it's a little hard for someone who actually has a clue about electrical installation to screw that up: the black wire goes on the brass screw (hot wire), the white wire goes on the sliver screw (neutral wire). Get it backwards, and you're potentially leaving a fatal shock hazard behind for your new homeowner to find someday.
I would strongly suggest you hire a third-party licensed electrician to inspect the whole electrical system before you accept the property. The hot/neutral reversal is a serious issue in itself, but it could also be a warning of other more serious errors in the installation. -
It is likely you have AFCI's circuit breakers installed in the bedrooms not GFCI's. GFCI's are intended for wet areas or basements. There are different meters for checking these. I'm not sure how a GFCI meter responds to a AFCI circuit, and if your result actually showed a reversal or the lack of a ground connection. There seems some controversy over how well these meters work.
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It is likely you have AFCI's circuit breakers installed in the bedrooms not GFCI's. GFCI's are intended for wet areas or basements. There are different meters for checking these. I'm not sure how a GFCI meter responds to a AFCI circuit, and if your result actually showed a reversal or the lack of a ground connection. There seems some controversy over how well these meters work.
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the "Sperry Instruments GFCI Outlet Tester" the op mentioned is one of those generic 3-prong outlet testers with LED's and a truth-table printed on it (and a GFCI tester button)....it shows lights in a pattern of "off/green/off" for a properly wired outlet, "yellow/off/red" for hot/neutral reversal.
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the "Sperry Instruments GFCI Outlet Tester" the op mentioned is one of those generic 3-prong outlet testers with LED's and a truth-table printed on it (and a GFCI tester button)....it shows lights in a pattern of "off/green/off" for a properly wired outlet, "yellow/off/red" for hot/neutral reversal.
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squindar wrote: I would strongly suggest you hire a third-party licensed electrician to inspect the whole electrical system before you accept the property. The hot/neutral reversal is a serious issue in itself, but it could also be a warning of other more serious errors in the installation.
Probably what you said about potential other problems is the main consideration. If the wires are reversed, that is fixable. If the hot wire is the white wire, that is considered criminal. It's not that hard to explain the difference between "ground fault" and "arc fault". I don't know how a GF tester would respond to the AF circuit however. I think the AF breaker has a extra wire going to the buss. If that is what it is. Can't think of any other excuse as to why the GF tester doesn't show correct lights.
Definitely the best advice is to get a independent electrician to check. -
squindar wrote: I would strongly suggest you hire a third-party licensed electrician to inspect the whole electrical system before you accept the property. The hot/neutral reversal is a serious issue in itself, but it could also be a warning of other more serious errors in the installation.
Probably what you said about potential other problems is the main consideration. If the wires are reversed, that is fixable. If the hot wire is the white wire, that is considered criminal. It's not that hard to explain the difference between "ground fault" and "arc fault". I don't know how a GF tester would respond to the AF circuit however. I think the AF breaker has a extra wire going to the buss. If that is what it is. Can't think of any other excuse as to why the GF tester doesn't show correct lights.
Definitely the best advice is to get a independent electrician to check. -
modsquad wrote: It is likely you have AFCI's circuit breakers installed in the bedrooms not GFCI's. GFCI's are intended for wet areas or basements. There are different meters for checking these. I'm not sure how a GFCI meter responds to a AFCI circuit, and if your result actually showed a reversal or the lack of a ground connection. There seems some controversy over how well these meters work.
When I was doing the walkthrough on Monday, the sponsor's agent said something about ACFI, now the penny has dropped. There are two different circuit types GFCI and AFCI. From what I've read on Wikipedia and other sites, a GFCI Tester is not reliable for testing an AFCI circuit, and that there is no portable tester, there are portable indicators, however. The electrician and general contractor were going through today and were to rectify any issues.
Thanks for all the feedback. -
modsquad wrote: It is likely you have AFCI's circuit breakers installed in the bedrooms not GFCI's. GFCI's are intended for wet areas or basements. There are different meters for checking these. I'm not sure how a GFCI meter responds to a AFCI circuit, and if your result actually showed a reversal or the lack of a ground connection. There seems some controversy over how well these meters work.
