The Downzoning of South slope
As a recent Home owner ( and long time resident of Park slope)I need to Compel you all to stop being so Stupid. It's Stupid of you all to make the assumption that the rezoning will somehow preserve the Look of our beloved South slope. Let's look at the requirements, aside from the Height and set back limitation on an R5B Lot. The first one is the required Parking spaces. My wife and Love the lack of garage doors in the slope. We don't even own a car so when the DOB demanded that we have Parking for 66% or one space for each Tennant I almost balked. I don't want to live in Bayridge, I don't want to live in bayside. I think those neighbor hoods are hideous, and thanks to your wonderfully misguided petitions that's exactly what our neighborhood is going to end up resembling. Here's the irony for all of you retards out there. If one wanted to build a Brownstone today an exact replica of the most wonderful brownstone in Brooklyn, One would not be able to, firstly they would have to provide off street parking( how many brownstones have that?, secondly they would have to have a side yard of At least 8- 10 ' ( maybe more depending on the lot size, Thirdly There could be no parlor floor since as you would be limited to a 30' street wall. So what do we end up with in this Scenario?
We end up with crappy 8 foot ceilings, Tacky white PVC garage doors, Hideous side yards with ugly Barb wired fences to keep out the crack heads and fewer and fewer row houses that formed those wonderful back yard oasis that are synonymous with the slope.
You have successfully ruined our neighbor hood and you only have yourselves to blame.
We had planned to build a wonderful 4 family in character with the Neighborhood, 30 ft High, My wife, children and I on the first floor. Three tenants to help offset the cost of construction. Yes we tore down a termite infested matchbox to build a non combustible structure. Yes, I demolished a wood shanty that was blighted in the south slope because I didn't want my family or neighbors to burn to death. Now I have to try to squeeze 4 parking space onto a 25' wide lot. and where I didn't want to Build a 17 ft wide first floor to do so, A developer will. Your stupid petitions wont stop the market. I look forward to seeing 17 wide 30 ft tall Buildings with 4 parking spaces at the back and even more ironic is those apartments will be rented out because NYC has a housing shortage.
Our Initial Plans for the home entailed a special composition that would have enhanced the look of our block as well as the Living conditions of our future tenants. After the wonderful rezoning we are basically going to build a plain box. No design esthetic just an ugly box with no Depth or dimension to it.
So in conclusion all you have successfully done is put our neighborhood on a sure footed track to become ugly, unsightly and yes an uninspiring place to live. The irony is that what you are trying to preserve was built prior to the 1961 zoning resolution and thusly is not build able. Thanks a lot. I really mean it. Thanks for demonizing my wife and I ( who hold full time jobs) as greedy overzealous developers. I really mean it. Its nice to know our community is behind us!
Oh yea and I almost forgot thanks so much for having no understanding whatsoever about NYC zoning. Our neighborhood was Built prior to the 1961 zoning resolution, I mean 1961? Jeez… black people had to ride the back of the bus in 1961, Do you think its safe to say they knew just as much about zoning back then? for the record Neither my wife or I are black but we think the Back of the Bus Policy was stupid. Just as stupid and the 1961 Zoning resultuion.
Mark Tarver
We end up with crappy 8 foot ceilings, Tacky white PVC garage doors, Hideous side yards with ugly Barb wired fences to keep out the crack heads and fewer and fewer row houses that formed those wonderful back yard oasis that are synonymous with the slope.
You have successfully ruined our neighbor hood and you only have yourselves to blame.
We had planned to build a wonderful 4 family in character with the Neighborhood, 30 ft High, My wife, children and I on the first floor. Three tenants to help offset the cost of construction. Yes we tore down a termite infested matchbox to build a non combustible structure. Yes, I demolished a wood shanty that was blighted in the south slope because I didn't want my family or neighbors to burn to death. Now I have to try to squeeze 4 parking space onto a 25' wide lot. and where I didn't want to Build a 17 ft wide first floor to do so, A developer will. Your stupid petitions wont stop the market. I look forward to seeing 17 wide 30 ft tall Buildings with 4 parking spaces at the back and even more ironic is those apartments will be rented out because NYC has a housing shortage.
