Peds v Cars: SPLIT from Person Hit By Vehicle Monday
ericrochow wrote: a pedestrian crossing between cars on Carroll above 8th ave was hit by a car turning from 8th ave onto carroll .How do you turn the corner of Carroll and 8th so fast that you run full on into someone crossing just 15-20 feet from the corner? These drivers are fucking maniacs.
i'm told the driver of the car was visibly shaken. the car's windshield was shattered. the police were there taking photos, etc for most of the day
MOD NOTE: this discussion evolved out of the thread Person Hit By Vehicle Monday at Carroll and Eighth Ave, and so was split off.
Comments
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Wouldn't walking out from between parked cars kind of make this the pedestrians fault?
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Carmen wrote: Wouldn't walking out from between parked cars kind of make this the pedestrians fault?
well, it's not always a good idea, clearly but legally the onus is on the driver not to hit things. -
Well obviously but I can tell you from personal experience that driving in the city (bk included) is absolute hell and lots and LOTS of pedestrians don't look both ways before crossing a street, jaywalk between parked cars, ride bikes at night wearing all black, etc. Park slope in particular has an awesome habit of strollers out into the street past the curb to look for oncoming cars...so if I hit you I'll get your baby first!
Im just saying to be careful. I have a lot more sympathy for drivers now that I've become one and deal with the gauntlet that is NYC driving. -
There are lots of stupid people in New York. Some of them drive, some of them walk, some of them bike.
The only universally douchey group is unicyclists. Seriously, wtf? -
Mougar wrote: There are lots of stupid people in New York. Some of them drive, some of them walk, some of them bike.
The only universally douchey group is unicyclists. Seriously, wtf?
can I add tall bikers to that group? seriously, why?
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Carmen wrote: Well obviously but I can tell you from personal experience that driving in the city (bk included) is absolute hell and lots and LOTS of pedestrians don't look both ways before crossing a street, jaywalk between parked cars, ride bikes at night wearing all black, etc. Park slope in particular has an awesome habit of strollers out into the street past the curb to look for oncoming cars...so if I hit you I'll get your baby first!
oh yea, on the rare occasions when I drive I am amazed at how oblivious people are to the danger they put themselves in so nonchalantly.
Im just saying to be careful. I have a lot more sympathy for drivers now that I've become one and deal with the gauntlet that is NYC driving. -
Carmen wrote: Wouldn't walking out from between parked cars kind of make this the pedestrians fault?
That's ridiculous. Unless this businessman darted out from between the cars like a wild dog, there's no reason why the driver shouldn't have seen him if they were being duly alert.
I've never understood how drivers hit people/animals walking across the street when they're plainly visible from more than a block or even more, e.g., how people are always getting hit on Queens Blvd. It's like people go into a daze or something when they're behind the wheel. -
Carmen wrote: [quote=Mougar]The only universally douchey group is unicyclists. Seriously, wtf?
can I add tall bikers to that group? seriously, why?
Ok, just about any bike "alternative" can be added to that group. That includes tricycles, recumbents, and the worst of them all:
The dreaded p-far! -
Carmen wrote: [quote=Mougar]There are lots of stupid people in New York. Some of them drive, some of them walk, some of them bike.
The only universally douchey group is unicyclists. Seriously, wtf?
can I add tall bikers to that group? seriously, why?
i think the tall bikes are pretty cool. as to why, well, they are better to joust with than standard sized bikes. some claim they are safer because you are more visible to drivers. -
vidro3 wrote: [quote=Carmen][quote=Mougar]There are lots of stupid people in New York. Some of them drive, some of them walk, some of them bike.
The only universally douchey group is unicyclists. Seriously, wtf?
can I add tall bikers to that group? seriously, why?
i think the tall bikes are pretty cool. as to why, well, they are better to joust with than standard sized bikes. some claim they are safer because you are more visible to drivers.
my bf does that jousting, gives me a heart attack. -
Obamanut wrote: [quote=Carmen]Wouldn't walking out from between parked cars kind of make this the pedestrians fault?
That's ridiculous. Unless this businessman darted out from between the cars like a wild dog, there's no reason why the driver shouldn't have seen him if they were being duly alert.
I've never understood how drivers hit people/animals walking across the street when they're plainly visible from more than a block or even more, e.g., how people are always getting hit on Queens Blvd. It's like people go into a daze or something when they're behind the wheel.
I've seen it happen more than once where it clearly was not the driver's fault. At the corner of Nostrand and Eastern Parkway I see people step off the curb into the street all the time without looking to see that there is a car bearing down on them. A driver doing 25 or even 15 can't stop if someone steps off the curb directly into a lane of moving traffic.