When I was doing the walkthrough on Monday, the sponsor's agent said something about ACFI, now the penny has dropped. There are two different circuit types GFCI and AFCI. From what I've read on Wikipedia and other sites, a GFCI Tester is not reliable for testing an AFCI circuit, and that there is no portable tester, there are portable indicators, however. The electrician and general contractor were going through today and were to rectify any issues.
Thanks for all the feedback. -
What language are you speaking here?? :?
No freakin' idea what you're going on about!
Once again I'm amazed at the scope of the Brooklynian community. So even though I haven't got a clue what this is about, I'm pleased you seem to have found your answer.
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What language are you speaking here?? :?
No freakin' idea what you're going on about!
Once again I'm amazed at the scope of the Brooklynian community. So even though I haven't got a clue what this is about, I'm pleased you seem to have found your answer. -
nomad wrote: What language are you speaking here?? :?
you know how the cord of your lamp looks like two wires running next to each other? that's because it is two wires, each of which goes from one of the plug-prongs to a particular side of the socket where you screw the bulb in.
No freakin' idea what you're going on about!
Once again I'm amazed at the scope of the Brooklynian community. So even though I haven't got a clue what this is about, I'm pleased you seem to have found your answer.
one is called hot, the other neutral, and the difference matters. it matters a lot more in a house.
more to the point, if the yahoo wiring your house can't tell the two apart, lord knows what else he hasn't done. -
nomad wrote: What language are you speaking here?? :?
you know how the cord of your lamp looks like two wires running next to each other? that's because it is two wires, each of which goes from one of the plug-prongs to a particular side of the socket where you screw the bulb in.
No freakin' idea what you're going on about!
Once again I'm amazed at the scope of the Brooklynian community. So even though I haven't got a clue what this is about, I'm pleased you seem to have found your answer.
one is called hot, the other neutral, and the difference matters. it matters a lot more in a house.
more to the point, if the yahoo wiring your house can't tell the two apart, lord knows what else he hasn't done. -
Some of us can still roll Old School! -
Some of us can still roll Old School! -
correct, AFCI = Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter and GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. AFCI is newer technology, whereas GFCI's have been required in locations like bathrooms for a long time (you'll see an outlet with a test button on it). Under certain codes AFCI is now required to be employed in, for instance, bedroom branch circuits. You are likely to have a combo of both in your new construction/rehab -- IF the contractor is building to code.
They're incorrect, though, about no testers for AFCI. I've seen a couple of different AFCI testers and also combo AFCI/GFCI testers. Just because they haven't bothered to buy one yet doesn't mean they aren't out there ;-) -
correct, AFCI = Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter and GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. AFCI is newer technology, whereas GFCI's have been required in locations like bathrooms for a long time (you'll see an outlet with a test button on it). Under certain codes AFCI is now required to be employed in, for instance, bedroom branch circuits. You are likely to have a combo of both in your new construction/rehab -- IF the contractor is building to code.
They're incorrect, though, about no testers for AFCI. I've seen a couple of different AFCI testers and also combo AFCI/GFCI testers. Just because they haven't bothered to buy one yet doesn't mean they aren't out there ;-) -
You should always hire an engineer to inspect the place before buying anyway, and they'll test the outlets for you.
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You should always hire an engineer to inspect the place before buying anyway, and they'll test the outlets for you.
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Subject: i'm not amazed, i'm annoyed
i'm not amazed
i'm annoyed
this is a board for neighborhood issues
a problem with a socket that is in a building in the neighborhood does not qualify
there's a nail in my hardwood floor that keeps popping up
for the love of god...someone...PLEASE...tell me how to solve my personal nail sticking up problemnomad wrote: What language are you speaking here?? :?
No freakin' idea what you're going on about!
Once again I'm amazed at the scope of the Brooklynian community. So even though I haven't got a clue what this is about, I'm pleased you seem to have found your answer. -
Subject: Re: i'm not amazed, i'm annoyed
elitt wrote: i'm not amazed
You could try sitting on it
i'm annoyed
this is a board for neighborhood issues
a problem with a socket that is in a building in the neighborhood does not qualify
there's a nail in my hardwood floor that keeps popping up
for the love of god...someone...PLEASE...tell me how to solve my personal nail sticking up problem -
I would suggest trying a Stanley Nail Set. And then sitting on it.
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