am I the only 'woman of color' in the Slope who's not...
Comments
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It seems a bit insulting to call someone a narcissist, and not the kind of label to just throw around lightly. people stop listening to you when you insult them.
Also, kensingtonmom had said her nanny brought her own child to work. it seems kensingtonmom had given it alot of thought and it worked out really well for everyone. that's not very narcisistic. It was nice to hear.
i don't see any reason to criticize people who have nannies so they can work out. some people go a bit crazy just being at home all day with a child, it can be very isolating, and they probably just need an outlet. just seems like pointing the finger somewhere else. i'm not sure what the solution is, i have noticed of course that ps is a bit white.
meanwhile, being an artist is a real job, and not an easy one!! maybe we should all become docs & lawyers. that'd be fun. and actually nyc needs art. it's a huge market here and makes nyc more interesting for everyone... and i think the human race needs artists too, now more than ever. and rich people need art, or they'd have blank walls.
almost 1 of 4 african americans lives in poverty, at about 20K/year for 4 people. it's wrong. I wish people would stop blaming each other and blame the government. i probably sound very sanctimonious & left wing (I AM left wing & proud of it)
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findcate wrote: i probably sound very sanctimonious & left wing (I AM left wing & proud of it)
Yes, that is exactly how you sound. I don't think the other poster was specifically critical of any particular poster. I think she was articulating her observations about PS. Certainly, not everyone fits the mold she described, but enough do so that it is noticable - at least by some of us, blacks in particular. I also don't think she was intending to blame anyone for anything.
What I have a problem with, as illustrated by your post, is that somehow it is simply unacceptable to draw attention to the obvious racial and socio-economic changes that have taken place in PS, as if we should simply ignore it. -
whoa. actually, i said i noticed the whiteness of ps, and said what i thought was the real cause (probably moms hiring nannies aren't the real cause, and calling people narcissistic or materialistic probably doesn't help.) Of course people are materialistic, we all are. it's human nature, until we learn that we're all better off being unselfish (like kensingtonmom's post pointed out).
I certainly never said at all, and i don't think at all, that it was unacceptable of anyone to draw attention to the racial and socio-economic changes in ps or anywhere else! far from it. i just think it's not so helpful to insult people. it's a basic law of conversation. when you start insulting people you are talking at them, not with them.
anyway, the previous poster wasn't critical of any individual, of course, he just used generalizations and stereotypes that don't really help anyone.
did i mention that i'm proud to be left wing... -
findcate wrote: whoa. actually, i said i noticed the whiteness of ps, and said what i thought was the real cause (probably moms hiring nannies aren't the real cause, and calling people narcissistic or materialistic probably doesn't help.) Of course people are materialistic, we all are. it's human nature, until we learn that we're all better off being unselfish (like kensingtonmom's post pointed out).
Why exactly is being left-wing something to be proud of? I'm no conservative, but I just don't get this liberal-pride thing. Does it make you superior to people who do not fully subscribe to all your beliefs. Does it exempt you from normal prejudiuces or absolve you of "blame" (not that I'm blaming you for anything).
I certainly never said at all, and i don't think at all, that it was unacceptable of anyone to draw attention to the racial and socio-economic changes in ps or anywhere else! far from it. i just think it's not so helpful to insult people. it's a basic law of conversation. when you start insulting people you are talking at them, not with them.
anyway, the previous poster wasn't critical of any individual, of course, he just used generalizations and stereotypes that don't really help anyone.
did i mention that i'm proud to be left wing... -
I think too many people are reading too much into parents who have Carribean nannies. First of all to me the word "nanny" is a name I always associated with a grandparent (which I what I called my Grandma) and it brings me great memories to use the word. Therefore I choose to use nanny instead of caregiver (which to me sounds so cold).
Just like in any industry and/or office if you are looking for help you ask those in the field (i.e., I am a secretary and when someone is looking to hire a new secretary they always ask me "do you know someone"?) Of course I will recommend a friend of mine or a colleague. This is the same with nannies. The Carribean community in NYC are extremely close and tight knit so I can see how one nanny tells her friend about a new job opening up. Then that person hears about another job and tells her friend and so on and so on. If anyone notices most of the nannies stay in this neighborhood because the child they were caring for is now old enough to take care of themselves, or in school, etc. and the person they worked for then puts out the work that they are available. If anyone who subscribes to PHParents or PSParents groups will attest there seems to be a post about this once a week. Most parents would love to have a nanny who knows the neighborhood, already knows the schedules for the library, etc. and can get to work and home without too much trouble (i.e., a large number of Carribean people live in or around PS, CH & PH).
