It's not easy being the village raising a child...
Subject: It's not easy being the village raising a child...
I guess I startled her. I was riding the C train this afternoon having picked up my son at PS 261 where he is a first grader. We boarded the first car. It was earlier than normal so rather the tired commuters it was a mix of adults, parents and young children and teenagers. We were standing next to a young lady, about 14, who was having one of those remarkably foul-mouthed conversations with her classmates half way down the car. "Nigger, he fucking has a lot of bitches." "Naw, he's never had no bitches." "No bitches are going to fuck him, nigger."I leaned over a whispered to her "please remember there are children around you, including my son. Could you watch your language, it's not a great model for him." She was stunned, and began to complain (loudly) why I was picking on her when the other "niggers were saying shit too." I leaned over again (I am a 6'4" white guy with a shaved head), and said "You are right, it's just that you are right next to us, and please, it's hard for me to tell him why the word nigger is bad when you are using it all the time." She still wouldn't look at me, but said (loudly) "end it, end it," which I did.
We got off the subway at Clinton-Washington (no great surprise there). One of her friends shouted to me that I was a psycho as the doors closed. In the end I am glad I spoke to her. She is perhaps right that I might not have said anything if she were a bit older, a male or "rougher." Despite their language I got the sense that these were alright kids letting off steam at the end of the day. And while I think I would have apologized (and would now) if caught fouling the ears of children or the elderly (I don't count myself in that latter category yet!), I felt that my point was made in a fairly non-confrontational and reasonable way.
It just reminded me that the size and complexity of the city can give a fals sense of anonymity and lawlessness in public.
Comments
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not much to really say about this.
But you thought they were ok kids? (the ones using foul language)
Then you are a better man than I. I see them as punks who are not raised properly with no respect for others. And if they keep going in that direction, they will be a burden on society.
Comments to you like "end it end it" show a lack of respect or even caring. -
hitokiri, you hit the nail on the head - they sound like tomorrow's criminals. Also, to use the "n" word not only shows lack of respect for others, but it shows deep self-loathing. I've never known anyone with pride and self-respect to use that word.
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I guess my point was that I thought they were being jerks but were not "bad seeds." Thus I felt both safe to say something and thought it might be productive. I am not sure why the girl did not apologize and tried to brush me off. I suspect she may have felt embarrassed and wasn't sure what to say. We forget that teenagers, either because they haven't been raised well, or more generously are still trying to figure out what it means to be human, often don't know what to do in social situation. This may have been aggravated by my rather intimidating (if I dare say so) figure. I'm a big guy; I have a deep voice; I don't think she saw it coming. But perhaps if we lived in a more civil society, she should have expected to be reprimanded by adults in that setting.
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you did the right thing. they were probably ok kids, teenagers just act loud & unruly because they are showing off for their friends and because they're hyper. trust me, those kids probably had home training but they were acting wild just cuz they're out in public. of course they're not going to act chastised and say sorry in front of you because they are not going to be seen as backing down in public. i think you handled it well.
i know 2 19/20 yr olds who cuss and say bitch and nigga in front of younger kids too, and it's because that's what they do when they're at home and all that, but it's just that little kids around them are taught that THEY can't say those words around adults, because they will be beat. -
It might be better if you tell your kids in advance not to behave like the dumb people in the world outside because you cannot control the world outside.
Maybe you should tell your kids why specific words are evil and should never be spoken by honorable people.
Much of the media these days is full of bad words. You could be standing on a sidewalk with your kids when a car drives up blasting a song of bad words. -
Hmmm. Not sure where that leaves civilization, but I am sure that is a pragmatic stance. Did you interpret me asking a teenage girl not to curse in front of my son as wishing to "control the world"? Or are you just expressing the obvious that life in New York is a bit rough around the edges?
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Putnam-denizen wrote: Hmmm. Not sure where that leaves civilization, but I am sure that is a pragmatic stance. Did you interpret me asking expressing the obvious that life in Newa teenage girl not to curse in front of my son as wishing to "control the world"? Or are you just York is a bit rough around the edges?
I've heard foul-mouthed suburban and country jerks outside of the city. I think white kids in suburbia say the "N" word more than anyone else on the planet.
I MIGHT be obvious to New York being rough...I honestly don't know. I've seen some crappy places outside of New York, so I believe that NY is not the crappiest place.
To back you up, I have gone to Whole Foods many times in California and the staff was almost too friendly. When I went to Whole Foods ONCE in Chelsea/Manhattan, the staff was grouchy.
At least in the city, your kid has more options when it comes to hanging out with other kids. If you live in a small community and most of the neighbors' kids are jerks, your kids might get stuck hanging out with jerks. -
1. Kids are kids people.
2. Kids will cuss and not give a tihs. Any color.
These kids in particular have probably never had it pointed out to them the example they are setting.