Our Initial Plans for the home entailed a special composition that would have enhanced the look of our block as well as the Living conditions of our future tenants. After the wonderful rezoning we are basically going to build a plain box. No design esthetic just an ugly box with no Depth or dimension to it.
So in conclusion all you have successfully done is put our neighborhood on a sure footed track to become ugly, unsightly and yes an uninspiring place to live. The irony is that what you are trying to preserve was built prior to the 1961 zoning resolution and thusly is not build able. Thanks a lot. I really mean it. Thanks for demonizing my wife and I ( who hold full time jobs) as greedy overzealous developers. I really mean it. Its nice to know our community is behind us!
Oh yea and I almost forgot thanks so much for having no understanding whatsoever about NYC zoning. Our neighborhood was Built prior to the 1961 zoning resolution, I mean 1961? Jeez… black people had to ride the back of the bus in 1961, Do you think its safe to say they knew just as much about zoning back then? for the record Neither my wife or I are black but we think the Back of the Bus Policy was stupid. Just as stupid and the 1961 Zoning resultuion.
Mark Tarver
Comments
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Dude you are fighting an uphill battle if you think you will ever get people in Park Slope to stop signing petitions. The rest...is there an article about this or something, some extra background would be nice...
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Subject: But wait Theres Moore..........
The 1961 Zoning Text has nothing to do with the needs of todays Inhabitant nor does it promote better housing.
In fact, New York City’s once sensibleâ€â€Âand simpleâ€â€Âzoning laws have been replaced over time with an extraordinarily complex system of regulations that reflect the aesthetic principles of the individuals on the city’s Planning Commission as much as, if not more than, they do the appropriate safety, quality of life, and other public use considerations that make for good zoning regulations. How did this unfortunate transformation take place, and, just as important, what can we do about it?
New York’s Sensible First Zoning Laws
New York enacted the first zoning regulations in the United States over 80 years ago. The 1916 Zoning Resolution was straightforward: to protect existing buildings and public spaces by limiting the size of new buildings, as well as the number of activities the city permitted them to harbor. These two dimensions of zoningâ€â€Âthe “architectural†and the “land use,†we’ll call themâ€â€Âboth made good sense. Limiting the size of new buildings was important because massive buildings cut off light and air from their neighbors, attract heavy traffic on streets and sidewalks, andâ€â€Âin the case of residential buildingsâ€â€Âovercrowd transportation facilities, schools, and parks, and thus lead to excess demand on public services. Controlling the uses of buildings, though, was just as significant, for the noise, odors, traffic, crowds, and disorder that certain activities generate in a residential or an office district could quickly dissipate the atmosphere that had made the district attractive in the first place.
The 1916 zoning law served the city well, its simplicity and reasonableness encouraging a robust level of building virtually unimaginable today. Indeed, it wasn’t until the 1930s that New York City even established a Department of City Planning. Gotham launched the new department to explore how the city might accommodate its general growth, its prospective economic and demographic changes, and its future needs. Along with the Department of City Planning, the city formed a Planning Commission, chaired by the department’s head. The Planning Commission was charged not only with planning but also with the capital budgetâ€â€Âa schedule for spending borrowed money on permanent municipal improvements, such as the construction of parks, schools, and city highways.
When the Planning Commission first set to work, the fiery Fiorello LaGuardia was mayor. A strong leader, suspicious that any relaxation of his authority would allow Democratic adversaries to restore the corrupt atmosphere of earlier administrations, LaGuardia stubbornly refused to cooperate with the commission, and kept it firmly in check, unable to do any serious planning. It wasn’t until 1953, with the election of Robert F. Wagner as mayor, that the Planning Commission began to emerge from its LaGuardia-imposed obscurity, and take on the powers it possesses today. The new mayor had in fact previously served as the commission’s chairman, so he was much more favorably disposed toward it than was his predecessor.