Just my 2 cents
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nope, there's no superiority thing. life is too short and the world is too complex... i did notice you said i did sound like a left winger at the start of your reply, in a very unfriendly way. so i just wanted to mention that yep, i'm proud of it and i don't lump it in with materialism, competitiveness, or whatever... i'm open to populism too. i'm a tree-hugger too. i love trees. which is one reason i live in ps.
anyway, yeah, i did everything i could to prevent the reelection of bush who lied to go to war in iraq and the administration that is creating more poverty, undermining our constitution, and ignoring the environment. we will be paying for it, and our basic services such as education will suffer. he'll be fine, though. i blame people for re-electing him. it's not a superiority thing. it's too painful for that. it's more like a sinking feeling in my stomach.
i have to say, i was amazed that you said my post illustrated intolerance. i thought yours did! i worked very hard to get where i am, and i would like to see others do well also... I was saying yes i agree that ps is a bit white, and that park slope is probably white because it's just a bigger problem than mom's who hire nannies here in ps so let's not blame each other, let's blame the government who should be doing something about poverty...(not that the nanny thing is a problem. i noticed it, and have been learning on this forum about how it is or isn't a problem.) -
A nanny is defined as "a child's nurse". The traditional nanny was a servant in a large household and reported directly to the lady of the house. Nannies were always female and this remained the case through the 20th Century.
The nanny in a great house ran her own tiny domain, supported by at least one nursery maid. Because of their role in child care, they were somewhat more indulged than junior servants. Nannies may have remained in the employ of the same aristocratic family for years, looking after successive generations of children.
There really is no denying the historical nanny/mammy dynamic.
Here's an interesting close-to-on-topic article from slate...
http://www.slate.com/id/2106128/
Also, what happens to all those low income people who are displaced by gentrification all over the fringes of the Slope? Hell I just read in the NYT that the South Bronx is the next big "it" neighborhood. Where, oh where, do all my brothas and sistas go? -
BSloper wrote: Why exactly is being left-wing something to be proud of? I'm no conservative, but I just don't get this liberal-pride thing. Does it make you superior to people who do not fully subscribe to all your beliefs. Does it exempt you from normal prejudiuces or absolve you of "blame" (not that I'm blaming you for anything).
I think we have to be proud of being left wing or "liberal" because the right wing Republicans have redefined "liberal" as something negative and weak. And we let them define us. Now most Americans see this wonderful tradition of liberalism--this open minded and tolerant tradition as wishy washy and because we are open minded we are defined as having no values. I think it is similar to the way that feminists took back words like bitch. Might as well claim these words back and make them our own. I too am proud to be a liberal and left winged. -
As a person of very left-leaning ideology I must tell you that I have abandoned any use of the Liberal label, just as I have any identification with the so-called Democratic party. Neither Liberals nor Democrats represent what I have always held sacred about indivual freedoms and government responsibility. Does anyone really think that the currently constructed middle-of-the-road, pro-war Democrats represent real liberal values? Does Hilary-go-Iraq-war-make-abortions-rare-Clinton make your spine tingle in anticipation of her ascendance to the throne?
I have abandoned the liberal label simply because the run-of-the-mill liberal is without solutions to our biggest societal problems. Whining is not providing answers.
So I have assumend a mantle of old - I am now an Evolved Anarchist - ready at a moments notice to overthrow this theocracy, but unwilling to harm blameless folks in the process. -
Also, what happens to all those low income people who are displaced by gentrification all over the fringes of the Slope?
I've often wondered this myself. How does anyone afford to live anywhere in this city. My wife and I are both professionals with advanced degrees. We're in a high income bracket. And yet... We live in mortal fear that we'll be forced to sell the apartment we just barely managed to buy if one of us lose our job, something that statistics say is highly likely. Don't even get me started on health insurance.
If well-to-do whites think they have problems, just think of all the people that actually make this city work, and worse, the number of unemployed or underemployed. The status of black men is this city should be an international disgrace, but you hardly hear it mentioned by members of our local government - at least the ones the press bothers to print.
Mayor Bloomberg's answer to all of this is to hand over tax dollars to real estate developers in exchange for unenforceable promises on affordable housing quotas and job creation. Funny that these are the only people who don't worry about little things like housing, employment, healt care and education. The Atlantic Yards project is pure puffery. South Brooklyn Legal Services estimates it will accelerate displacement in the surrounding area. The so-called community benefits "agreement" will permanently displace the poorest residents in the area, because they won't qualify for the "affordable" housing units that are currently proposed. Supposedly people who earn enough to qualify but will be forced out of their homes will have the difference in their rents covered by the developer until new units are built for them. Unfortunately, the agreement only covers 3 years and the developer says the affordable units won't be ready for 7 years. What the hell are these people supposed to do for 4 years? The job numbers are completely bogus. The jobs that come with the arena aren't even approaching living wage and the majority have already been promised to members of the union that currently holds these jobs in New Jersey.