I was actually in a car with a girlfriend of mine many moons ago when we were in bumper-to-bumper traffic on Atlantic Ave and a guy managed to walk in front of her car. We were at the corner of Atlantic and 3rd around 3pm in the afternoon when a guy comes lurching out of the bar. He stepped off the curb at a green light and then walked in front of a car that was not moving. He stoped in between the first and second lane of traffic and stood there kind of weaving (we found out later he had been drinking since early that morning). The car in front of her started to pull forward, she started moving as well and the drunk guy fell/threw himself forward and onto the hood and then windshield of her car. He sort of rolled up the windshield then slid down off the passenger side, taking the rear-view mirror off with him.
She immediately became frantic, thinking she had killed this poor soul. We pulled the car over and went inside the bar to call the cops. The police showed up a couple of minutes later and asked how we managed to hit the guy when litterally only 1-2 cars were able to get through the intersection before the light changed. A couple of eyewitnesses explained and the cops actually wrote in the police report that we were hit by a pedestrian walking. I think the guy ended up with a broken nose and some pretty bad bruises, but he walked away otherwise unscathed. -
if someone is standing between two parked SUVs there is no way for a driver to see he or she. I've actually had people walk into my car before when I was coming up on a red light- this chick did exactly that and literally walked into my passenger side door. Scared the living shit out of me, and if she had been a second earlier I would have hit her going about 10mph which I imagine would cause some damage. Who's fault is that?
Other times people make eye contact with me, as a driver, having right of way and then continue to step out on to the street. Pedestrians are NOT as vigilant as they should be. No one deserves to get hit but I drive in fear of hitting and hurting someone...I don't know how I could live with myself if I seriously injured someone, even if it wasnt my fault. -
vidro3 wrote: [quote=Obamanut]The ferocity of the drivers in North Park Slope during the commuting hours, especially the morning, is completely out of control.
now that is something we can agree on
Agreed! -
Carmen wrote: if someone is standing between two parked SUVs there is no way for a driver to see he or she. I've actually had people walk into my car before when I was coming up on a red light- this chick did exactly that and literally walked into my passenger side door. Scared the living shit out of me, and if she had been a second earlier I would have hit her going about 10mph which I imagine would cause some damage. Who's fault is that?
Carmen, I wouldn't worry about being at fault. The NYPD, along with the NY DA's offices seem to have a pathological resistance to arresting drivers in accidents involving dead pedestrians, regardless of how reckless they are. Only if the driver is drunk, or the victim happens to be a cop, will they arrest & prosecute. Look at those poor children in Chinatown last week for a prime example of this. Last I checked, that driver didn't even get a ticket for illegally double-parking his van (I guess since he left it running & in gear, it wasn't "parking".)
Other times people make eye contact with me, as a driver, having right of way and then continue to step out on to the street. Pedestrians are NOT as vigilant as they should be. No one deserves to get hit but I drive in fear of hitting and hurting someone...I don't know how I could live with myself if I seriously injured someone, even if it wasnt my fault.
As for driver/pedestrian behavior. Yes, pedestrians in NYC are less respectful of traffic than they should be, but let's be honest about things - as mentioned before, traffic in the North Slope, *especially* during rush hour, is dangerous as hell. People accelerate through yellow lights on a near-constant basis, and generally don't pay attention.
My wife and I nearly got run over last year while crossing Union Street & 5th avenue by a thirtysomething woman in an SUV (with her daughter). It was dark, raining, around 7pm in the wintertime. We were crossing with the light. She was making the left from 5th avenue, and floored it through the intersection. While she zoomed by (less than a foot to spare), my wife whacked her precious SUV with her umbrella, causing the woman to stop, get out, and run down the block to yell at us for hitting her valuable car. Pardon us for being more than a little offended by that one.
Her excuse for zooming through the intersection? She was afraid of getting hit by oncoming traffic. So focused on oncoming traffic that rather than wait for the light to turn, she zoomed through a crowded crosswalk without looking.
We did everything properly, and nearly ended up as statistics due to a self-absorbed mom who wasn't paying attention.
Forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to drivers who complain about pedestrians. I am a driver, I have been one for nearly 20 years, and I'm more than happy to give pedestrians their space. A driver's license, along with car ownership, is a responsibility, not a right. Every accident (and crash) has many contributing factors, but you're the one moving two tons of steel around at 20+ mph - the onus is on you to avoid people. Deal with it. -
swngnmonk wrote:
Exactly. I've had the same experience as you describe more than once.
Forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to drivers who complain about pedestrians. I am a driver, I have been one for nearly 20 years, and I'm more than happy to give pedestrians their space. A driver's license, along with car ownership, is a responsibility, not a right. Every accident (and crash) has many contributing factors, but you're the one moving two tons of steel around at 20+ mph - the onus is on you to avoid people. Deal with it. -
Just saw a pedestrian on 7th Ave. cross Union Street on the red light completely obliviously. She did not even look in either direction, just kept walking right across. Another pedestrian and I - a complete stranger - looked at one another and shook our heads after she made it across safely. Fortunately nothing happened, but it would totally have been the pedestrian's fault - she just walked across the street without turning her head or hesitating. Personally, no matter who is at fault, getting run over totally ruins my day...