Wagner appointed real-estate developer James Felt as his Planning Commission chairman. Felt had not left his successful real estate consulting business, though, to preside over a powerless planning commission. In fact, he fully expected to take major steps toward making New York City’s physical shape fit his vision of its future economy and population. Realizing that he had little direct control over development by the municipal government, he concentrated instead on stimulating and regulating the private sectorâ€â€Âthe presumption obviously being that Felt knew better. The Planning Commission began its practice of importing a centralized vision into the process of determining what wouldâ€â€Âand would notâ€â€Âget built. Felt’s chosen instrument for guiding private construction was new zoning regulation, setting the 1916 zoning law on the path to extinction.
By the late 1950s, it had become clear to many architects, builders, academics, and city-loversâ€â€Âincluding Feltâ€â€Âthat New York’s architecture lagged behind the world’s best. No longer was New York on the cutting aesthetic edge of architectural development. Many professionals held the 1916 Zoning Resolution responsible for the sterile shapes of high-rise buildings, whose mandated set-backs at fixed floor levels produced what many architects reviled as the “wedding-cake†cliché. They praised instead European Towers in the Parkâ€â€Âthin shafts surrounded by open public spacesâ€â€Âas a model architectural style. And critics didn’t just restrict themselves to aesthetic considerations. They claimed, too, that zoning did too little to produce “mixed-use districts,†where residents could conveniently find new products traditional neighborhood stores could not afford to carry.
The Zoning Resolution of 1961: Needless Impediment to Growth
By the beginning of the sixties, then, everything was in place for a far more intrusive zoning regime in the city. Felt’s desire to micromanage economic planning and land use found its legal embodiment with the Zoning Resolution of 1961, which replaced the simple “unrestricted†districts of 1916 with three types of “manufacturing†districts graded, in effect, by the kind of neighbors each would produce. The M-1 district, the least offensive, permitted “well-behaved†manufacturingâ€â€Âjewelry and clothingâ€â€Âproducing no smoke, no smell, little trucking, off-street parking, with everything enclosed and safely under cover. Unobtrusive M-1 manufacturing was thus acceptable close to residential areas. Because M-2 districts permitted higher levels of noise and pollution, the new resolution placed greater restrictions on their location. M-3 districts allowed all manufacturing permitted in the other two districts, and then some, subject only to federal, state, and city limits on pollution and noise.
Felt mapped extensive M-1 Zones in outer Brooklyn and some parts of Queens because he foresaw that manufacturing was bound to move out of Manhattan as its land would inevitably become more valuable for new high-rise residential and office building construction than for retaining old-fashioned six-story factories. Felt thought he would give the displaced manufacturers a chance to build efficient, one-story plants on cheap M-1 land. But when manufacturers thought of moving, they did not simply move out of Manhattan; they went all the way to Sri Lanka and other faraway places where land was cheap, and labor even cheaper. Since builders and bankers were afraid that residential building would be hard to sell or rent in a manufacturing zone, much M-1 remains empty almost forty years after it was so zoned.
The 1961 Zoning Resolution, by adding layers of complexity to the categorization of city property, gave a boost to the Planning Commission’s power to regulate the city’s development, and put a damper on building that still suffocates it, thirty-seven years later. The complexity wasn’t just a result of trying to produce the desired economic and land use outcomes, though that certainly played a part. To turn zoning from a mere set of proscriptions to a substantive aesthetic code for New York architecture, Felt began reducing the permissible floor area of new high-rise Manhattan structures by about 15 percent below the 1916 formula. Then he offered a floor area bonus of as much as 20 percent, if the builder agreed to incorporate several design features favored by the commissionâ€â€Âsuch as a plaza open to the public or an arcade with shops. Ultimately, a longer list of “bonusable†amenities became mandatory in specially designated zoning districts, as zoning moved from telling a builder what he couldn’t do and started telling him what he must do. In shortâ€â€Âand this is the central flaw of the new lawâ€â€Âthe 1961 Zoning Resolution made the Planning Commission a full partner in the design of privately owned and financed buildings, not to meet standards of safety, as in the Building Code, but to meet criteria that the planners themselves found desirable.