I'm an upper middle class white invader, but gentrification is not a conspiracy. We just decided to settle in a neighborhood we liked and could afford. The displacement is the result of huge structural problems in our economy that "leaders" in both political parties keep ignoring, preferring to live in their comfortable, well-connected bubbles. We could show some leadership on this issue and enforce progressive zoning. We could raise income taxes on the wealthiest (raising property taxes will just be charged back to renters). We could require that real-estate developers and big retailers who acquire public land, get tax breaks or zoning variances be required to offer a SUBSTANTIAL anf ENFORCEABLE quid pro quo. If they violate the agreement then there are substantial penalties, including seizure of assets.
But we aren't showing any leadership. We're just letting the class system devolve into a caste system. The Brahmin kleptocrats who run this country are pitting all income groups below theirs against each other in a race to the bottom, and we're taking advantage of people's fear and ignorance. Both political parties are equally guilty, and they offer us nothing except competing slogans. The Repubs win because their slogan is "sit on your ass, do nothing, pay lower taxes and blame people you don't like when it doesn't work out like we promised."
The reason this all works is because we're all too focused on paying the mortgage or the rent to pay attention to what's going on. Even if we had time to pay attention, you'd be hard pressed to find any FACTS. The media are a complete joke.
Racism? It's probably worse than ever, and I say that as a middle aged white male. At first I was a little insulted by insinuations about Park Slopers, but for all I know it's true. I forget about little comments like "you ride the subway? Is that safe?" or "yeah that's an OK area, but I hate to say it, but there are a lot of [fill in ethnic group] people in that area."
I don't know how to fix any of this shit, but what we're doing isn't working.
I definitely think we need to find some common ground and quit lapsing into slugfests between the smugly self righteous and the self-righteoulsy smug.
In case you're wondering, I'm firmly in the self-righteously smug camp. -
Dope on the Slope wrote: Also, what happens to all those low income people who are displaced by gentrification all over the fringes of the Slope?
there are still other parts of the borough where you can get 3 bedrooms for less than 1k a month. they have places to goto. just not places people with high degrees
I've often wondered this myself. How does anyone afford to live anywhere in this city. My wife and I are both professionals with advanced degrees. We're in a high income bracket. And yet... We live in mortal fear that we'll be forced to sell the apartment we just barely managed to buy if one of us lose our job, something that statistics say is highly likely. Don't even get me started on health insurance.
If well-to-do whites think they have problems, just think of all the people that actually make this city work, and worse, the number of unemployed or underemployed. The status of black men is this city should be an international disgrace, but you hardly hear it mentioned by members of our local government - at least the ones the press bothers to print.
Mayor Bloomberg's answer to all of this is to hand over tax dollars to real estate developers in exchange for unenforceable promises on affordable housing quotas and job creation. Funny that these are the only people who don't worry about little things like housing, employment, healt care and education. The Atlantic Yards project is pure puffery. South Brooklyn Legal Services estimates it will accelerate displacement in the surrounding area. The so-called community benefits "agreement" will permanently displace the poorest residents in the area, because they won't qualify for the "affordable" housing units that are currently proposed. Supposedly people who earn enough to qualify but will be forced out of their homes will have the difference in their rents covered by the developer until new units are built for them. Unfortunately, the agreement only covers 3 years and the developer says the affordable units won't be ready for 7 years. What the hell are these people supposed to do for 4 years? The job numbers are completely bogus. The jobs that come with the arena aren't even approaching living wage and the majority have already been promised to members of the union that currently holds these jobs in New Jersey.
I'm an upper middle class white invader, but gentrification is not a conspiracy. We just decided to settle in a neighborhood we liked and could afford. The displacement is the result of huge structural problems in our economy that "leaders" in both political parties keep ignoring, preferring to live in their comfortable, well-connected bubbles. We could show some leadership on this issue and enforce progressive zoning. We could raise income taxes on the wealthiest (raising property taxes will just be charged back to renters). We could require that real-estate developers and big retailers who acquire public land, get tax breaks or zoning variances be required to offer a SUBSTANTIAL anf ENFORCEABLE quid pro quo. If they violate the agreement then there are substantial penalties, including seizure of assets.
But we aren't showing any leadership. We're just letting the class system devolve into a caste system. The Brahmin kleptocrats who run this country are pitting all income groups below theirs against each other in a race to the bottom, and we're taking advantage of people's fear and ignorance. Both political parties are equally guilty, and they offer us nothing except competing slogans. The Repubs win because their slogan is "sit on your ass, do nothing, pay lower taxes and blame people you don't like when it doesn't work out like we promised."
