prospect heights (Franklin and st johns)
Comments
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Regardless of the "blurry lines", I think we can all agree that Franklin Avenue is definitely NOT Prospect Heights and that is what the OP is asking about right? So...
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xlizellx wrote: there are no facts - this is merely tradition. it's a name people gave to a random section of Brooklyn. It's not based on landforms or water or anything - just people decided "these blocks" were called one thing and others were called something else. much like the Little Italy section of Manhattan has shrunk, why can't a neighborhood grow?
This isn't some natural evolution. This is real estate hucksters trying to trick gullible people who don't know better in order to make a buck. -
ChristinafromBklyn wrote: Regardless of the "blurry lines", I think we can all agree that Franklin Avenue is definitely NOT Prospect Heights and that is what the OP is asking about right? So...
Exactly! -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=xlizellx]there are no facts - this is merely tradition. it's a name people gave to a random section of Brooklyn. It's not based on landforms or water or anything - just people decided "these blocks" were called one thing and others were called something else. much like the Little Italy section of Manhattan has shrunk, why can't a neighborhood grow?
This isn't some natural evolution. This is real estate hucksters trying to trick gullible people who don't know better in order to make a buck.
It really couldn't be stated better than that. -
stah00 wrote: Thanks ntfool. Made me feel better. Are there many people getting off subway at that hour during the week and are there many people out in general at that hour. Thanks
Anytime! I wouldn't say that there are many people, but I guess it all depends on the night. There may be more people getting off (or on) the subway at 11:pm on a Friday night than a Tuesday.
Also, I would say that yes, there are usually a fair amount of people hanging out, particularly on the four corners of Franklin and Lincoln and just a few feet past towards St. Johns, in front of 95 South (a bar). You may also get some decent-sized crowds on Franklin at the southwest corner of St. Johns due to Franklin Park, another bar, near that corner. But again, I've never had a problem, nor has my wife. Honestly, this is a neighborhood just like any other in this city, if you are out and about looking either scared, lost or both, you'll probably get harassed. If not, its fine.
I would encourage you to not be like many, if not most of the newer denizens of the neighborhood, those who walk around with their heads squarely aimed down at the sidewalk or in an iPod daze, seemingly never acknowledging the folks around them. All it takes is a smile or a head nod of greeting as you pass by, and you may find yourself eventually becoming friendlier with lots of your new neighbors. Try becoming part of the community instead of being detached from it and this really is a great place to live.
Oh, just out of curiosity, why is there such a push to rename the neighborhood anyway? Why do you Prospect Heights interlopers have a problem living in Crown Heights? -
homeowner wrote: BTW, the other historic name is Crow Hill.
That would be my suggestion, too! -
ntfool wrote: Oh, just out of curiosity, why is there such a push to rename the neighborhood anyway? Why do you Prospect Heights interlopers have a problem living in Crown Heights?
I think there are a couple of reasons that people want to call this area Prospect Heights. I think on a sort of superficial level, it's to make the area sound like a better place to live/visit by disassociating it with some of the more negative connotations that come with the label "Crown Heights" (e.g., race riots). Sort of like if you can't afford to live in Prospect Heights, well, make Prospect Heights come to you by just calling the area you live in Prospect Heights.
On a more fundamental note, I think people want to call it Prospect Heights because the area between Washington and Franklin just seems different than the rest of the Crown Heights. I had a friend who lived out on Kingston and Bergen and he called the the Washington-Franklin area Crown Heights just because it was like night and day from where he lived. I mean it really does feel like a different neighborhood from the rest of Crown Heights. Not to say it feels like you're in Prospect Heights when you're there...
That said, I vote Crow Hill. -
Well, I'd say Franklin & St John's is both Crown Heights and Crow Hill but not Prospect Heights. It is also nothing like Brooklyn Heights. It is however, full of gorgeous buildings, friendly families, and yes...loud drug dealers who will primarily stay out of your way if you stay out of their's.
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dayman wrote: [quote=ntfool] Oh, just out of curiosity, why is there such a push to rename the neighborhood anyway? Why do you Prospect Heights interlopers have a problem living in Crown Heights?
I think there are a couple of reasons that people want to call this area Prospect Heights. I think on a sort of superficial level, it's to make the area sound like a better place to live/visit by disassociating it with some of the more negative connotations that come with the label "Crown Heights" (e.g., race riots). Sort of like if you can't afford to live in Prospect Heights, well, make Prospect Heights come to you by just calling the area you live in Prospect Heights.