Zoning Micromanagement Leads to Failure
This expanded role for zoningâ€â€Âboth economic and aestheticâ€â€Âbrought with it new difficulties, no doubt unanticipated by its designers, difficulties that reveal the sharp limits to the human ability to successfully plan human affairs. During the John V. Lindsay Administration (1966-73), for example, city planners feared that office buildings would invade Times Square, demolishing theaters and changing the character of the world-famous entertainment district. The planners imposed a lower-than-normal floor area on new office buildings in the Times Square district. Then they offered floor-area bonuses to builders who would include a commercially sized theater within an office building. Yet economics resists miracles and overly ambitious planners: only one builder went ahead and built a theater. The initiative ran aground when Broadway found itself suffering a theater glut, not a shortage.
Joel Banker, a distinguished developer of New York apartment houses, illustrates further the problems created by “incentive zoning†in a special district. “Since we were in the Lincoln Center Special District, we got a bonus for putting in an arcade, but that bonus just about covers what we lost from the special setback regulations in the district. What we lost was rentable space in our residential buildings. And while we gained some rentable space in the arcade, the open space we had to create was not rentable. It also involved us in maintenance and even some policing costs that we certainly did not want and that lowered our net return on investment below what it would have been without the incentive zoning.â€ÂÂ
Banker and his associates are now looking outside New York City for building sitesâ€â€Âa direct consequence of the overly intrusive and complex zoning regulations made possible by the 1961 Zoning Resolution. “No longer can an architect look at the zoning map and tell you exactly what you can build on it,†he maintains. “If you are thinking of something special, you have a problem whose solution is very time-consuming and expensive.â€ÂÂ
It is clear, then, that the changes the Planning Commission have introduced are problematic, and it’s clear, too, that the 1961 zoning law was no improvement on its predecessor. Beyond question, the planning agencies have grown in power since the enactment of the Zoning Resolution of 1961. The commission’s recommendations depend on the research of the Department of City Planning which, ultimately, depends on its staff’s ability to forecast. And forecasting in human affairs, as most of us now know after a twentieth century which has seen the idea of centralized planning thoroughly demolished, is no easy task. With the increased complexity of zoning regulations, aesthetic and land use considerations weighing heavily in any decision, changing the zoning of an area in the city has become a Herculean taskâ€â€Âeven though the existing zoning might have produced, as is likely in no-growth New York, little development in that area.
An Agenda For Reform
A few changes in the way planning and zoning gets done could free up greater possibilities for getting the city growing once again. Here are three suggestions.
Sunset zoning provisions. Every proposed change in land-use zoning by the commission should be accompanied by a written explanation of what the commission expects the change to accomplish. Once a change has been in effect for five years, a petition for review of its effect, signed by 1,000 New York City residents, would mandate a Planning Commission hearing to determine whether the change should stand, or be modified or be replaced. This reform would make the Planning Commission more accountable to the public, and force it to consider pluses and minuses outside its own aesthetic criteria.
End architectural “correctness.†Speaking of aesthetic criteria, the commission should devote less attention to architectural style and minor amenities and concentrate its efforts on finding ways to eliminate land-use obstacles to useful development. New York’s building has ground to a halt over the years, and needs to be jump-started.
Liberalize zoning regulations to encourage a flexible, pro-growth environment. The current regulations for changing zoning are heavily weighted to forbid the introduction of buildings that differ significantly from those allowed by existing use, bulk, parking, and traffic-generating regulations. “Big box†stores, to take one example, are often prevented from launching, even though they have proved economically successful elsewhere in the state and nation, and extremely popular, particularly with lower-income families.