The reason this all works is because we're all too focused on paying the mortgage or the rent to pay attention to what's going on. Even if we had time to pay attention, you'd be hard pressed to find any FACTS. The media are a complete joke.
Racism? It's probably worse than ever, and I say that as a middle aged white male. At first I was a little insulted by insinuations about Park Slopers, but for all I know it's true. I forget about little comments like "you ride the subway? Is that safe?" or "yeah that's an OK area, but I hate to say it, but there are a lot of [fill in ethnic group] people in that area."
I don't know how to fix any of this shit, but what we're doing isn't working.
I definitely think we need to find some common ground and quit lapsing into slugfests between the smugly self righteous and the self-righteoulsy smug.
In case you're wondering, I'm firmly in the self-righteously smug camp.
goto. try brownsville or east new york. -
and really, who among us wouldn't want to live in bucolic east new york?
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Livetotravel wrote:
I'm not sure how that's on topic. Most families who employ nannies are not actually rich. I certainly never had to worry about my 3-year-old "go[ing] on about motor boats, preschool, lake houses, Vietnamese food, and skiing at Steamboat Springs" or referring to chicken noodle soup as the "first course." Come on. When I started back to work, most of my salary went to pay the nanny, and that is a very common situation.
Here's an interesting close-to-on-topic article from slate...
http://www.slate.com/id/2106128/ -
hmmmm - didn't I actually say close-to-on-topic?
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Livetotravel wrote: hmmmm - didn't I actually say close-to-on-topic?
I just don't understand how an essay by a woman who states that she resents her children because they are growing up rich is relevant to the topics being discussed in this thread. You made reference to the "historical nanny/mammy dynamic" and then linked to this article, which didn't even mention nannies as I recall. -
sweet tea wrote: and really, who among us wouldn't want to live in bucolic east new york?
They won't be opening a Whole Foods or doggy bakery or overpriced deli in that nabe anytime soon. Do they even have white people there? Any people with advanced degrees? -
Earlier today I met a real, live black man who lives in Park Slope and has done for about two years and doesn't hate the neighborhood or consider it "for white people only". He kindly helped me carry my shopping bags. He said that he grew up in the Projects over in Fort Greene. We got talking about rents and he asked what rent I pay and I told him and he asked me how anyone could afford such high rent (and mine's not even that high - $1800-ish). He rents too and only half a block from me. He claims his rent is less than half of what I'm paying!! How can that even be possible. We're in the north slope area, he's just off 6th Ave and I'm just off 5th. I consider my apartment to actually be worth $2400+ - its freshly renovated, has 1 big bedroom, huge kitchen, a good sized study AND an extra bedroom/den.
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If anything there are lots of overinvolved Stay at home moms in the slope who also employ a nanny in order to go work out).
This is totally going off-topic and I really hate the stay-at-home-mom vs. working mom debate. But I wanted to know what constitutes an "overinvolved" SAHM? I mean, they are our children, why shouldn't we be as involved as we can be? Yes, as they grow older we have to give them space to become who they are, but as infants and toddlers and even young kids I don't see how we can be overinvolved. Attitudes like this are the same as when SAHMs view full-time working mothers as handing off their kids to be raised by someone else.
Also, do you think SAHMs should not ever have any time for themselves? I am sorry that you ddid not have the option to stay at home if you wanted to, but just because other people can you shouldn't resent them for it. I have a sitter 2 mornings a week so I can do some grocery shopping, go to a drs appt, read books in the library for a couple of hours, and YES go to the gym. I was able to do some of those things with my baby and the others were left to the weekend, at the expense of quality time together as a family. But the main reason we hired the sitter was because I felt like I was going to really spiral into a deep depression that left my husband, myself and my daughter with some real scars.
I just found your comment very disturbing as maybe that's how some people would view me, but really they shouldn't judge unless they are in your shoes. -
xueling wrote: I have a sitter 2 mornings a week so I can do some grocery shopping, go to a drs appt, read books in the library for a couple of hours, and YES go to the gym.
You bring up a good point. From the tone of some of the threads (i.e., stroller haters, etc.) seems like a lot of PS neighbors are in a Catch 22 situation. Many people complain about the "stroller set" and screaming babies yet when a parent does the considerate thing people will call them over-involved. Xueling I say whatever is good for your family is what has to be done. -
Subject: Interesting
This whole topic is fascinating, but I'm not sure if it gets us anywhere.
As a black man in PH, I dont really spend much time thinking about what other people might "think my occupation is". I'm busy day to day, living my life, paying my bills, and doing my thing hanging with my friends, etc.
Is there some statistaical information that supports the anecdotal?
Are most nannies in PS black/carribean? Mexican? Chinese?