I would have probably approached it a bit differently.
I would have asked them for their ear as a group for a moment. Then pointed out your concern.
Where you expecting her to look like the cornball goody 2 shoes and repeat you issues? You instead gave her the opportunity to act like a spoiled brat show off. -
mantic wrote: 1. Kids are kids people.
really? from the story, doesn't sound like he had much time to call a town hall meeting before he got off at his stop.
2. Kids will cuss and not give a tihs. Any color.
These kids in particular have probably never had it pointed out to them the example they are setting.
I would have probably approached it a bit differently.
I would have asked them for their ear as a group for a moment. Then pointed out your concern.
Where you expecting her to look like the cornball goody 2 shoes and repeat you issues? You instead gave her the opportunity to act like a spoiled brat show off.
p-d i think you did the right thing. -
i think you did, too.
i know the perception is that teenagers will never do what a strange adult tells them to, but i've found that's not always the case. and i'm a short, white lady who looks younger than i am. (uh, very awk sentence. sorry.) generally, i've had good results when i speak up -- not angrily or rudely, but respectfully firm -- to ask kids to pick up the litter they've dropped in front of my house or put back the shopping carts they've been wrecking havoc with. what's more, i've often had them even apologize.
to be fair, my friends have also said i have "the Mom vibe".
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mantic wrote: 1. Kids are kids people.
Not sure what you meant to say with your "cornball" sentence. The response I got was sort of what I expected. I just felt like it needed to be said. The whole speach to a group wouldn't have worked - they were all spread out and my experience is that speaking to a group encourages stupid responses. I wanted it to be a one on one chat rather than a stranger taking on a crowd. But perhaps I did have a slight fantasy that other adults would have stood up and taken on the child nearest to them. Then we could have burst into song. Hey it's New York!
2. Kids will cuss and not give a tihs. Any color.
These kids in particular have probably never had it pointed out to them the example they are setting.
I would have probably approached it a bit differently.
I would have asked them for their ear as a group for a moment. Then pointed out your concern.
Where you expecting her to look like the cornball goody 2 shoes and repeat you issues? You instead gave her the opportunity to act like a spoiled brat show off. -
For what it's worth, Putnam Denizen, I think you handled the situation very well. The chances that your words would have had any effect other than laughter and insults with a group of teenage girls on the subway were slim to none. However, this one girl had an obvious reaction (for better or worse) to your words and who knows, maybe she thought about them later on and will think twice about her language in the future. Good for you for saying something and tying to be constructive about it.
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[quotethey were all spread out and my experience is that speaking to a group encourages stupid responses.
You got a stupid response anyway.I wanted it to be a one on one chat rather than a stranger taking on a crowd.
Fireside on the train. Wine and cheese too?
If your going to make the step, do it the best way or dont do it at all.
Waiting for other adults to take on the child nearest them? If you thought your initiative to have a fireside chat with the one closest to you would spark spontaneous morality amongst you, I've got a bridge for sale that comes with a lifetime bus pass.
All I am saying is this, you did what you thought was best. Perhaps you should have turned your attention to your child and had the discussion with them about how rude and nasty some people can be and not to grow up like that.
Taking on teenagers is a task all unto itself that one must be prepared for. They can be complete idiots. -
To OP, well done sir.
Even the best teenagers are often loud, stupid and extravagantly vulgar, and as noted, for no other reason than they're just acting out for their friends and full of sass.
I know my daughter and I will be in similar situations soon, and I hope I act as well as you did. -
BoogieKnight wrote: To OP, well done sir.
Agree. One of the most consistent things I've seen in my life is that American teenagers are horribly obnoxious no matter the region, environment, class, or race.
Even the best teenagers are often loud, stupid and extravagantly vulgar, and as noted, for no other reason than they're just acting out for their friends and full of sass.
I know my daughter and I will be in similar situations soon, and I hope I act as well as you did.
They're all annoying on the whole.
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I totally understand P-D. I would have done the same thing. By the way, how is P.S. 261? My children attend P.S. 38 and I am looking to transfer them? P.S. 38 is horrible.
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We are very happy with 261. You should be advised that there may be a non-aggression pact between the principals of PS 38 and PS 261 in which PS 261 is not allowing PS 38 kids to transfer in. When we applied we ended up having to use my address rather than that of his mom's to get around that.
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Teenagers are idiots. Period.
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i have seen wild, disrespectful gangs of teens on the g train on a regular basis. i for one don't care if they are "showing off" in front of their friends, the vulgar language, the throwing of chip bags, the shoving and pushing, the bouncing of basketballs, the hitting, screaming, pushing each other off the train at each stop is a sorry testimony to how these animals have been raised. as another commentator mentioned earlier, i can just imagine what their homes look like/operate. if kids have been taught manners at all, they would not act like the animals they are - period. they are a product of their environment - the parents don't give a crap and neither do a lot of these kids.