In short, New York’s 1961 zoning law encouraged micromanagement of decisions best left to the market within a simplified regulatory frameworkâ€â€Âas had been in place earlier in the century. They have clearly played a part in discouraging new building in New York. Yet without new building, a city stagnates at best, and more likely begins to spiral downwards. Zoning laws should not just reflect the aesthetic views or economic second-guesses of elites, but should express the interests of the city as a whole. Who can deny, after more than three decades of gradual deterioration of New York’s buildings, that New York needs to rethink its approach to zoning, and that its current zoning laws fail the city’s wider interests? -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
MarkTheMagnanimous wrote: We don’t even own a car so when the DOB demanded that we have Parking for 66% or one space for each Tennant I almost balked.
I have never heard of that. That is really interesting considering that the government is asking us to cut back on fuel and we live in a city that asks you to take public transportation instead of cars. I hope you can appeal this and I hope you win. -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
stacey wrote: [quote=MarkTheMagnanimous]We don’t even own a car so when the DOB demanded that we have Parking for 66% or one space for each Tennant I almost balked.
I have never heard of that. That is really interesting considering that the government is asking us to cut back on fuel and we live in a city that asks you to take public transportation instead of cars. I hope you can appeal this and I hope you win.
Not defending the rule but assume the reason is additional housing units mean less on-street parking. OP doesn't have a car but who knows about his potential 3 tenants? -
1) We can all agree that city red tape is a pain in the neck.
2) (1) does not apply in specific circumstances if you are able to use it to your advantage to annoy somebody else.
3) People around here, like, hate building and stuff. Witness the Commerce Bank flap on 5th avenue - and all that replaced was a lot with a bunch of derelict vehicles.
4) An appropriately dressed mannequin (think DNC buttons, maybe some Birkies) on 7th avenue could probably get a few hundred sigs in favor of starving cats or something.
I'm clear on the fact that you're pissed. Is it the city or the petition hounds that are your primary problem here, ie, do the petitions involve you specifically or just general zoning? Does one feed the other? If 1961 goes away, does that solve your problem? Anyone involved with the other side of this situation want to weigh in? I'm pretty curious now. -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
linusvanpelt wrote: Not defending the rule but assume the reason is additional housing units mean less on-street parking. OP doesn't have a car but who knows about his potential 3 tenants?
I know where you are coming from but if this relates back to 1961 when there were a lot less cars then it really doesn't make sense at all. I have seen so many developments that have not had on site parking I am just wondering why they are giving the poster such a hard time.
I can understand if its is a development like the one across from me on Underhill where parking would be very difficult (school zone, fire zone, etc) but a four story home? -
there must be loop holes you can exploit!
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Are we suppossed to know what you are talking about????? Cause beyond figuring out you are against the downzoning of SSlope I have no idea what you are talking and why you are calling everyone stupid.
Try cutting back on the coffee -
friendlypitbull wrote: Are we suppossed to know what you are talking about????? Cause beyond figuring out you are against the downzoning of SSlope I have no idea what you are talking and why you are calling everyone stupid.
he wants to build a 4 family house. but in doing so he is force to make 4 parking spaces cause of the law.
Try cutting back on the coffee -
Now the gigantic red Borg cube they constructed on Classon and St Marks... thats what they should be trying to stop.
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Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
stacey wrote:
This is one of many things I can't make sense of from his rant. He seems to be angry at his neighbors for supporting the downzoning, suggesting that he wd not be in this plight if they hadn't. But if the fault is with zoning rules on the books since 1961, then I'm not sure how this is his neighbors' fault, or what they should have done otherwise. Refused to have their neighborhood downzoned unless the city also agreed to comprehensively rework a half-century-old zoning system?
I know where you are coming from but if this relates back to 1961 when there were a lot less cars then it really doesn't make sense at all...