If so, how does this affect anyones life? If so, is one racist for making the assumption?
And I'll even go one even better:
If one IS ,in fact , racist in PS/PH for falsely "sighting a nannie " - who cares?
How does this affect me?...Well, it doesn't. I'm not that fragile.
If someone asks if I am a nannie, I would say - "No, but it sounds like a great profession, good luck", and then move on...with MY life...
AndAlso : Anyone who thinks black people living where they want and can afford is selling out is "keeping it real" : REAL DUMB.
We really have to get out of 1958 people.
"American Racism" and "false nannie sightings" are not preventing people from acheiving anything en masse in 2006. I know that was NOT the intent of the post but all this liberal guilt and hand wringing over nothing is killing me. -
xueling wrote: If anything there are lots of overinvolved Stay at home moms in the slope who also employ a nanny in order to go work out).
I didn't mean to offend. But there is a certain type of high powered mother in park slope who has traded in a Type A job to become a high powered Type A mother. The type that hovers in the playground and knows every latest child rearing trend in order to produce the perfect offspring. i am surprised you haven't run into them? They constantly interfere and think that their choices are the last word in child rearing. God help us when these children become adults and think the world revolves around them--they've had parents running interference for them for 18 years--writing their school papers and pressuring teachers to up their grades.
This is totally going off-topic and I really hate the stay-at-home-mom vs. working mom debate.
I don't actually feel a conflict between SAHM and Working mothers. I am not resentful at all because I actually love working and think I am very fortunate to be able to work part time on a full time salary. I would not be happy being home full time nor would i be happy working 60 hours a week. I found what works for me and it seems you found what works for you, which is great.
Somehow this seems off topic to race and class? Unless you think I resent you because you can afford to stay home which would be class? Except that I don't. So we have veered into a new topic. -
Dope on the Slope wrote: Also, what happens to all those low income people who are displaced by gentrification all over the fringes of the Slope?
I hardly know where to begin with this outpouring of liberal guilt. Look dude, I'm telling you, as a black man, that the only people responsible for "the status of black men in NYC" is black men. We have to earn our own way, we have to be responsible for our families, we have to take ownership, we have to pull together and help each other. We have to make a difference on a personal level, one black kid, one black student, one black employee at a time. One-by-one. The state of our race is not an issue requiring some sweeping misdirected govt reform.
I've often wondered this myself. How does anyone afford to live anywhere in this city. My wife and I are both professionals with advanced degrees. We're in a high income bracket. And yet... We live in mortal fear that we'll be forced to sell the apartment we just barely managed to buy if one of us lose our job, something that statistics say is highly likely. Don't even get me started on health insurance.
If well-to-do whites think they have problems, just think of all the people that actually make this city work, and worse, the number of unemployed or underemployed. The status of black men is this city should be an international disgrace, but you hardly hear it mentioned by members of our local government - at least the ones the press bothers to print.
Mayor Bloomberg's answer to all of this is to hand over tax dollars to real estate developers in exchange for unenforceable promises on affordable housing quotas and job creation. Funny that these are the only people who don't worry about little things like housing, employment, healt care and education. The Atlantic Yards project is pure puffery. South Brooklyn Legal Services estimates it will accelerate displacement in the surrounding area. The so-called community benefits "agreement" will permanently displace the poorest residents in the area, because they won't qualify for the "affordable" housing units that are currently proposed. Supposedly people who earn enough to qualify but will be forced out of their homes will have the difference in their rents covered by the developer until new units are built for them. Unfortunately, the agreement only covers 3 years and the developer says the affordable units won't be ready for 7 years. What the hell are these people supposed to do for 4 years? The job numbers are completely bogus. The jobs that come with the arena aren't even approaching living wage and the majority have already been promised to members of the union that currently holds these jobs in New Jersey.
I'm an upper middle class white invader, but gentrification is not a conspiracy. We just decided to settle in a neighborhood we liked and could afford. The displacement is the result of huge structural problems in our economy that "leaders" in both political parties keep ignoring, preferring to live in their comfortable, well-connected bubbles. We could show some leadership on this issue and enforce progressive zoning. We could raise income taxes on the wealthiest (raising property taxes will just be charged back to renters). We could require that real-estate developers and big retailers who acquire public land, get tax breaks or zoning variances be required to offer a SUBSTANTIAL anf ENFORCEABLE quid pro quo. If they violate the agreement then there are substantial penalties, including seizure of assets.
But we aren't showing any leadership. We're just letting the class system devolve into a caste system. The Brahmin kleptocrats who run this country are pitting all income groups below theirs against each other in a race to the bottom, and we're taking advantage of people's fear and ignorance. Both political parties are equally guilty, and they offer us nothing except competing slogans. The Repubs win because their slogan is "sit on your ass, do nothing, pay lower taxes and blame people you don't like when it doesn't work out like we promised."