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P.S. 38's principal is very difficult to work with and she isn't very receptive to parents and at times can be condescending. I realize that dealing with the NYC Board of Education is very difficult and frustrating.
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I guess it shouldn't be surprising that some people respond to me story with "they are animals" or "they come from bad homes." I don't agree, and was more curious if others had attempted to exercise some village parenting. While I hope that my seven year old remains courteous and civil, I suspect there may be a time when he and some friends forget where they are and need a reminder. Write off teenagers as animals because they are loud or messy or vulgar seems a bit short-sighted. And they may come from very nice homes - or not. I would agree that I find that harder to believe when they refer to women as bitches or each other as niggers (using the term "niggas" is just a cop out to me).
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PD
I have to respectively disagree. Why should it but up to us to help raise others' kids? Don't we all have enough to do to raise our own kids without having to be part of a village of people helping to raise others? I stand by my theory that if kids had a proper upbringing where they learned respect and manners, there would not be an issue but since there is, I can not surmise anything else except that they have not been taught manners and respect. Other kids exhibihit manners and respect and even say please, thank you and excuse me. -
Well obviously that is your choice. And I guess it is an answer to the question I was asking. You would then obviously disagree with the cliche that "it takes a village to raise a child." In a city divided and enriched by socially constructed identities such as race, ethnicity and class, it is unclear who is inside the village and who is outside. I guess if I lived where my dad does in rural Vermont (not where I grew up) - I might be more empowered to say something to an unruly kid because I would know her or I could say to her mom next time I see her that Janice was being a jerk at the country store. In NYC life in the streets gives us all a sense of anonymity and invisibility. This can encourage (or not discourage) a host of annoying immature behavior on the part of teenagers and yunger children (and adults as well, but for the purpose of this thread I grant that I don't think it is my responsibility to "raise" an adult). Similarly it can spread a sense of irresponsibility among adults. She's not my kid, I can say to myself, and someone else should raise her. True, but is there not a role for us all to nudge errant teens and kids back into civilized behavior? I clearly answer yes, and you clearly answer no. Both responses carry with them risks and rewards.
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When it comes to seeing these teens acting a fool in the public space, I put them in their place . . . I have all types of conversations with them . . . scolding them for their outrageous public behavior. Telling them to demand more of themselves. My mouth never moves. I never make eye contact. The only perceived gesture I ever make is to look away and scowl with disgust. They continue with their shenanigans. But, in my head, I am the village.
Ironic thing is, I work in a youth development program with teens from Central Brooklyn. So I see and actively correct this type of behavior all the time. But for some reason I can never bring myself to address it when I see it out in public with teens who are not under my "watch". Some of it really is just teens being teens, and it just manifests itself differently because it happens in the context of the hood. But too much of it is pure inexcusable ignorance.
The reality is, a lot of these teenagers were raised by teenagers themselves. And they are growing up in a "village" of adults who just ignore them -- either because we feel its not our problem (though it is), or we excuse it as just normal teenage behavior (which is an understatement) or we don't feel that it is appropriate to step in (which is misguided).
Teenagers need guidance, and for many in the hood, they just aren't getting it. At least not from the right places. I really appreciate your story P-D.
There's a powerful speech by Dr. Julia Hare of the Black Think Tank offering a very interesting perspective on this:
"[Government] did a grand thing when they took that discipline from us. Because when they made our parents afraid to discipline the children. Then what happened? We found out that the teachers were afraid of the principals. The principals were scared of the superintendent. The superintendents were scared of the school board. The school board was scared of the parents. The parents were scared of the children. And the children ain't scared of nobody!"
(4:55 - 5:23) -
Although you probably did the right thing, I have a different perspective on it. I grew up in this city when it was at it's roughest. My parents never sheltered me in the slightest and I'm glad they didn't. I'm not shocked by anything now and I feel stronger for it. I'm not telling you how to be a parent, but I think kids can learn from the bad as well as the good.
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Hmm. If I were sheltering my son I wouldn't send him to public school or take him on the subway. I am not sure what a seven year old learns from teenagers cursing and using racist and sexist language without consequences in front of him and his father. I guess I was making sure the teenager wasn't sheltered from ME and MY VALUES....
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I remember being a teenager and cutting a fool on the buses and in the street when we were let out of school. The thing that got me was that one day, as I was walking down the street with my buddies talking loud I ran smack into my mom and that ended that loud talking LOL.
Most of these kids are not bad, they are showboating for their friends and trying to uphold their status and trying to break into adulthood. It is a very confusing time and personally, I think you did the right thing. Just a comment from someone, will get a kid to thinking even if they will not let you know it.
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