I dunno, and I'm not about to reread the massive posts to figure it out. I'll wait for the Cliff's Notes. -
Subject: RE: My Gripe
My gripe is with the South slope community Board because we should be Pushing for "Land Mark" Status in Liue of downzoning. Look at queens, I mean? ....its ugly. so Where the intentions where Noble they where also very misguided. The Road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think alot of the Newer developments are Well, lets just say tacky. At least landmark would dictate the design esthetic in liue of the size and set back thus giving us more well needed housing without the cheesy crap they seem to be putting up now.... -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
MarkTheMagnanimous wrote: You have successfully ruined our neighbor hood and you only have yourselves to blame.
I am sorry, am I supposed to now be feeling sorry for developers? The new victims? My liberal pity only stretches so far. Sorry you aren't able to build your multi-million dollar project and have it paid for by renters. Very tragic. Where's the petition--sign me up.
We had planned to build a wonderful 4 family in character with the Neighborhood, 30 ft High, My wife, children and I on the first floor. Three tenants to help offset the cost of construction. Yes we tore down a termite infested matchbox to build a non combustible structure. Yes, I demolished a wood shanty that was blighted in the south slope because I didn’t want my family or neighbors to burn to death.
Mark Tarver -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
MarkTheMagnanimous wrote:
And Im sorry That you probably inherited your home from your prarents who paid fifteen thousand dollars for it. I'm sorry that I actually worked very hard and lived in a shit hole in liue of a nice area so I could actually afford to have a dream home in brooklyn, Oh yea I'm especially sory for wanting to provide "normal sized" bedrooms for tennants in liue of These shity ones that brokers call "huge" did I mention How sorry I am for being a renter whos now an owner and swore I'd never be as shity a landlord as 99% of the Brooklyn landlords are...Wait asec I'm not sorry at all. I just think your the one who's sorry that if you where in my position youd move to the pocconnos or florida and not stay in brooklyn...just like the guy I bought the house from....But if you do want to sign up go to http://www.southsouthslope.com/about
I am sorry, am I supposed to now be feeling sorry for developers? The new victims? My liberal pity only stretches so far. Sorry you aren't able to build your multi-million dollar project and have it paid for by renters. Very tragic. Where's the petition--sign me up.
P.S dont hate the player hate the game -
Hey Mark maybe you want to just rant but if not how about you introduce yourself and then slowly and clearly explain what your gripes are...
generally speaking calling everyone stupid and then continuing with a 10,000 word post isnt the best way to win friends and influence people. -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
MarkTheMagnanimous wrote: And Im sorry That you probably inherited your home from your prarents who paid fifteen thousand dollars for it. I'm sorry that I actually worked very hard and lived in a shit hole in liue of a nice area so I could actually afford to have a dream home in brooklyn,
Whoa. Relax. Uhm, actually I bought a coop with no help from my parents, sold it and bought a house--One in which I wouldn't need to have tenants help pay the mortgage. Nothing personal, I just didn't feel comfortable being a landlord, even a benevolent kindly one. -
friendlypitbull wrote: Hey Mark maybe you want to just rant but if not how about you introduce yourself and then slowly and clearly explain what your gripes are...
generally speaking calling everyone stupid and then continuing with a 10,000 word post isnt the best way to win friends and influence people.
I'm sorry Guys. didn’t mean to come off as Hostile. But for the record I do feel that the south slope community board is well...as i stated stupid...a better or more Adult word would've been "short sighted". In a Nut shell all the homes in the slope that we envy, all the gardens that make our hearts swoon, all that Park slope is and ever could be was built well before the silly zoning resolution of 1961 and look. Look at what we built!