The reason this all works is because we're all too focused on paying the mortgage or the rent to pay attention to what's going on. Even if we had time to pay attention, you'd be hard pressed to find any FACTS. The media are a complete joke.
Racism? It's probably worse than ever, and I say that as a middle aged white male. At first I was a little insulted by insinuations about Park Slopers, but for all I know it's true. I forget about little comments like "you ride the subway? Is that safe?" or "yeah that's an OK area, but I hate to say it, but there are a lot of [fill in ethnic group] people in that area."
I don't know how to fix any of this shit, but what we're doing isn't working.
I definitely think we need to find some common ground and quit lapsing into slugfests between the smugly self righteous and the self-righteoulsy smug.
In case you're wondering, I'm firmly in the self-righteously smug camp.
We don't need your sympathy or guilt. I don't mean that in a nasty way. I'm glad you're concerned. But, I don't understand what you think the govt should be doing about it. All I want the govt to provide is a level playing field. There are, however, some things that you can do. Join a mentor program, volunteer, tutor, or take an interest in someone's career who might not have the kind of experience and access that perhaps you do.
And please, don't go down that raise taxes, income redistribution BS. All that does is drive away the wealthy folks and the firms that employ them (who both form the bulk of the NYC tax base). NYC has to compete for jobs, people, capital, etc. on a relative advantage basis. If you earn what you say you do, aren't you sick of seeing half your paycheck taken by the govt - income taxes, r.e. taxes, sales taxes, sewer taxes, fees, fees, everywhere, etc. I know I am. Why do you think you feel poor on a decent income. I'm disgusted. NYC is run poorly and inefficiently. That's where the money is going.
I could go on, but I've don't have the time. Race and class issues exist everywhere, including PS. But I'll grant that at least PS residents tend to care, even if they don't always get it right. -
Dope on the Slope,
I can feel some of your points - but others require more research.
You seem reasonable and realistic also and you are right, people are busy with their own lives and there are no easy fixes.
Black men are not doing themselves any favors - and that is the fault, in many cases, of Black men. The Million Man Marches and all of their press have done little to change that. The Post Civil Rights stagnation and "entitlement" schemes have kept us "mentally enslaved". Not to mention our political irrelevancy:
We always vote democratic( so the democrats ignore us), we never vote Republican (so the republicans ignore us). We are the most politically insignificant group in the country - if we even vote.
But I have to challenge you on the racism thing. Seriously, no one is being lynched, there are no Klan rallies, segregation is illegal, no where else on earth are the people more mixed together - take a walk to the Brooklyn Museum on a June First Saturday in Brooklyn. We need to stop it.
Will everyone like you? No. Must everyone like you? No.
We need to stop demanding "utopia" and "thougtht control"as a political position - because it can never be realized - and therefore can always be a demand. Ever since the late 60s after the successes of the civl rights era ( true changes), "protest" and "opposition" have become a persoanlity types and an END in and of themsleves - with no true purpose or counsel for change ( i.e.: Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton - can you name one piece of legistlation they have helped pass?).
Furthermore: "Black vs. White" is becomming more and more irrevlvant as a political stance as both races and others are starting to mix more and more. Not to mention the Latino and Asian mixing of populations.
Racism? I'm too busy to notice.
Black CEOs in 2005:
Kenneth Chenault, chairman and CEO, American Express
Aylwin Lewis, president and CEO, Kmart
Pamela Thomas-Graham, CEO and president, CNBC
Richard Parsons, chairman and CEO, Time Warner
Stanley O'Neal, chairman, CEO and president, Merrill Lynch & Co
John Thompson, chairman and CEO of Symantec
Chuck Phillips, co-president Oracle
Myrtle Potter, a president at biotech company Genentech
You may have heard of a few of these too...
Colin Powell....Condoleeza Rice....Tiger Woods...OPRAH....Russel Simmons, Didn't Denzel and Halle win oscars recently...?
Is there racism? sure.
Is it the same as 1935...?....
Do I care? No, becuae I am too busy!
There is work to be done still - but mostly by BLACK PEOPLE, but lets stop demanding "Utopia" and recognize that things have changed - for the beter for many. To discredit anyone as "an exception" is to discredit all of the scrifiec and hard work of the majority of black people - who are also not nannies in Park Slope.
It is okay to complain, but it is more important and useful to volunteer, take care of your kids, vote, participate, offer solutions.
Of course, I will wait for the person to post and tell me, that even with those FEW (of many available) examples that I list, that nothing hase changed and that racism is as bad as ever. Again, it is part of the "protest" as personality type who cannot even look at empirical evidence of opportunity and changes n the 21st century and will dismiss all that has been achieved only to complain about a lack of Utopia. -
7180 - interesting perspective indeed.