On a more fundamental note, I think people want to call it Prospect Heights because the area between Washington and Franklin just seems different than the rest of the Crown Heights. I had a friend who lived out on Kingston and Bergen and he called the the Washington-Franklin area Crown Heights just because it was like night and day from where he lived. I mean it really does feel like a different neighborhood from the rest of Crown Heights. Not to say it feels like you're in Prospect Heights when you're there...
That said, I vote Crow Hill.
Eh. There's also a world of difference between the Prospect Heights up along the Vandy bar crawl and the one down along Lincoln. Don't see much effort to split that neighborhood up by different naming conventions. I think the reasoning probably has a lot more to do with your former explanation than your latter. And I agree with you, it is pretty superficial.
Get over it people, you live in Crown Heights. And its not like that's a bad thing. -
Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights!
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Jack Krohn wrote: Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights!
And the sky is green. -
Jack Krohn wrote: Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights! Prospect Heights!
I see you've studied under the Rove/Cheney school of "If we repeat it enough times it becomes true." -
We live on Eastern Parkway right at Franklin. It's Crown Heights. Please stop bullshitting yourself-- it's sad enough that realtors do it.
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TeReKeTe wrote: Please stop bullshitting yourself-- it's sad enough that realtors do it.
Ya know what? If I want to say I live on frickin' Mars, I can. I'll call my 'hood whatever the frick I want.
Besides, I've been describing the area within Washington/Franklin and Atlantic/EP. Even if Classon is the outward boundary there is no reliable historical evidence that this area is Crown Heights. The Kenneth Jackson book cites no historical sources. Beyond that, I echo what another poster stated, which is (1) the defined boundaries are debatable at best; and (2) neighborhoods can change. In the words of Ben Affleck in the Boiler Room, "That's it I'm done." -
Can't we all just get along?
Love,
Carl and Dick -
sillybilly wrote: Ya know what? If I want to say I live on frickin' Mars, I can. I'll call my 'hood whatever the frick I want.
Sure you can. But calling it that won't make it Prospect Heights any more than it will make it Mars. -
sillybilly wrote:
How about asking anyone who has lived there more than two minutes? Please. You moved to Crown Heights. Rep your hood proudly. Ask any cop and they'll tell you its CH. Ask any long-term resident and they'll tell you its CH. The 1978 study by the Landmarks Presevation Commission calls this area Crown Heights. The Brooklyn Jewish Hospital was always located in Crown Heights. Back in the 40's and 50's when the neighborhood was 80% white it was Crown Heights. How much more historical evidence do you want?
there is no reliable historical evidence that this area is Crown Heights.
Lets have some real talk. What makes that part of CH "feel different" is the fact that in the last five years its been populated by a large number of young white singles and families. You may want to believe that inherently makes it "different" but the reality is that other than that recent change there is very little difference in those blocks and streets east of Classon. You can call it the lower East, East Side but its still Crown Heights. -
Subject: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
Prospect Heights is 11238 south of Atlantic Ave. So that corner is TRULY the end/border of PH. If you cross the street it's 11216 or whatever the CH zip code is. Prospect Heights High School is on the east side of Classon Ave. if that gives more clarity.
I've lived here for 30 + years, (more than 5 minutes) and I do agree its not like CH proper a la Nostrand or Utica.
All that being said, I do believe the clamor to rename is in part to reflect the new racial composition of the neighborhood. I've been feeling a tension as of late in the neighborhood, which is also reflected on these message boards. I really don't wish to incite some big argument, but NY is a melting pot and the latest people moving in are behaving as if they wish they were back in Minnesota. It's frustrating when friends of color report being given dirty looks and general coldness/rude behavior with subtext being please hurry up and move out so I can tell my friends back in Minnesota that I live in Brooklyn but truth be told I am completely uncomfortable with diversity. I've travelled the world and I guarantee you the best thing about NY, esp BK is the diversity (not bars, restos) and that doesn't mean living in the neighborhood next to different people it means living in the neighborhood WITH different people. That means kids play together, we eat in the same restaurants, and all are welcomed at different bars, we go to community board meetings TOGETHER to fight for a safer neighborhood. Keep up the dirty looks and this place will be as wack as Minnesota or Detroit for that matter. If that's what we want we can all move to those cities where it damn sure doesn't cost $500k for a 1br. At the rate we're going Michelle Obama could be walking down St John's and be given a dirty look by one of the self-purported Minnesota "hipsters." -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
beeninbrooklyn wrote: Prospect Heights is 11238 south of Atlantic Ave. So that corner is TRULY the end/border of PH. If you cross the street it's 11216 or whatever the CH zip code is. Prospect Heights High School is on the east side of Classon Ave. if that gives more clarity.
Very, very well spoken. Exactly what I was trying to get at in an earlier post, but much more well thought out.