we dont need the government or Community boards to build decent, attractive housing. and lets face it there are some homes in the hood( And we all know which ones I'm talking about) that have a well needed appointment with the wrecking ball, and when that day inevitably arrives what do we as a community want to see rise up from the debris? do we want to see an 8' space to the next building with a driveway? do we want to see a garage door? The Answer is No. What I would like to see is a full Lot Home no taller then the next, With a Garden in the front yard. Prime example look at the ugly building with the hideous Terraces On Union Between 4th and fifth. Also Note the wonderfully attractive wheel chair lift... Is this what we really want? One Word “LANDMARK†-
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=MarkTheMagnanimous]And Im sorry That you probably inherited your home from your prarents who paid fifteen thousand dollars for it. I'm sorry that I actually worked very hard and lived in a shit hole in liue of a nice area so I could actually afford to have a dream home in brooklyn,
Whoa. Relax. Uhm, actually I bought a coop with no help from my parents, sold it and bought a house--One in which I wouldn't need to have tenants help pay the mortgage. Nothing personal, I just didn't feel comfortable being a landlord, even a benevolent kindly one.
yea but you live in kennsington you broke bastard....lol -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
Anonymous wrote:
Guess what? I like it here. It is what the slope used to be before it became the stodgy upper east side. I was more than happy to dump my coop, sell it to one of the four investment bankers fighting over it and run.
yea but you live in kennsington you broke bastard....lol -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Anonymous]
Guess what? I like it here. It is what the slope used to be before it became the stodgy upper east side. I was more than happy to dump my coop, sell it to one of the four investment bankers fighting over it and run.
yea but you live in kennsington you broke bastard....lol
lol, and i like buttery chardonay..so there...hey wait a sec I'm not a guest anymore....... -
Anonymous wrote: [ Prime example look at the ugly building with the hideous Terraces On Union Between 4th and fifth. Also Note the wonderfully attractive wheel chair lift...
Wow you are cold - yes the building is horrible - but the wheelchair lift is for someone in a wheelchair - sometimes astetics has to give way...give the guy a break - he cant walk! -
friendlypitbull wrote: [quote=Anonymous][ Prime example look at the ugly building with the hideous Terraces On Union Between 4th and fifth. Also Note the wonderfully attractive wheel chair lift...
Wow you are cold - yes the building is horrible - but the wheelchair lift is for someone in a wheelchair - sometimes astetics has to give way...give the guy a break - he cant walk!
sorry pitbull. The wheelchair lift is required, weather or not the owner is disabled(which he is not, its for sale). All buildings 4 stories or over are required to be ADA compliant. Even the house Im building has wheelchair access, though my wife and I are far from disabled. Just another example of the Zoning thing... -
Subject: Re: The Downzoning of South slope
kensingtonmom wrote:
Are you the arbitrator of the obvious tastes that you have read about in New York Magazine? There is not one aesthetic in the world and people with wheelchairs do need acess to their homes--even if it can't be featured in Architectural Digest or would it look more tasteful to have someone crawling up their front stoop on their hands and knees? Or maybe those people aren't attractive enough to be living in the slope--they are welcome out here in Kensington. bye bye before I find myself in the middle of another heated argument.
lol, and i like buttery chardonay..so there...hey wait a sec I'm not a guest anymore....... -
I normally try to be very polite in such situations as these.
But MARK, you are an ass.
Yup, I said it (against my better judgement)
No matter how right you may be, you ruin it all by calling people stupid, retards (not a nice label), and claiming that people inherit their homes from their wealthy parents.
I am sorry if you think you are the only hardworking New Yorker.
Dont making sweeping assumptions.
How old are you? It's people like you who bark and bark but never get their point across because they use the wrong dialogue.
NOT TO MENTION being passive aggressive.
"I'm sorry I work Hard..."
"I'm sorry I lived in a shit hole..."
Cry me a river man.
You start pointing fingers and calling people names I can guarantee people will stop listening.
Yes this is a forum, but to start this dialogue with calling basically everyone but yourself stupid is ridiculous and typical of people like yourself (admitted blanket statement).
You are, most certainly, part of the stupidness. Even if you have a valid point, it no longer matters. You ruined you point.