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Mougar wrote: There are lots of stupid people in New York. Some of them drive, some of them walk, some of them bike.
I couldn't agree more. The level of stupidity combined with a lack of respect for others is at an all time high. My wife complains about my road rage and she is right but I can not help becoming furious when there are so many people doing stupid and irresponsible things that put their own lives as well as mine and my passengers in jeopardy all over the roads. I could rant for days about this topic. I just wish the NYPD traffic vehicles were doing something more to enforce traffic rules and put a priority on catching overly aggressive drivers and reckless drivers and pedestrians. This is not just 8th Avenue or Park Slope or Brooklyn, this is going on all over the place and it is only going to get worse. I drove down 8th Ave and then a left on Union this morning about 9:15am and I could understand how something like this could happen, people are careless and selfish and all it takes is the wrong set of circumstances coming together for a really ugly accident. A person dies or is severely injured, a driver is traumatized, cops are spending time on an investigation to serve the insurance racket while they could be otherwise enforcing traffic rules and preventing accidents. Please people when you are driving or walking the streets have respect for others, try to follow the rules and pay attention to what is going on around you. -
Carmen wrote: Wouldn't walking out from between parked cars kind of make this the pedestrians fault?...
I completely disagree with this. I think the burden is on the people behind the wheel of the 4,000 POUND HUNK OF METAL. Obviously there are places where pedestrians need to exercise caution but jaywalking at 8th and Carroll should not cost somebody their life.
Well obviously but I can tell you from personal experience that driving in the city (bk included) is absolute hell and lots and LOTS of pedestrians don't look both ways before crossing a street, jaywalk between parked cars, ride bikes at night wearing all black, etc. Park slope in particular has an awesome habit of strollers out into the street past the curb to look for oncoming cars...so if I hit you I'll get your baby first!
Im just saying to be careful. I have a lot more sympathy for drivers now that I've become one and deal with the gauntlet that is NYC driving.
The Shared Space initiative in the EU is completely removing crosswalks, sidewalks and traffic lights and forcing cars, bikes and people to coexist at a slower but safer pace. Crazy to us SUV lovin, gun-toting mavericks in the US of A but something needs to change.
The internal combustion engine: killing the environment and 40,000 americans a year.
/end rant -
Carmen wrote: Wouldn't walking out from between parked cars kind of make this the pedestrians fault?
So if a pedestrian -- who is blind or has Alzheimer's dementia or is drunk or is disoriented from medication or has the limited intelligence of a child or is new to the community and unfamiliar with traffic patterns -- walks out from between parked cars I, as a driver, have the right to run the pedestrian over?
If I, as a driver, am not responsible for hitting humans that pop unexpectedly into the street, do I score extra points for hitting dogs, cats, and raccoons? -
Its not about having the right to hit someone...but if you cannot see a person and they jump in front of your car what exactly are you supposed to do?! Like I said, I've had a pedestrian walk INTO MY MOVING CAR before. How should you avoid that? Even the best most attentive driver can't always see pedestrians, and pedestrians in NYC seem excessively unaware of their surroundings sometimes (headphones, not looking both ways, jwalking between LARGE PARKED CARS. If you can't see me I can almost 100% guarantee i can't see you)
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Carmen wrote: Even the best most attentive driver can't always see pedestrians, and pedestrians in NYC seem excessively unaware of their surroundings sometimes (headphones, not looking both ways, jwalking between LARGE PARKED CARS.
Two more questions:
Why are cars so LARGE?
Why do SO many New York City residents drive cars in Manhattan and Brooklyn? Are the subways, buses, taxis, and sidewalks really that bad that every resident must own a personal vehicle to get around? -
raw wrote: [quote=Carmen]Even the best most attentive driver can't always see pedestrians, and pedestrians in NYC seem excessively unaware of their surroundings sometimes (headphones, not looking both ways, jwalking between LARGE PARKED CARS.
Two more questions:
Why are cars so LARGE?
Why do SO many New York City residents drive cars in Manhattan and Brooklyn? Are the subways, buses, taxis, and sidewalks really that bad that every resident must own a personal vehicle to get around?
1) I have no idea why cars are so large. Mine is not. I don't get SUVs and the like, especially here.
2) I have a car because I owned it when I moved here and the money I would make selling it is not worth trading the ability to escape the city when my sanity is at stake. I rarely drive in manhattan (actually, I think I've driven into the city to do errands once in the 3 years I've been here) but I like having it to go to home depot/ikea/big groceries and to travel outside of the city. Additionally, I fly out of newark quite often for my work and its generally a lot easier/more reliable (and cheaper) to drive there than to take public transit.