I've lived here for 30 + years, (more than 5 minutes) and I do agree its not like CH proper a la Nostrand or Utica.
All that being said, I do believe the clamor to rename is in part to reflect the new racial composition of the neighborhood. I've been feeling a tension as of late in the neighborhood, which is also reflected on these message boards. I really don't wish to incite some big argument, but NY is a melting pot and the latest people moving in are behaving as if they wish they were back in Minnesota. It's frustrating when friends of color report being given dirty looks and general coldness/rude behavior with subtext being please hurry up and move out so I can tell my friends back in Minnesota that I live in Brooklyn but truth be told I am completely uncomfortable with diversity. I've travelled the world and I guarantee you the best thing about NY, esp BK is the diversity (not bars, restos) and that doesn't mean living in the neighborhood next to different people it means living in the neighborhood WITH different people. That means kids play together, we eat in the same restaurants, and all are welcomed at different bars, we go to community board meetings TOGETHER to fight for a safer neighborhood. Keep up the dirty looks and this place will be as wack as Minnesota or Detroit for that matter. If that's what we want we can all move to those cities where it damn sure doesn't cost $500k for a 1br. At the rate we're going Michelle Obama could be walking down St John's and be given a dirty look by one of the self-purported Minnesota "hipsters." -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
beeninbrooklyn wrote: Prospect Heights is 11238 south of Atlantic Ave. So that corner is TRULY the end/border of PH. If you cross the street it's 11216 or whatever the CH zip code is. Prospect Heights High School is on the east side of Classon Ave. if that gives more clarity.
Ok. First, my zip is 11238 and I live west of Classon, so I'm not sure I understand that point. Second, while I've am admittedly "new" to this CH/PH neighborhood, I am not new to Brooklyn. Indeed I've lived in Brooklyn for over 9 years and NYC for a total of 20 years (and was born and raised on LI). And it is PRECISELY the reason of diversity that my wife and I chose to live in Brooklyn and this neighborhood in particular (and leave the Slope). Hey, if I didn't like diversity, I'd live in Cold Spring Harbor. Third, the one fella who pointed to the "evidence" of the old-timers knowing this neighborhood as CH is, I admit, compelling. Fourth, I am certainly no "hipster" (far from it in fact), though you wouldn't know that since you don't know me. Fifth, I am a humanist; I like people, and a variety of cultures and nationalities. I don't give people who look different from me a "dirty look" (though I have on occasion received a few). I also fully understand though what my purchase of a home in this neighbor can mean (both good and bad) to many folks who have lived here far longer than I. But I'm not rich either (though not necessarily poor); I'm a civil servant just trying to make a better life for me and my family and own a piece of the rock. So finally, alls I'm saying is, if my house is marketed as PH it'll fetch a bigger return than if it's CH. That is (an unfortunate) fact. But a fact it is. I actually love the CH moniker, but when the time comes to sell (in 10 years at this rate), it's going to be a PH designation. Peace.
I've lived here for 30 + years, (more than 5 minutes) and I do agree its not like CH proper a la Nostrand or Utica.
All that being said, I do believe the clamor to rename is in part to reflect the new racial composition of the neighborhood. I've been feeling a tension as of late in the neighborhood, which is also reflected on these message boards. I really don't wish to incite some big argument, but NY is a melting pot and the latest people moving in are behaving as if they wish they were back in Minnesota. It's frustrating when friends of color report being given dirty looks and general coldness/rude behavior with subtext being please hurry up and move out so I can tell my friends back in Minnesota that I live in Brooklyn but truth be told I am completely uncomfortable with diversity. I've travelled the world and I guarantee you the best thing about NY, esp BK is the diversity (not bars, restos) and that doesn't mean living in the neighborhood next to different people it means living in the neighborhood WITH different people. That means kids play together, we eat in the same restaurants, and all are welcomed at different bars, we go to community board meetings TOGETHER to fight for a safer neighborhood. Keep up the dirty looks and this place will be as wack as Minnesota or Detroit for that matter. If that's what we want we can all move to those cities where it damn sure doesn't cost $500k for a 1br. At the rate we're going Michelle Obama could be walking down St John's and be given a dirty look by one of the self-purported Minnesota "hipsters." -
I lived on Franklin Ave for years and now live on Park still east of Classon and have always been 11238
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If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one it hit.
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Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
sillybilly wrote: So finally, alls I'm saying is, if my house is marketed as PH it'll fetch a bigger return than if it's CH. That is (an unfortunate) fact. But a fact it is. I actually love the CH moniker, but when the time comes to sell (in 10 years at this rate), it's going to be a PH designation. Peace.