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Markthemagnanimous wrote: sorry pitbull. The wheelchair lift is required, weather or not the owner is disabled(which he is not, its for sale). All buildings 4 stories or over are required to be ADA compliant. Even the house Im building has wheelchair access, though my wife and I are far from disabled. Just another example of the Zoning thing...
ADA compliant does not mean a wheelchair lift is required as for the property in question, although I never saw the occupant, the apartment with the lift appears occupied. -
friendlypitbull wrote: [quote=Markthemagnanimous]sorry pitbull. The wheelchair lift is required, weather or not the owner is disabled(which he is not, its for sale). All buildings 4 stories or over are required to be ADA compliant. Even the house Im building has wheelchair access, though my wife and I are far from disabled. Just another example of the Zoning thing...
ADA compliant does not mean a wheelchair lift is required as for the property in question, although I never saw the occupant, the apartment with the lift appears occupied.
nope, that building on Union is totally vacant
and the builder is trying to sell it
Mark, I'm glad you're dialing it back. I stopped reading at boldface You Stupid blah blah rant so I have no idea what you're talking about.
I know I don't like the rezoning along Fourth Ave that is giving us all these damn hi-rise apt buildings. -
pitu wrote:
Ok - well I can tell you for sure - wheelchair lifts are not a requirement - I am sure a ramp would have sufficed.
nope, that building on Union is totally vacant
and the builder is trying to sell it.pitu wrote: I know I don't like the rezoning along Fourth Ave that is giving us all these damn hi-rise apt buildings.
While I am sort of upset about my blocked views, I have to say that walking down 4th Ave was always beyond depressing and these new buildings will/should add life to an otherwise bleak stretch. BTW did you notice they are starting on another (12 story) one where the garages are behind McDonalds. -
pitu wrote: I know I don't like the rezoning along Fourth Ave that is giving us all these damn hi-rise apt buildings.
friendlypitbull wrote:
it's totally a "don't take my sunset away" reaction on my part
While I am sort of upset about my blocked views, I have to say that walking down 4th Ave was always beyond depressing and these new buildings will/should add life to an otherwise bleak stretch. BTW did you notice they are starting on another (12 story) one where the garages are behind McDonalds.
I moved to Brooklyn for low rise housing, with all the qualities that conveys on a neighborhood.
I agree that the tire shops of 4th Ave aren't much to look at, but it's more an artery than a local street
all that and the sheer volume of people - the R train is such a crazy slow mess as it is . . . -
Ok - well I can tell you for sure - wheelchair lifts are not a requirement - I am sure a ramp would have sufficed.
You coulndt fit a Legal Ramp in the aloted space at the fron of that house
a ramp to that elevation would be 18 linear ft long. Believe me they would have put a ramp in ( much more cost efective) if they could fit it. The wheel chair lift was required for the 4th Apartment. Mark the mag was wwong all New building over 2 family required wheel chair access and no less then 1 ADA compliant bathroom. -
SlimB wrote: I normally try to be very polite in such situations as these.
Wow….. name calling. ..calling me an "Ass" tit for tat?
But MARK, you are an ass.
Yup, I said it (against my better judgement)
SlimB you’re a worthless cunt. Yup I said it(it felt good)
Your probably the type to get angered if someone types in all caps in a chat rooms or email…likes it’s yelling. I can assure you all caps is not like yelling. Just as surely as I can attest to the fact that if you met me in “real life†you would see a dynamic well balanced individual some one far from an ass. So I pose the question, Slim if you where walking down fifth avenue and I shouted "hey stupid!" would you turn around? I wouldn’t turn around. because I don’t answer to stupid. In stating this I pose two additional questions. The first are you on the south slope community board? If so then you are justified in your assumption that in fact yes I am calling you and specifically you and your board stupid. The second if you are not on the south slope community board, why do you think i am calling you stupid? ...stupid. :twisted:
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