Should SODA Ban Kids?
Comments
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meganlibrarian wrote: Either way, that dad should've taken the screaming baby home. :roll:
yeah, that was pretty much my point. instead, he was cuddling it in the crook of his left arm and chugging a dentergems with his right. it seemed weird.
:idea: :idea: :idea: -
My two cents:
BARS ARE FOR GROWN-UPS.
Plain and simple. -
Tony Balls wrote: My two cents:
BARS ARE FOR GROWN-UPS.
Plain and simple.
Agreed.
Caveat: Unless the owners say otherwise, like the folks at Soda.
Again, business owners set the rules for their establishments -- not the customers -- based on their desire for what clientelle they wish to attract and what kind of money they want to bring in. -
sterling2000 wrote: business owners set the rules for their establishments... based on their desire for... money.
quote edited for your convenience
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rhodamine wrote: last night at soda, some guy was in the side room, drinking a beer, a squaling, screaming infant in his arms. within about 10 seconds, the whole side room had relocated to the main room.
Well, that's poor judgement and being inconsiderate of other patrons. If my kid was doing that, I'd pick up and leave in the interest of good manners.
not making any judgment here, just passing on somethign i saw that seemed germane to this conversation.
The same should go for a loutishly drunk adult who is also dragging down other people's good times.
No matter the age, there ought to be a base-level of acceptable public politesse. -
rhodamine wrote: [quote=sterling2000]business owners set the rules for their establishments... based on their desire for... money.
quote edited for your convenience
gracias -
i wish soda allowed dogs....
seriously folks, i think the main issues here are courtesy and civility. i am equally offended by a child, person on cellphone, canine, don juan (or juanita), couple, fratty group, etc, if they are behaving inappropirately for the setting/in a way that offends or annoys people who are sharing the space. and who feel entitled to do so, for some reason. that being said, i have experienced much more frequently non-child perturbances than ones related to obnxious kids/parents at soda.
i pretty much agree that kids should not be there after 9 and not at all if they can't deal with bar-decorum. and that parents should anticipate that their children will witness non-kid-friendly stuff that is acceptable bar behavior among adults, but that is not g-rated. and be prepated to deal with that, too. at places like belleville on fifth and robin du bois on smith, there are always kids hanging out while their parents drink. and they are either well-behaved or being quickly taken home.
confession: i love kids, dogs, and bars. not in that order. -
Medusa wrote: [quote=wrecky718][quote=alafairnadia]gosh, my parents obviously made some serious missteps, taking me to pubs in europe and latin america when I was an impressionable child. now I'm all grown up and I have a great job, health insurance, a nice 401(k) and I own my own apartment. my parents were obviously completely unfit - the influence of those pubs while I was growing up turned me into the leech on society I am today. I apologize on their behalf.
Again there is a difference in culture and lifestyle in Europe and Latin America, where alcohol is not as taboo as it is in the U.S (same thing like a bar with food and a restaurant that serves booze) I am sure that most people that have been to bars as children (I am one as well, my father owned bars right here in CH/PH) are very well adjusted people that own apartments, have a great job, have health insurance a nice 401K, does that make it right to do it? Maybe you could have owned a house, been retired by now, and on to your second career as a poet by now if you never stepped foot in a bar until you were 21 (the last part is a joke)
[/snark]
Yeah, dude, maybe if your parents hadn't blown all their money on travel and booze you'd have started your own foundation to support abandoned ferrets.
Soda is a European kind of place. That's what many of us like about it.
I'd love to hear from someone who has a kid who feels that Soda is a bad place to take them.
"European kind of place" or not its a bar... and the intial issue was whether or not kids should be there, not and what our parents might or might not have done, or if we have 401k's.
And I hate ferrets. -
Innocent X wrote: [quote=wrecky718]Again there is a difference in culture and lifestyle in Europe and Latin America, where alcohol is not as taboo as it is in the U.S (same thing like a bar with food and a restaurant that serves booze)
Because alcohol is taboo in the US you shouldn't bring kids in but you can in Europe because it's okay? I don't get what you're saying at all.
The most telling statement you make in all your posts, wrecky, is "if I was a parent..." You're not a parent and you basically admit that you don't want to be because you don't want to lose all your freedoms and not be able to go to the bar on a Friday afternoon. Because of that choice that you made (or are making) you only want to be around people who made the same choice. You certainly don't want to be around parents who are a bit more progressive and don't believe they have to shut their own life up in a box just because they had a child, which is, by your posts, what you believe you should do. Sort of narcissistic no?