A 'new racism' characterised as being a far more complex and subtle form of racism which, superficially lacks the traditional emotive denigration of black people, is alive and well in this country. If you see racism solely as a form of interpersonal antagonism it only sanitises it, and also prevents us from defining ourselves as racist unless we feel racial hatred.
The problem is not so much racial discrimination as racial disadvantage. This arises from the inability of the liberal-minded middle classes to perceive the structural advantages which contribute to their own success.
It is the subtle presence of racism in our normal activities, coupled with our failure to make the connections between the personal, institutional and cultural levels of racism which make it so hard for many people to recognise its existence in their particular behavior and combat it effectively.
A right to anything without access to it is no right at all. -
LivetoTravel
Okay...so... we have acknowledged racsim as a reality in 2006 - however, subtle.
Can you please explain and give specific examples of how this Racism has kept you from doing or achieving anything in YOUR life in 2006? -
Livetotravel wrote: The problem is not so much racial discrimination as racial disadvantage. This arises from the inability of the liberal-minded middle classes to perceive the structural advantages which contribute to their own success.
I think you nailed it. Racism is alive and well. We have laws to deal with that, but it doesn't make the disadvantages go away. A lot of hard work is yet to be done.
It is the subtle presence of racism in our normal activities, coupled with our failure to make the connections between the personal, institutional and cultural levels of racism which make it so hard for many people to recognise its existence in their particular behavior and combat it effectively.
A right to anything without access to it is no right at all.
We've won the headline victories, but now it's down to hand-to-hand combat in the trenches. We will not gain that access unless we earn it ourselves and fight for it on a personal, individual level. Sure, there are barriers to entry. And yes, those barriers may take eons to break through in any major rate of success. But, victory is most sweet when accomplished on one's own sweat and sacrifice. -
718 - I think you nailed it - I cant speak to how racism effects Blacks, but as a jew, I more frequently than you might expect hear jewish people speaking about anti-semitism as being a prevelant presense in our society and while it might very well be (I dont see it but hey what do I know) - I think your question regarding specific examples on how it hinders YOU, sort of encapsules all the arguments I have made regarding the tremendous success jews(as a group) have had in this country.
I will say in regards to Livetotravel, again I do not know 1st hand about being the victim of racism but I will say I do know that very few at any level of society (except maybe the very bottom), ever acknowledges the structural advantages one benefits from; and people generally atribute their success only to themselves, worse in my experience most people (again at virtually every rung on the ladder) do not wish to see people coming up from below and tend to root against other climbers - unfortunatly I think alot of this isnt racism but rather another lousy area of human nature. -
Yes,
This is the interesting delima we find ourselves in when discussing “new racismâ€ÂÂ. In Africa (Somalia, Darfur, Sudan, Ethiopia, Uganda, Congo), in the Carribean and the American city, we see black people killing and hurting other black people.
Is this because of yuppies in Park Slope or racists on the Upper East Side? Really?
We seem to blame everyone and everything else on our problems except ourselves.
Black people are the ones hurting black people the most - on all fronts. Not Racism or the media. When a black man kills a black man, its because white people made guns....White people could disappear tomorrow and our probelms would remain the same.
The argument that we are so weak minded and frail that we can be controlled by "outside forces" and have no control over ourselves in our own communities is silly and irresponsible ( use of guns, drugs, violence in our neighborhoods are because of “the manâ€ÂÂ) and is, in and of itself: RACIST.
But the people who use this argument don’t even realize it because they are so busy blaming others in the face of empirical evidence otherwise.
No one is forcing black people to behave the way they do in music videos or in life ( ie: Hard out here for a Pimp… misogyny on INTERNATIONAL TV by black people ). We have choices and opportunities.
Again, let's stop waiting around for some supposed utopian revoltion ( it’s not happening - ever) and take care of our business.
Literally, Put together a business plan and apply for a small busines loan and start a business on Washington Avenue. No one is stopping you.
Let’s stop the "therapeutic alienation" of ourselves and our communities and move on in a positve direction.
Wasn’t Spike Lees movie #1 at the Box office this past weekend?
( But that couldn’t possibly count as progress or success because someone, someowhere hates a black person – we just can’t see it)
Damn, New Racsim strikes again!!!
Jewish people have much to be proud of as they have endured many centuries of hardships.
If you study GLOBAL history you will know that Many people from around the world suffer HUGE modern day tragedies and truimph by sheer willl and perseverence.
I had a cabbie last year from Sudan. His ENTIRE family ( wife, 2 duaghters and brother) were killed.
He was so proud and happy to be in America with the opportunities to start a new life.