Anything else you'd like me to validate about my car ownership? -
Those of us who grew up outside of NYC became accustomed to the convenience of a car.
I have taken the subway back and forth to Manhattan virtually every weekday for over thirty years. On the weekends, the subway is the last thing I want to see. I want to be able to hop in my (smallish) car and run my errands in and out of the neighborhood and borough as I please.
I especially want to be able to leave the city, and to have a car wherever I'm going. -
I agree with Carmen. Jaywalking is illegal in NYC. Whether it is enforced is one thing but it's still illegal. Cars have rules and so do pedestrians, bikers do whatever they want. A car doing the speed limit on 8th avenue does not have enough time to stop when someone decides to pop out from between two cars. Even if the car does manage to stop suddenly he could cause another car or two or three to crash into him. Follow the rules and everyone will be safer. I think they taught that in first grade but I could be mistaken.
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raw wrote: [quote=Carmen]Even the best most attentive driver can't always see pedestrians, and pedestrians in NYC seem excessively unaware of their surroundings sometimes (headphones, not looking both ways, jwalking between LARGE PARKED CARS.
Two more questions:
Why are cars so LARGE?
Why do SO many New York City residents drive cars in Manhattan and Brooklyn? Are the subways, buses, taxis, and sidewalks really that bad that every resident must own a personal vehicle to get around?
Because it's our CHOICE to own and drive a car as large or as small as we want. Too damn bad if people don't like it. -
Danny Hellman wrote: Isn't Carroll & Eighth the very same intersection where a bicyclist, (a father of two, I think) was struck and killed a few months back?
Gee, how do fragile human being co-exist with swimming pools, bathtubs, airplanes, trains, mountains, motorcycles, bicycles...the list is endless.
It strikes me as so strange that in our culture, fragile human beings are expected to coexist safely with two ton metal projectiles. How many people die on the roads every day? And for what? Why do we choose to make a world where the simple act of crossing the street can be deadly? -
raw wrote: [quote=Carmen]Even the best most attentive driver can't always see pedestrians, and pedestrians in NYC seem excessively unaware of their surroundings sometimes (headphones, not looking both ways, jwalking between LARGE PARKED CARS.
Two more questions:
Why are cars so LARGE?
Why do SO many New York City residents drive cars in Manhattan and Brooklyn? Are the subways, buses, taxis, and sidewalks really that bad that every resident must own a personal vehicle to get around?
1. I used to have a SUV, I though I needed one because my wife was pregnant with twins. The SUV was totaled and we realized a sub-compact CIVIC is fine. The kids are 8 years old now and their feet still do not touch the floor.
2. My wife need a car to get to work. It takes less than 10 minutes by car or over an hour by subway - bus.
I wish we did not need the car and I an not going to start making up the reasons that other people need "LARGE CARS" -
Toyota doesn't make a Suburban. Just pointing that out.
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Seriously people, popping out from the middle of parked cars or walking blindly into car traffic will get you killed.
NOBODY is saying or implying that the driver of the car has the RIGHT to hit you - just that you may very well get hit. Even a small car traveling below the legal speed limit will seriously hurt you if not kill you.
Again, the driver has no RIGHT to hit you, but as a simple rule of physics, it takes a car weighing X exactly Y long to come to a complete stop.
A jaywalking pedestrian crossing from betw. parked vehicles when the nearest moving car is 50 or more yards away is a completely different scenario from someone popping in front of a moving car that is 10ft away. The pedestrian's gonna get hit.
Nobody wants to get hit by a car and nobody wants to hit and kill another being or animal with their car (psychos excepted, of course).
It's a shame about the poor man struck this morning. -
There is an equally idiotic contingent of cyclists in this neighborhood as well. A few months ago, I was crossing Eighth Avenue at around Lincoln with the signal when a twenty-something Asian guy (yuppie/hipster type) came flying down Eighth Ave on a ten-speed. Silly me, I thought it was a given that I had the right of way. Instead, he blew the light at top speed, and it turned into a game of chicken, with him blowing by me with inches to spare.
When I yelled after him "Are you fuckin' retarded?," he looked back at me all defensive and says "You should watch." I gave him the finger and told him to go fuck himself, and he tried to ride away glaring back at me, like he was tough.
Another time I was crossing the Prospect Park road as a grey-haired professional-type on rollerblades came flying down. When I walked in front of him (again, WITH the signal which he blew), he looked at me like I had just tried to run across the Prospect Expressway during rush hour. When I yelled after him, "Red light, buddy!!," he just looked at me with the same quizzical expression.
The arrogance and absence of common sense among these people is simply astounding.
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