See dev is smart: he no like kids so he goes to bars where they won't be. Hence, he doesn't go to Soda.
No I'm not a parent, I work with children. I see what not setting boundaries for kids does to their development. But to your point , what is "progessive" about having a child in a bar? It seems that the narcissism might be with the person that considers themselves "enlightened" enough to bring their child into a bar, no?
By making a choice not to take a child into a pub, is that the only option to get out of the"box"? Seems like that would be the opposite of being an progressive parent. -
Working with children and being a parent are quite different. Didn't John Wayne Gacy work with children? It's just a different thing. It's ignorant to think otherwise.
Boundaries, sure, those are important. You think a kid knows he's in a bar versus anywhere else though? What's the difference to the kid where he is? Sure, a kid should behave and a parent should make sure that their child doesn't disrupt the good times of other people --- I don't think anyone disputes that. The guy who let his kid carry on and wail in the bar, that isn't cool. I don't like stepping in dog shit either. But I'm not going to say people in the city shouldn't have dogs (well, I might say that sometimes).
But to say the kid shouldn't be there in the first place? That's your own thing, that's the narcissistic attitude. You don't want to see them so they shouldn't be there. You think them being there has something to say about the lack of boundaries the parent puts up for the kid, some idea you have about parenting in general that you gained from your time working with kids. You seem to want people who have kids to either shut themselves up in their apartments or only go to the Tea Lounge or better yet, move to a suburb. Come on. You live in a metropolitan area. You live in a city. Kids walking the streets, kids talking out loud, kid going into bars --- that's part of the deal of living here. If you don't want that, maybe you should shut yourself up in your aparment or live in a suburb. The bars up there, I bet there's a way less likely chance you see a kid.
After no kids in bars, what's next? No blacks? No Hispanics? No Peter Dinklages? Make the gays have their own bars? Jam the homeless into the sewers? *Gasp* This is a cross-cultural, cross-economical, cross-generational city you live in, my intolerant friend. This is what you have to deal with if you want to live here. -
Innocent X wrote: Working with children and being a parent are quite different. Didn't John Wayne Gacy work with children? It's just a different thing. It's ignorant to think otherwise.
For some reason your post seems to be an attack on me personally and not the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not kids should be at soda. My opinion is no they should not be. John Wayne Gacy comparisons aside that is my opinion. To make the jump to banning blacks, (I am) gays (ditto) is just that a huge jump and one that some use to ban say gay unions, (two guy get hitched the next thing you know men and dogs etc). To say that I'm intollerrant, because I don't think kids should be in a bar shows your intolerance to my point of view.
Boundaries, sure, those are important. You think a kid knows he's in a bar versus anywhere else though? What's the difference to the kid where he is? Sure, a kid should behave and a parent should make sure that their child doesn't disrupt the good times of other people --- I don't think anyone disputes that. The guy who let his kid carry on and wail in the bar, that isn't cool. I don't like stepping in dog shit either. But I'm not going to say people in the city shouldn't have dogs (well, I might say that sometimes).
But to say the kid shouldn't be there in the first place? That's your own thing, that's the narcissistic attitude. You don't want to see them so they shouldn't be there. You think them being there has something to say about the lack of boundaries the parent puts up for the kid, some idea you have about parenting in general that you gained from your time working with kids. You seem to want people who have kids to either shut themselves up in their apartments or only go to the Tea Lounge or better yet, move to a suburb. Come on. You live in a metropolitan area. You live in a city. Kids walking the streets, kids talking out loud, kid going into bars --- that's part of the deal of living here. If you don't want that, maybe you should shut yourself up in your aparment or live in a suburb. The bars up there, I bet there's a way less likely chance you see a kid.
After no kids in bars, what's next? No blacks? No Hispanics? No Peter Dinklages? Make the gays have their own bars? Jam the homeless into the sewers? *Gasp* This is a cross-cultural, cross-economical, cross-generational city you live in, my intolerant friend. This is what you have to deal with if you want to live here.
What does being in a cross cultural, cross economical, etc city have to do with some bars, nice bars, cross cultural bars letting or not leting children into them. -
You're saying someone doesn't belong somewhere, what's the difference who the someone is? If you're black and gay, it makes your argument against kids being in bars quite interesting to say the least.
"What does being in a cross cultural, cross economical, etc city have to do with some bars, nice bars, cross cultural bars letting or not leting children into them."
Because what is a city if not a place where all are mixed together. Even those crazy, undisciplined kids and their annoying parents.