He and his cousin were planning on starting their own business in Queens (clothing store).
As I listened to him speak, with all that had happened to him in his life, even with the cabjob that he had, he still had the spirit to understand that he was in control of his own destiny and that as long as he was alive, no one could take that from him – unless he allowed them to.
You see, it would require his cooperation to allow that to happen.
What a fascinating and noble concept to embrace.
LivetoTravel you simply need to travel more.
SevenOneEighty -
"LivetoTravel you simply need to travel more."
7180 - I worked for an international human rights organization for 15 years, have lived in several different overseas locations, and have traveled the world extensively investigating human rights abuses. There is no continent that I have not set foot on. And I've been to Sudan, have you? I've been to Bosnia, have you. I've been to Haiti, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Argentina, Australia and New Zealand, Liberia, the Congo, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Indonesia, China, Sarajevo, El Salvador, Cuba and Chiapas.
After that I investigated the use of the death penalty in the US. Want to learn about more about institutional racism? Look no futher than state sanctioned murder.
For fun my West Indian born wife and I travel, all over, two to three times a year. We're are on our way to Prague and Budapest in 3 weeks and in December we will be in South Africa.
This has turned into a high school debate and has become a bit inane. If you don't get it, then you don't get. We'll all go on to live other days in other ways. But I'll leave you with the words of Martin Luther King.
"Now there is another myth that still gets around: it is a kind of over reliance on the bootstrap philosophy. There are those who still feel that if the Negro is to rise out of poverty, if the Negro is to rise out of the slum conditions, if he is to rise out of discrimination and segregation, he must do it all by himself. And so they say the Negro must lift himself by his own bootstraps. ... Its all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is a cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps.
We must come to see that the roots of racism are very deep in our country, and there must be something positive and massive in order to get rid of all the effects of racism and the tragedies of racial injustice."
It's been fun - but gotta go from this thead
-
Our military budget is bigger than the rest of the world’s nations, combined. we could all happily pay fewer taxes & still have a decent standard of living if we weren’t paying 350 billion to rebuild iraq. In Norway, for example, people get 2 years of maternity leave. It’s because norway is the biggest producer of oil outside of opec, and instead of going to private individuals (like the Bush’s), Norway’s oil profits are put into a trust for the people, to benefit their citizens thru healthcare, education etc.
It was just so ironic to hear Barbara Bush say about the victims of Katrina, “THEY WERE UNDERPRIVILEGED, SO THIS IS WORKING OUT VERY WELL FOR THEMâ€ÂÂ. Her voice was unmistakably snide and she actually chuckled at the end of her statement. Is that not racist?? Ironic because the oil that makes her family so wealthy is refined in New Orleans, probably by some of those victims. She will never have to worry about any hardship. I guess that’s where Bush gets the compassion we saw in his determination to rebuild trent lott’s house.
What bugs me is that we pay SO much money in taxes, and then on top of it I’m asked to donate to everything from buying books for NYC schoolkids to emergency help for Katrina victims (which of course, are worthy causes). Bush’s proposed education cuts in his 2006 budget will target 48 programs that mainly serve to give minorities and poor people more access to opportunities (including upward bound, the Thurgood Marshall Legal Educational Opportunity intended to increase the number of students from low-come and minority backgrounds in law school, the Robert C. Byrd Scholarship Program, the only national, merit-based scholarship program funded through the Department of Education, and Star schools. He’ll save 4.3 billion by doing this, while allocating about 2 billion extra to policing schools, giving corporate style bonuses to teachers & enhancing AP programs that benefit wealthier districts (so we’ll hear that he’s increasing money to education). And at the same time, his 06 budget wants to increase the military budget by 73 billion including 40 billion more on nuclear weapons and 3.4 billion on new army uniforms.
I think people are a bit brainwashed into thinking our govt can’t afford to pay healthcare without raising our taxes, and we’d all have to pay more for decent basic services (which we call ‘entitlements’, as if it’s a dirty word). It goes back to the robber baron age when the carnegies, rockafellers and all those guys stole our national resources, plundered our treasury, and paid educators to spread the propaganda that this country is ‘a field of diamonds’ and that if people weren’t as rich as them it was because of a personality defect. This is the same propaganda that your quote by MLK talks about. This propaganda exclusively benefits the wealthy, and has become part of our national belief system (in modern times it was revitalized by Reagan).
Anyway, livetotravel pls don’t leave this thread. these topics are quite inflammatory but when you talk about poverty & racism it’s hard to not push buttons. I have been agreeing with your comments. I immediately thought of the inequality in death penalty sentencing as well when someone said there were no lynchings in this country anymore. The katrina disaster showed everyone just how brutal the racism still is here.
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