This is really what it's all about. Thanks for being honest about it. Everyone knows it's Crown Heights, but when it comes down to people's economic self-interest they're willing to lie about it. I'm not saying I would do anything different if I was in your place. But all this "controversy" about a totally uncontroversial border (Washington) is all about obfuscation for the real estate market. -
caseopele wrote: If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one it hit.
Whatever dude. :roll: -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
Carnivore wrote: Everyone knows it's Crown Heights, but when it comes down to people's economic self-interest they're willing to lie about it. I'm not saying I would do anything different if I was in your place. But all this "controversy" about a totally uncontroversial border (Washington) is all about obfuscation for the real estate market.
Well, there are "lies" and there are "lies" i.e., misrepresentations or failures to disclose that would be illegal when selling real estate. For example, if there were major structural flaws in a home that the seller failed to disclose to the buyer, that would be illegal under NY (and most state) law. The neighborhood designation falls far from an illegality, especially since there is, arguably, some room for debate. Probably the thing to do is say the area is the "Prospect Heights/Crown Heights border area." Caveat emptor baby. -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
beeninbrooklyn wrote: Prospect Heights is 11238 south of Atlantic Ave. .
1. So I'm actually a geographer by training....
and actually what I was saying was that Washington is not the border. How else does one explain Prospect Heights High being on Classon Ave. How many neightborhoods are only 3 streets long? Vanderbilt thru Washington? Methinks not. So I don't think it's a lie to call it that.
My larger point had more to do with what's going on in the neighborhood in order to extinguish the controversy about this area being Prospect Heights - Tension and general not-niceness.
But if you want to continue debating the point consider this: Prospect Heights is the name for Prospect Hill. If you want to know the beginning and end of Prospect Hill just walk those streets (sterling-prospect are best). You'll feel the end of Prospect Hill just before the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. That's why 11238 ends at on the West End of Franklin - one does not traditionally create a border in the middle of a block (ie where the Hill ends in the middle of the block b/w Classon and Franklin) So if you want to be complete textbook about it, if you live west of the shuttle your in PH, east of it CH. -
Subject: Re: The Westside of FA ends PH...so not PH
beeninbrooklyn wrote: 1. So I'm actually a geographer by training....
<citation needed>
and actually what I was saying was that Washington is not the border. How else does one explain Prospect Heights High being on Classon Ave. How many neightborhoods are only 3 streets long? Vanderbilt thru Washington? Methinks not. So I don't think it's a lie to call it that.
My larger point had more to do with what's going on in the neighborhood in order to extinguish the controversy about this area being Prospect Heights - Tension and general not-niceness.
But if you want to continue debating the point consider this: Prospect Heights is the name for Prospect Hill. If you want to know the beginning and end of Prospect Hill just walk those streets (sterling-prospect are best). You'll feel the end of Prospect Hill just before the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. That's why 11238 ends at on the West End of Franklin - one does not traditionally create a border in the middle of a block (ie where the Hill ends in the middle of the block b/w Classon and Franklin) So if you want to be complete textbook about it, if you live west of the shuttle your in PH, east of it CH.
No one is saying PH is just Vandy to Washington, by the way. The borders are Atlantic, Flatbush, Washington and Eastern Parkway. -
right...the north and south boundaries are assumed, i was referring to east to west, The "no one" you are refering to is extending the neighborhood to 3 or 4 (if you include flatbush) blocks at best when on average bjkyn neighborhoods span 6 or 7.(eg park slope is 7 aves east west and @ 20 north to south) fyi, techinically prospect hill extends slightly south of eastern pkwy ...or are you saying that the brooklyn museum is in lefferts gardens?
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beeninbrooklyn wrote: right...the north and south boundaries are assumed, i was referring to east to west, The "no one" you are refering to is extending the neighborhood to 3 or 4 (if you include flatbush) blocks at best when on average bjkyn neighborhoods span 6 or 7.(eg park slope is 7 aves east west and @ 20 north to south) fyi, techinically prospect hill extends slightly south of eastern pkwy ...or are you saying that the brooklyn museum is in lefferts gardens?
Technically, it's in neither neighborhood, since Empire is the border between Crown Heights and PLG. I think it's fairest to say that the Museum is bordered by Crown Heights and Prospect Heights, since one side faces Prospect Heights and the other side faces Crown Heights, and it's across the street from both of them. -
sillybilly wrote: [quote=caseopele]If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one it hit.
Whatever dude. :roll:
I live in Crown Heights but I didn't take offense to what beeninbrooklyn wrote because I know I'm not one of the people described. You took what he wrote personally and defended yourself vigorously. If you are not one of those people then you shouldn't have felt the need to defend yourself. Follow me, dude?
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