I'm fine with you having an opinion. I'm just giving mine back. -
Innocent X wrote: You're saying someone doesn't belong somewhere, what's the difference who the someone is? If you're black and gay, it makes your argument against kids being in bars quite interesting to say the least.
Mixing adults gay, straight black white rich poor does not compare to children and adults a bar. The child doesn't make the decison to walk into a bar, or on the same level, being a child is not a culture, economic state of being, or a sexual preference, its a state of development. Just as you would not let a 6 year old into an "X" rated movie one should not be in a bar. It has nothing with excluding the child, it is that just as with an adult themed movie, a child should not be exposed things that might occur in a bar. That's the difference in not letting a child into a bar from excluding black adults, gay adults, poor adults, etc from a bar.
"What does being in a cross cultural, cross economical, etc city have to do with some bars, nice bars, cross cultural bars letting or not leting children into them."
Because what is a city if not a place where all are mixed together. Even those crazy, undisciplined kids and their annoying parents.
I'm fine with you having an opinion. I'm just giving mine back. -
child-ness, unlike race, sexual orientation, and what have you, is a category of temporary difference. that is an important distinction. all those children (who, for what it's worth, i like seeing at soda, etc.) will one day be adults. so that's one reason an argument in favor of limiting their access to anything (like, say, pornography, cigarettes, liquor, and steering wheels) is not the same as an argument in favor of limiting access to adults of one or another category.
that said, i do wonder what exactly is going to happen to the little munchkins at SODA that's so terrible. i mean, if people want to keep them out of bars because it impacts their own experience of being at said bars, that's one thing, but some of the arguments here seem to summon the spirit of Bad Parenting in a way i find bewildering. -
sorry for redundant post -- ours must have crossed in the mail. erm, ether. something.
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You're excluding parent w/child as much as just excluding child though aren't you?
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What exactly is so adult about a bar anyway? What happens there that a kid shouldn't see? I don't see the similarity to pornography.
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And intolerance is intolerance no matter what sort of distinction you're trying to draw.
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er, so having been at soda friday, saturday and sunday (yes, I do have a life outside of the place -- sometimes I go a whole week without being there!!), I witnessed children ONLY ONCE. well, let's bear in mind that on friday, I got there post-babies, and on saturday, I got there at like 1:40 a.m. (again, I do have a life - I also like to support local DJs, etc), and also missed the plethora of wee-ones allegedly overrunning the joint.
on sunday afternoon (yay, carnivore is back in brooklyn!), though, babies were everywhere, and it was WONDERFUL. the best, though, was the baby totally PROPPED up in the corner of a sofa. like. lounging. I almost asked the parents if the baby had scotch in his/her bottle but I kinda didn't want to be an asshole. though I did stop dead in my tracks, point, and laugh. so I guess I was an asshole. in any case. YAY BABIES AT SODA!
and toly was totally walking around with muk's kid-bit. so cute! -
That reminds me - on Sunday, my husband and I were enjoying some drinks at The Gate. A table over, two guys were sitting and drinking while one guy's son was chilling on his lap. That baby was so incredibly well behaved, just relaxing and smiling at everyone. Good times.
(And yes, I thought of this discussion thread as I looked at the baby.) -
[quote=wrecky718]Just as you would not let a 6 year old into an "X" rated movie one should not be in a bar.
Key Difference:
Child at X rated movie: against the law
Child at bar: not against the law (they just need to be accompanied by an adult -- see Section 260.21 of NYS Penal Law)
Aside from laws which we should all abide by, owners can set their own rules, provided they don't infringe on other laws (i.e. the "separate but equal" comments above that lead to racial discrimination) . As stated throughout this thread, the discussion here is kind of moot, as the owners and management of Soda have made the choice to allow children into their establishment. For a child-free space, go elsewhere (i.e. Mooney's). There are really a lot of bars in Brooklyn and NYC from which to choose.
As much as everyone would like to think they have the power, the government and business owners set the rules for their establishments. It's not really a majority rules situation -- it's dollar-rules capitalism. -
I would take my daughter to a crackhouse if they served Delerium and chicken BLTs.
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Innocent X wrote: What exactly is so adult about a bar anyway? What happens there that a kid shouldn't see? I don't see the similarity to pornography.
On that note, what happens in a porno that a kid shouldn't see? Porn isn't bad for your liver, doesn't kill brain cells, thousands of people don't die each year from driving under the influence of porn, men don't tend to watch porn and then beat their wives, get into brawls, or commit other crimes, and when you watch porn you don't get a hangover the next day. I'd say if you compare the two, porn comes out on top as appropriate to expose to children.
(Don't get me wrong, I love a good beer now and then too.)
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